Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

I wish I could get you a copy of that PBS (American documentary channel) documentary about Ottomans. Maybe after watching that, you'll rethink about making such strong claims. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that you're absolutely wrong but the argument you're trying to make to support such a strong claim (that Ottomans didn't advance anything) is simply too weak in my opinion.

I am here to challenge my views Metecyp.If I beleived my views were the absolute truth I wouldn’t challenge them. Don't you see that after the first schock everybody gets out of it wiser saying to himself "shit I did not know that"...

******************

maybe we should ask what Byzantines did?
except calling crusaders and destroying all east.

Scientist?
Art?
Music?

Some other time my friend. This is not our topic now.So finally you understood what the point of the discussion is or what?

********************

Also, in your previous post you said Mevlana was not Turkish and made a strange analogy by saying Onasis was Turk. Now you say "We are not talking about Turks, but Ottomans". Isn't it controversial?

Garbitsch, I wouldn’t expect from you to forget what the original issue was because the issue started from a discussion between you and me .The discussion started trying to explain you why the Greeks have this complain that they will never digest i.e that the Ottoman Era stagnated their civilisation having as a result the whole of Europe advancing whereas they themselves stayed so much behind. Do you know the Ionian islands which were under the Italians when the mainland Greece was still under the Ottomans had Universities 100 years before the Greek revolution?

About Mevlana, sorry I did not know Afganistan was under the Turks in 1200 AD. Well, OK he was a Turk. But this does not refute my point. It rather proves it! The Ottoman empire stagnated the civilisation of the Turks also! You had great poems before, you had great poets after,you have great poets today...But where are the great poets during the Ottoman period? See what I mean?

By the way I knew the rhymes of the poem "come whoever you are". But I had absolutely no idea they belonged to a Turkish poet (who lived before the Ottoman era) and of course I did not know it belonged to Mevlana. After reading some more poems of Mevlana, I can now understand the point of Murtaza about the humanitarian and goodness issues of the Turkish culture. However I still instist that these qualities did not find any way of expression during the Ottoman era. I admit I see them today in modern TCs and Turks although I think the mainland Turks have a long way to go to widespread these good qualities as being a general characteristic of their culture among their masses.

But because of the open accounts beytween us and the Cyprus problem, for the moment we prefer to point the bad elements than applause the good elements of your culture.

[garbitsch]

I wish I could get you a copy of that PBS (American documentary channel) documentary about Ottomans. Maybe after watching that, you'll rethink about making such strong claims. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that you're absolutely wrong but the argument you're trying to make to support such a strong claim (that Ottomans didn't advance anything) is simply too weak in my opinion.

I am here to challenge my views Metecyp.If I beleived my views were the absolute truth I wouldn’t challenge them. Don't you see that after the first schock everybody gets out of it wiser saying to himself "shit I did not know that"...

******************

maybe we should ask what Byzantines did?
except calling crusaders and destroying all east.

Scientist?
Art?
Music?

Some other time my friend. This is not our topic now.So finally you understood what the point of the discussion is or what?

********************

Also, in your previous post you said Mevlana was not Turkish and made a strange analogy by saying Onasis was Turk. Now you say "We are not talking about Turks, but Ottomans". Isn't it controversial?

Garbitsch, I wouldn’t expect from you to forget what the original issue was because the issue started from a discussion between you and me .The discussion started trying to explain you why the Greeks have this complain that they will never digest i.e that the Ottoman Era stagnated their civilisation having as a result the whole of Europe advancing whereas they themselves stayed so much behind. Do you know the Ionian islands which were under the Italians when the mainland Greece was still under the Ottomans had Universities 100 years before the Greek revolution?

About Mevlana, sorry I did not know Afganistan was under the Turks in 1200 AD. Well, OK he was a Turk. But this does not refute my point. It rather proves it! The Ottoman empire stagnated the civilisation of the Turks also! You had great poems before, you had great poets after,you have great poets today...But where are the great poets during the Ottoman period? See what I mean?

By the way I knew the rhymes of the poem "come whoever you are". But I had absolutely no idea they belonged to a Turkish poet (who lived before the Ottoman era) and of course I did not know it belonged to Mevlana. After reading some more poems of Mevlana, I can now understand the point of Murtaza about the humanitarian and goodness issues of the Turkish culture. However I still instist that these qualities did not find any way of expression during the Ottoman era. I admit I see them today in modern TCs and Turks although I think the mainland Turks have a long way to go to widespread these good qualities as being a general characteristic of their culture among their masses.

But because of the open accounts beytween us and the Cyprus problem, for the moment we prefer to point the bad elements than applause the good elements of your culture.

Did you visit your doctor lately? There's something wrong with you

[RAFAELLA]

The Ottomans did not advance civilisation in anything, be it architecture, sciences, poetry, literature, discoveries or anything. They stagnated it and even took it backwards.

It's so funny how you act like you know it all and make such strong claims. Do you have any idea what it takes to conclude if Ottomans advanced the civilization of their time? You think Agia Sophia is enough to conclude so? I wish I could get you a copy of that PBS (American documentary channel) documentary about Ottomans. Maybe after watching that, you'll rethink about making such strong claims. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that you're absolutely wrong but the argument you're trying to make to support such a strong claim (that Ottomans didn't advance anything) is simply too weak in my opinion.

"if Turkish occupation hadn't stopped the Greek civilization from its advanced progress in mathematics , chemistry and physics the Greeks could have been to space 600 years before the Americans"
Arthur C. Clarke

[Alexandros Lordos]

"if Turkish occupation hadn't stopped the Greek civilization from its advanced progress in mathematics , chemistry and physics the Greeks could have been to space 600 years before the Americans"
Arthur C. Clarke

Sorry Rafaella, but this doesn't make any sense. 600 years before 1960 was 1360, and the Byzantine empire wasn't even taken by the Ottomans back then. In fact, the Byzantine empire was a religious rather than a scientific civilization, it made much progress in matters of the spirit but very few scientific discoveries.

Arthur C. Clarke's comment could only hold true if you replace "Ottomans" with "Romans" - that's the time when scientific discovery ground to a halt in Greece, when in 200 BC it was turned into a Roman province. If Greece had remained a scientifically-oriented democracy, then yes I am sure they would have made it to space perhaps not later than 1200 AD.

[RAFAELLA]

"if Turkish occupation hadn't stopped the Greek civilization from its advanced progress in mathematics , chemistry and physics the Greeks could have been to space 600 years before the Americans"
Arthur C. Clarke

Sorry Rafaella, but this doesn't make any sense. 600 years before 1960 was 1360, and the Byzantine empire wasn't even taken by the Ottomans back then. In fact, the Byzantine empire was a religious rather than a scientific civilization, it made much progress in matters of the spirit but very few scientific discoveries.

Arthur C. Clarke's comment could only hold true if you replace "Ottomans" with "Romans" - that's the time when scientific discovery ground to a halt in Greece, when in 200 BC it was turned into a Roman province. If Greece had remained a scientifically-oriented democracy, then yes I am sure they would have made it to space perhaps not later than 1200 AD.

Read it again Alex, I believe you missed the meaning / point of Clarke's comment.
Try to understand the meaning and leave your calculator aside.

[Murtaza]

RAFAELLA did you think ever, how Ottomans conquered Byzantium?
They are just 400 house. When Ottomans came to Byzantium, It is already decaying.When Fatih Sultan Mehmet conquered Istanbul, They are using best weapon world saw until that time.I think ever ottomans didnt come, Byzantium would gone death. But maybe this time by the hand of Bulgarians. Byzantium sometimes called ottomans for their help agains Bulgarians.

[Alexandros Lordos]

"if Turkish occupation hadn't stopped the Greek civilization from its advanced progress in mathematics , chemistry and physics the Greeks could have been to space 600 years before the Americans"
Arthur C. Clarke

Sorry Rafaella, but this doesn't make any sense. 600 years before 1960 was 1360, and the Byzantine empire wasn't even taken by the Ottomans back then. In fact, the Byzantine empire was a religious rather than a scientific civilization, it made much progress in matters of the spirit but very few scientific discoveries.

Arthur C. Clarke's comment could only hold true if you replace "Ottomans" with "Romans" - that's the time when scientific discovery ground to a halt in Greece, when in 200 BC it was turned into a Roman province. If Greece had remained a scientifically-oriented democracy, then yes I am sure they would have made it to space perhaps not later than 1200 AD.

Read it again Alex, I believe you missed the meaning / point of Clarke's comment.
Try to understand the meaning and leave your calculator aside.

Still don't get it ...

[erolz]

Sorry Rafaella, but this doesn't make any sense.

I also seriously doubt Arthur C Clarke actualy said this. For a start the man was way to intelligent to have said it. secondly a quick google of the phrase has it appearing in several forums and a few Greek based sites but nowhere else. The top three google refs to this are all in signatures of (greek presumably) forum posters on various discussion sites. Some have the 'quote' as 'if christianity and Turkish invasion'.

PS now this is a real Arthur C Clarke quote

"A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.
--Arthur C. Clarke "

[Alexandros Lordos]

Some have the 'quote' as 'if christianity and Turkish invasion'.

OK, if you add the word "Christianity" the argument is at least rational, because it is like saying that the Greek civilization went off track in 200 - 300 AD by becoming a religious civilization and then it went further off track by being enslaved to the Ottomans. This is a common argument, and Arthur C. Clarke may have said something of the sort.

Still, I disagree with the argument: What stopped the scientific progress of the Greeks was not the rise of religion (the ancient Greeks had religion also) but the demise of democracy. Science can only flourish where there is freedom of expression and where value is attributed to the individual, not in autocratic imperial regimes.


P.S. Rafaella, maybe you can try quoting more accurately in the future, to save us the needless head-scratching ...

[MicAtCyp]

Did you visit your doctor lately? There's something wrong with you

Yes I did. He told me not to read so much Garbage.
He also wrote me some anti-asshole pills to fight the disease coming from guys like you.