Cyprus-Forum.com

[samarkeolog]

What I am saying is clear: A person with language X and religion Z can not be of the same Ethnicity as as a person with language Y and religion N. Not in Cyprus, not anywhere. (unless one of the two assimilates into the other)

Yes, nationalists prefer assimilation or exclusion; but there are Creole cultures and hybrid ethnic groups.

In our case non of what you said applied. What we wanted is our freedom and self-determination and we were forced to fight for it because the imperialists wouldn't give our rights after we have been asking for them for decades. Beyond that, the TC minority could choose for themselves if they wanted to be the same with us or different. Up to them.

Beyond that if you want to believe the imaginary theories of Boyd, or even create some more of your own, go ahead.

What about the theories of the UN peacekeeper?

Stick to the facts. You run out of facts to support your claims and now you employ theories which were made for 63 to explain 58

I was using the word theories as a joke. They were not the peacekeeper's theories; they were facts, and EOKA had the same ideologies and the same ideologists as Akritas.

there was no EOKA in 1963

Yeah, sorry, I made a point of writing Greek Cypriot nationalist extremists to include EOKA and Akritas, but I forgot once. But Akritas had the same ideologies and the same ideologists as EOKA. Was Akritas any more different from EOKA than TMT was from Volkan?

I'm not blaming Greeks. But I'm not blaming Turks either. I'm blaming the nationalist extremists and foreign imperialists who destroyed the country.

So are you labeling almost every Cypriot a "nationalist extremist" because we wanted our freedom and self-determination and we fought for it ?

I say, I'm not blaming most Cypriots, I'm blaming a small minority of extremists. You say, I am blaming most Cypriots... Most Cypriots did not want to burn down coffeeshops, or homes, or villages, or to make other Cypriots refugees. Most Cypriots did not want to attack or murder other Cypriots. Only a small minority did. They were extremists. They destroyed the country with the help of foreign imperialists.

Are you going to try to accuse me of blaming most Cypriots again? The only way you could do that would be to tell me that most Cypriots wanted those things to happen. If that were true, then yes, I would blame most Cypriots; but as far as I know, that wasn't true. Are you telling me that most Cypriots wanted to terrorise and murder and ethnically cleanse? If not, please, stop telling me that I'm blaming most Cypriots.

Most Cypriots wanted what EOKA (1955-59) wanted.[/quote]

But for different reasons. Nationalists wanted unity with Greece to protect them from Communism. Socialists wanted unity with Greece to protect them from capitalism and nationalism.

So it is one and the same. Both the majority of Cypriots and EOKA wanted the self-determination of Cyprus and union with Greece and were ready to fight (this means kill) those who denied to us our freedom and self-determination, be it British or those who collaborated with them for this purpose. You can't separate EOKA from the general population because EOKA was supported by the general population. EOKA were our fighters. So if you want blame EOKA then you have to blame all of us, bar the ones who collaborated with the Imperialists.

Don't associate unarmed, anti-nationalist Greek Cypriots with armed, nationalist Greek Cypriots' murders of Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, and Brits. EOKA and Akritas should take responsibility for their own actions; they should not expect their victims to blame themselves.

If during that time some individuals within EOKA used their position for actions beyond their duty, then blame those individuals nor our whole EOKA freedom fighters who, I repeat, had the support of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

What happened in 1955 was a revolution of the Cypriot people against the foreign colonialists.

This revolution happened only after our calls for freedom and self-determination were being refused to us for many decades.

Our revolutionaries had the support of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

The aim of the revolution: freedom, self-determination and union with Greece, had the support of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

This doesn't mean it had the support of the 100% of people. There are always some minorities which do not support a revolution. (e.g. the "Loyalists" in the American Revolution)

A Revolutions are violent and people die.

During Revolution there is anarchy and some individuals might use that anarchy to settle different kind of accounts.

So, do you recognize the right of Cypriot people for self-determination and the right from union with Greece if this was the democratically expressed wish of the majority of Cypriots? Yes or NO?

Do you recognize the right of the Cypriot to revolt and start an armed struggle after the above rights have been refused to us for decades? YES or NO?

Also in an earlier post I asked you to tell me the difference between the three biggest Greek islands: Cyprus, Crete and Rhodes, and why Crete and Rhodes should be part of the Greek Republic and Cyprus should have not been allowed back in the 50s or even earlier. (if that is is what you think) You didn't reply to this question.

[/quote]

I accept the right of self-determination. But if you demand self-determination for Greek Cypriots, you demand it for Turkish Cypriots too. You cannot say that one people deserves self-determination but another doesn't.

As for struggle against colonialism, I do recognise that right, too. But I don't think that right includes a right to kill innocent people, and I don't think killing anybody working for the colonial administration is right either. I believe killing can only be justified in defence of oneself or someone else.

[samarkeolog]

Incidentally, if the British Empire had said that,

Most Cypriots wanted what EOKA (1955-59) wanted. So it is one and the same. Both the majority of Cypriots and EOKA wanted the self-determination of Cyprus and union with Greece and were ready to fight (this means kill) those who denied to us our freedom and self-determination, be it British or those who collaborated with them for this purpose....

You can't separate EOKA from the general population because EOKA was supported by the general population. EOKA were our fighters....

... it would have been criticised as an excuse for the crime of collective punishment.

As for the claim that 'Neither the majority of Cypriots nor EOKA wanted any refugees, burned villages or anything else you falsely accuse them', it is a documented fact that there were refugees driven out of villages by ethnic violence and that many villages were burned. I repeat. I do not blame the majority of Cypriots. I blame the minority of violent nationalist extremists. You're the one who says the majority wanted them to do what they did.

[samarkeolog]

By the way, as I told you earlier, if you are such an anti-nationalist then start with your own nation. Split your own nation into a 1000 pieces so it will not have the power to terrorize others anymore, and then come to accuse us of nationalism because we fought the colonialists and those who collaborated with them because we wanted our freedom and to unify our nation.

By the way, Oracle said you are doing some kind of research. What is that research about?

I don't care whether my nation stays together or not. If it splits up, it splits up. I still won't care.

I'm studying the politics and ethics of archaeological work in conflict zones. The central part of the work has been on the treatment of cultural heritage in the conflict in Cyprus, and the way archaeologists, administrations and others have presented that treatment. I did other work as well, but the relevant stuff was visiting churches, mosques and villages that one side or the other had claimed were damaged or destroyed.

[Piratis]

What I am saying is clear: A person with language X and religion Z can not be of the same Ethnicity as as a person with language Y and religion N. Not in Cyprus, not anywhere. (unless one of the two assimilates into the other)

Yes, nationalists prefer assimilation or exclusion; but there are Creole cultures and hybrid ethnic groups.

In our case non of what you said applied. What we wanted is our freedom and self-determination and we were forced to fight for it because the imperialists wouldn't give our rights after we have been asking for them for decades. Beyond that, the TC minority could choose for themselves if they wanted to be the same with us or different. Up to them.

Beyond that if you want to believe the imaginary theories of Boyd, or even create some more of your own, go ahead.

What about the theories of the UN peacekeeper?

Stick to the facts. You run out of facts to support your claims and now you employ theories which were made for 63 to explain 58

I was using the word theories as a joke. They were not the peacekeeper's theories; they were facts, and EOKA had the same ideologies and the same ideologists as Akritas.

They were theories because he is trying to tell as what "would have been".
The only "ideology" of Akitas plan is what is written in the Akritas plan itself.

there was no EOKA in 1963

Yeah, sorry, I made a point of writing Greek Cypriot nationalist extremists to include EOKA and Akritas, but I forgot once. But Akritas had the same ideologies and the same ideologists as EOKA. Was Akritas any more different from EOKA than TMT was from Volkan?

I'm not blaming Greeks. But I'm not blaming Turks either. I'm blaming the nationalist extremists and foreign imperialists who destroyed the country.

So are you labeling almost every Cypriot a "nationalist extremist" because we wanted our freedom and self-determination and we fought for it ?

I say, I'm not blaming most Cypriots, I'm blaming a small minority of extremists. You say, I am blaming most Cypriots... Most Cypriots did not want to burn down coffeeshops, or homes, or villages, or to make other Cypriots refugees. Most Cypriots did not want to attack or murder other Cypriots. Only a small minority did. They were extremists. They destroyed the country with the help of foreign imperialists.

Are you going to try to accuse me of blaming most Cypriots again? The only way you could do that would be to tell me that most Cypriots wanted those things to happen. If that were true, then yes, I would blame most Cypriots; but as far as I know, that wasn't true. Are you telling me that most Cypriots wanted to terrorise and murder and ethnically cleanse? If not, please, stop telling me that I'm blaming most Cypriots.

Most Cypriots wanted what EOKA (1955-59) wanted.

But for different reasons. Nationalists wanted unity with Greece to protect them from Communism. Socialists wanted unity with Greece to protect them from capitalism and nationalism.
[/quote]

For the same reason, the same reason we wanted to be part of a free Greek State since 1821: Because Cyprus is Greek, and we (all Greeks) wanted to create our own free Greek nation state.

So it is one and the same. Both the majority of Cypriots and EOKA wanted the self-determination of Cyprus and union with Greece and were ready to fight (this means kill) those who denied to us our freedom and self-determination, be it British or those who collaborated with them for this purpose. You can't separate EOKA from the general population because EOKA was supported by the general population. EOKA were our fighters. So if you want blame EOKA then you have to blame all of us, bar the ones who collaborated with the Imperialists.

Don't associate unarmed, anti-nationalist Greek Cypriots with armed, nationalist Greek Cypriots' murders of Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, and Brits. EOKA and Akritas should take responsibility for their own actions; they should not expect their victims to blame themselves.

Those who were not armed were not because we didn't have enough arms. The vast majority of Cypriots supported the armed struggle against the colonialists. The extremists are the Imperialists. If they were not extremist they would pack up and go when we asked, and there would be no need for us to fight for our freedom. You are nothing more than yet another British Imperialist who is trying to blame the Cypriot people for fighting for their freedom.

If during that time some individuals within EOKA used their position for actions beyond their duty, then blame those individuals nor our whole EOKA freedom fighters who, I repeat, had the support of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

What happened in 1955 was a revolution of the Cypriot people against the foreign colonialists.

This revolution happened only after our calls for freedom and self-determination were being refused to us for many decades.

Our revolutionaries had the support of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

The aim of the revolution: freedom, self-determination and union with Greece, had the support of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

This doesn't mean it had the support of the 100% of people. There are always some minorities which do not support a revolution. (e.g. the "Loyalists" in the American Revolution)

A Revolutions are violent and people die.

During Revolution there is anarchy and some individuals might use that anarchy to settle different kind of accounts.

So, do you recognize the right of Cypriot people for self-determination and the right from union with Greece if this was the democratically expressed wish of the majority of Cypriots? Yes or NO?

Do you recognize the right of the Cypriot to revolt and start an armed struggle after the above rights have been refused to us for decades? YES or NO?

Also in an earlier post I asked you to tell me the difference between the three biggest Greek islands: Cyprus, Crete and Rhodes, and why Crete and Rhodes should be part of the Greek Republic and Cyprus should have not been allowed back in the 50s or even earlier. (if that is is what you think) You didn't reply to this question.

I accept the right of self-determination. But if you demand self-determination for Greek Cypriots, you demand it for Turkish Cypriots too. You cannot say that one people deserves self-determination but another doesn't.
[/quote]

TCs are a minority remnant of a foreign ruler. Are you going to tell me that the whites of South Africa also have a right for separate self-determination? Do you also approve Apartheid? Slowly slowly you are dropping the mask and revealing your true self.

It is our freedom that has been taken away from the Turks and the British, and it our freedom that should be restored. We didn't ask for any Turks or British to come and settle in our island during their rule. After their rule ended then they should accept that the decisions will be taken democratically by the Cypriots, and not by themselves.

As for struggle against colonialism, I do recognise that right, too. But I don't think that right includes a right to kill innocent people, and I don't think killing anybody working for the colonial administration is right either. I believe killing can only be justified in defence of oneself or someone else.

That is how wars and revolutions are my friend. Some innocent people die. Do you know any war or revolution that only the "evil" ones get killed? In fact the real evil ones in our case where hiding behind some palaces in London and they were not in any danger.

If you know any war or revolution that everybody that died in it are people that should have died, then let me know about it.

For decades we were asking peacefully for our self-determination and it was refused to us. Armed struggle was our last resort, and the ones who should be blamed for ending up in an armed struggled are the Imperialists who refused to us our freedom, and not the Cypriots who revolted.

[Piratis]

Incidentally, if the British Empire had said that,

Most Cypriots wanted what EOKA (1955-59) wanted. So it is one and the same. Both the majority of Cypriots and EOKA wanted the self-determination of Cyprus and union with Greece and were ready to fight (this means kill) those who denied to us our freedom and self-determination, be it British or those who collaborated with them for this purpose....

You can't separate EOKA from the general population because EOKA was supported by the general population. EOKA were our fighters....

... it would have been criticised as an excuse for the crime of collective punishment.

As for the claim that 'Neither the majority of Cypriots nor EOKA wanted any refugees, burned villages or anything else you falsely accuse them', it is a documented fact that there were refugees driven out of villages by ethnic violence and that many villages were burned. I repeat. I do not blame the majority of Cypriots. I blame the minority of violent nationalist extremists. You're the one who says the majority wanted them to do what they did.

That was only AFTER TCs collaborated with the British and attacked us in order to be later granted gains on our expense and not during the 1955-59 EOKA Struggle.

During our liberation struggle 1955-59 (which was the only time EOKA existed), the vast majority of Cypriots supported the revolution. The armed anti-imperialists struggle for self-determination and union with Greece was supported by the vast majority of Cypriots.

[samarkeolog]

... Akritas had the same ideologies and the same ideologists as EOKA. Was Akritas any more different from EOKA than TMT was from Volkan?

Now I'm confused again.

We have ample proof for EOKA; what proof do you have for "Akritas" that you know so much about its ideologies? ... Please elucidate on the ideology.

You know who Georgadjis and Sampson were? I'm not wasting my Sunday afternoon on this. Even the Guardian quite confidently stated that Akritas's 'avowed aim was to rid the island of Turkish Cypriots'. It's known. Makarios himself reported that, visiting him with Sampson, later junta member Ioannides had asked to 'suddenly attack the Turkish Cypriots all over the island.... [to] get them out of the way once and for all'.

[samarkeolog]

Dektash himself admits that the TCs joined the British because they were against EOKA. So don't tell me they joined the British to "prevent theft"

Yes, the British employed mostly Turkish Cypriots, not Greek Cypriots, in the auxiliary police, but only because EOKA created 'a hell of terrorism for liberty', which prevented effective policing with Greek Cypriot staff.

Still, there were Greek Cypriot police and Turkish Cypriot police, and the Greek Cypriot police were killed by EOKA the same as the Turkish Cypriot police. And you're assuming that every single Turkish Cypriot police officer killed by EOKA was an auxiliary police officer who had joined the auxiliary police to fight EOKA.

But some of them were in the normal police, and some of them would have been in the police since before EOKA was even created! They didn't join the auxiliary police to fight EOKA. They joined the normal police, yes, to prevent theft and murder, or just to earn money to support their family; but not to fight EOKA. They didn't deserve to die.

And the Greek Cypriot police killed by EOKA, again, Greek Cypriots in the normal police, Greek Cypriots who had joined the normal police to prevent crime or to feed their families, they didn't deserve to die, either.

Who created a "hell of a terrorism" were the British colonialists who insisted on imposing their rule using terror over the Cypriot people, instead of packing up and leaving form our island as we demanded.

You should explain that to the Greek Cypriot brother of the Greek Cypriot victim of EOKA whom I was quoting, then.

By the way "Mr. Communist anti-Imperialist" what do you have to say about the Vietcong? I am sure the communist guerrilla fighters contacted their struggle in a perfect way, unlike EOKA, right?

Ha! You're hilarious. Are you related to Oracle? I'm not a Communist. I'm a democratic socialist. And I don't approve of murder, of anyone, by anyone. Is there a simpler way of saying this?

[Piratis]

By the way, as I told you earlier, if you are such an anti-nationalist then start with your own nation. Split your own nation into a 1000 pieces so it will not have the power to terrorize others anymore, and then come to accuse us of nationalism because we fought the colonialists and those who collaborated with them because we wanted our freedom and to unify our nation.

By the way, Oracle said you are doing some kind of research. What is that research about?

I don't care whether my nation stays together or not. If it splits up, it splits up. I still won't care.

But there are some minorities that want to split it up. Don't you support the "rights" of those minorities who do not want to be part of the "British Nation"? Maybe you should care more about your homeland instead of trying to tell us what is right and what is wrong about ours?

[halil]

By the way, as I told you earlier, if you are such an anti-nationalist then start with your own nation. Split your own nation into a 1000 pieces so it will not have the power to terrorize others anymore, and then come to accuse us of nationalism because we fought the colonialists and those who collaborated with them because we wanted our freedom and to unify our nation.

By the way, Oracle said you are doing some kind of research. What is that research about?

I don't care whether my nation stays together or not. If it splits up, it splits up. I still won't care.

I'm studying the politics and ethics of archaeological work in conflict zones. The central part of the work has been on the treatment of cultural heritage in the conflict in Cyprus, and the way archaeologists, administrations and others have presented that treatment. I did other work as well, but the relevant stuff was visiting churches, mosques and villages that one side or the other had claimed were damaged or destroyed.

Good work SAM .

next generationes will learn lots of things from your balanced research and links and evidances you are providing .

I hope our papers will notice your works and they publish it for their readers too .

I am reading with great interest of your writings from http://human-rights-archaeology.blogspot.com.

[samarkeolog]

I accept the right of self-determination. But if you demand self-determination for Greek Cypriots, you demand it for Turkish Cypriots too. You cannot say that one people deserves self-determination but another doesn't.

TCs are a minority remnant of a foreign ruler. Are you going to tell me that the whites of South Africa also have a right for separate self-determination? Do you also approve Apartheid? Slowly slowly you are dropping the mask and revealing your true self.

Wow. Just, wow. Amazing. You've recreated the weak, poor, Turkish Cypriot community as an all-powerful colonial settler state under which the Greek Cypriots lived as grotesquely abused subjects. Amazing. Just in case my jaw being on the floor isn't enough, I'll state the obvious: I don't approve of Apartheid.

This is just absurd. I'm not going to humour you any more.