Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murtaza]

I think you have to remember crusaders who come for plunder and helped by Greeks?

Are you being serious? The crusaders invaded Constantinople in 1204, what do you mean "they were being helped by Greeks"? The crusaders were enemies of the Greeks!

I know first and second crusader get help from Greeks.
Dont have idea of 3. crusader.
And 4. crusader they destroyed istanbul.
After this time they were enemy.
But I think before this time they were weapon against the Turks and Araps.

Did you ever come Turkey?

About 5 times so far. I was in Istanbul last week, and I will be in Ankara in June.[/quote]

So didnt you see anything made by Ottomans?

[Alexandros Lordos]

I know first and second crusader get help from Greeks.

I don't recall anything of the sort. In fact, the hostility between the Byzantines and the Franks (who were the main crusaders) was already solidified by the 10th century. I'll check the history books for the precise facts and get back to you.

So didnt you see anything made by Ottomans?

Sure, the Blue Mosque - an excellent copy of the Hagia Sophia, made in the 17th century with the money of Greek taxpayers.

[Murtaza]

I know first and second crusader get help from Greeks.

I don't recall anything of the sort. I'll check the history books and get back to you.

So didnt you see anything made by Ottomans?

Sure, the Blue Mosque - an excellent copy of the Hagia Sophia, made in the 17th century with the money of Greek taxpayers.

Crap.
So It was infact made by greeks.
Sorry.
We just took tax from greeks.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Sure, the Blue Mosque - an excellent copy of the Hagia Sophia, made in the 17th century with the money of Greek taxpayers.

Crap.
So It was infact made by greeks.

No, it wasn't made by the Greeks. It was made by the Ottomans based on an architectural design they borrowed from the Greeks, using money that they took from the Greeks.

What I am trying to say is that the Ottomans were a parasitic civilization, I am not saying they didn't exist.

[Murtaza]

http://www.answers.com/topic/first-crusade-2

[Alexandros Lordos]

Thanks for the useful link. So yes, Alexius I asked for the help of the westerners to hold back the seljuk invasion into Anatolia, after the battle of Manzikert. He had not asked for a crusade - that was the westerners' agenda. And as you have read, by the time the crusaders reached Jerusalem and committed their massarcres, the byzantines no longer had anything to do with them.

In fact, repeatedly from the 10th to the 15th Century the byzanines were asking for help from the west to hold back the seljuk and then ottoman attacks, but no help was forthcoming.

[Murtaza]

Sure, the Blue Mosque - an excellent copy of the Hagia Sophia, made in the 17th century with the money of Greek taxpayers.

Crap.
So It was infact made by greeks.

No, it wasn't made by the Greeks. It was made by the Ottomans based on an architectural design they borrowed from the Greeks, using money that they took from the Greeks.

What I am trying to say is that the Ottomans were a parasitic civilization, I am not saying they didn't exist.

http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-si ... r_by=title


The Sultanahmet mosque, known as the Blue Mosque, is the central element of the complex built by Ahmed I (1603-1617) and was completed after the sultan's death in 1617. Its architect is Mehmed Aga (d.1622), whose epithet "Sedefkar" refers to his mastery in mother-of-pearl. The mosque is considered to be the last example of Ottoman classical architecture; Mehmed Aga was an apprentice under Sinan (1450?-1588) and Davud Aga (d.1598), two architects whose works have defined the style of this period.


And Ottoman take tax form Bulgarians, serbs, albanians, Turks and Greeks.
To say It made with the money of Greeks is realy comic.

But remember how greeks abused slaves in antic times?
So your civilization build of slaves body.
I think what you accuse about Turks also have in Greeks.

And pls dont tell me democrasy, In fact it was an autocrasy, And Turks have a little different type of Autocrasy.
Even Osman and Ertugrul(First Ottoman Rulers) choosen by his people.

[Murtaza]

The French and German Crusaders left by land in May, 1147. Conrad's army arrived in Constantinople first, but relations with Byzantine emperor Manuel I Comnenus were poor and the Germans were convinced to cross into Asia Minor as quickly as possible. There, they decided not to wait for the French, and marched towards Edessa. Conrad split his army into two divisions; one of these was destroyed by the Seljuk Turks on October 25, 1147 at the battle of Dorylaeum. The other division was similarly massacred early in 1148.

http://second-crusade.biography.ms/

Second Crusade, this one is after Jerusalem.
Still helped by Greeks.


Richard and Philip travelled by sea, though separately, to the Holy Land in 1191. On the way, Richard stopped at Cyprus, where he took offense at his treatment by the independent Byzantine ruler of the island. By the end of May, he had conquered the whole island, and later sold it to Guy of Lusignan, the nominal King of Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade
Third Crusade.

[Alexandros Lordos]

But remember how greeks abused slaves in antic times?
So your civilization build of slaves body.

Yes I do remember - and you are absolutely right on this point.

Greeks were never saints either, I would say that each of the two civilizations has its own historical dark spots. (I invite you, if you wish, for us to put aside the antagonistic style of conversation and see if we can together work to find the truth of the issue.)

The greatest weakness of the Greek civilization had always been the propensity for civil war and antagonism for positions of power. This weakness was evident both in antiquity, and in byzantine times (I think about half the emperors were deposed and murdered by a usurper!), and in modern times. Having said that, it would be unfair to accuse the Greeks of being invaders and conquerors. On the few occasions when the Greeks moved to war against another people - e.g. Alexander the Great - the motive was primarily defensive. Persia had invaded Greece about 10 times before the Greeks decided to take the war back to Persia.

The Turks on the other hand, cannot be accused of being as divisive and vainglorious as the Greeks. I don't know how many civil wars you had, or if any Sultans were murdered by usurpers, but I am sure that even if such events did happen they were isolated occurences and did not represent the overall spirit of your civilization. Having said that, the greatest dark spot of the Turks - at least throughout the Ottoman era - was certainly their propensity to invade other peoples' property and then use it as if it were their own.

As I said above, my wish is not to argue with you, being antagonistic is not a style I like. All I can do is express my hope that in the future, both Greeks and Turks will learn to overcome their historical weaknesses. Already the signs are promising. Greeks are growing in their capacity to share power and co-operate harmoniously, while Turks have on the whole respected their neighbouring countries over the last century, without getting involved in wars of conquest.

I guess in this sense Ataturk was truly great - though Greeks rarely acknowledge this - in that he showed the Turks a new way of relating with the rest of the world, "peace at home, peace in the world" - which is totally different from the earlier Islamic doctrine "peace at home, war in the world".

But anyhow, what do I know about Turkey, I am just a Greek.

Have a good day.

[erolz]

(I invite you, if you wish, for us to put aside the antagonistic style of conversation and see if we can together work to find the truth of the issue.)

Would you also agree that the Ottomans were, by comparative standards of the time, comparatively benevolent rulers. What I mean is that on the whole they did not treat their conquered subjects in the same way that European powers of that time did. They gave greater religious freedom to their conquered subjects, greater autonomy and had less propensity to exterminate conquered people (the dead pay no taxes)?