Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Why does Oracle have to start and continue each thread with such manifest bollocks ? Why do her 'educated' guesses at population figures serve as a basis for discussion ? They're not educated figures, they're the product of ignorant fantasising.

Whilst there are disagreements over the precise figures and definitions of the population of the different parts of Cyprus - the kinds of census and definition differences that you'd expect in most population data - the margin of difference between informed estimates is not so great. The idea of 300,00 settlers is simply not plausible.

Tim Drayton introduces an important point which is germane to all societies : the effects of under and unemployment on social cohesion and stability. There is substantial discrimination is northern Cyprus with the expected effects that arise from systematic inequality; this is found in different degrees in the south.

Any settlement of the Cyprus question has not only to address the political questions of forms of government, jurisdiction etc, but also the economics of integration and social convergence. Inattention to the latter may scupper the former.

More generally on the 'settler' question : under any agreement settlers - whether Turkish, Kurdish, Iraqi, Russian, British, German, etc - should be allowed to remain consistent with fair treatment and human rights as contained in EConvHR. Those who wish to expel settlers (such as Oracle) would then be in breach of the beloved EConvHR of which the Republic of Cyprus is, of course a signatory and which, rightly, condemns Turkey for breaches of that Convention.

Do I understand your final paragraph to mean that the expulsion of settlers from north Cyprus would itself be illegal even though their "importation" to the island itself was contrary to the law? It does not make sense, are you saying Turkey can illegally settle people on the island and there is no remedy open to the ROC?

He's made a bold and sweeping statement hoping to blind us with his brilliance. Notice how he left out GCs from the list of people who have to be treated fairly and consistent with Human Rights. Weighing up the Rights of Settlers against the Rights of the Refugee GCs, doesn't seem to present Copper with any ethical dilemmas.

Here are some points from the EConvHR which are pertinent to limiting any calls on Settlers' rights over those of GCs ....

a. Concerning such, European law, therefore, should not have an a priori priority, it is not and may not be hierarchically superior to national law.

b. What it should determine is only the minimum level of protection of rights which must be ensured in all member countries.

c. The rights of individuals are limited by the equal rights of others

Above and beyond the application of the EConvHR to Settlers, one would also have to look at the criminality of the process of colonisation.

[Kikapu]

Tim,I was just wondering...How come you were interpreting for these people in the trnc???? From Turkish into...What???

Sorry, my lips are sealed. Professional integrity and all that - I am sure you have been there. If I could tell you, you jaw would drop in astonishment.

There are two questions Tim, which one can you not tell us about? Surely you can tell in to what language you translated to? I just can't see why the secrecy there.

On the other hand, maybe you don't want to say because what you said is just a story you made up for whatever purpose for your own agenda?

You said before that you lived in Turkey for a long time and seen and done so much and from your arguments, you seem to think that you know more than anyone in this forum about anything. Then you moved to the "RoC" for whatever reason. Now you are still seing and doing so much, too much if you ask me that is beginning to sound like it's all made up, especially with all the secrecy.

Anyway, isn't there enough work for you in the South Greek Cyprus that you are forced to cross over the border and take on work in the TRNC as well to earn you wages?

You can either believe me or not, that's up to you. Feel free to ignore all of my posts if you doubt my integrity.

I must support Tim here from some of our very ignorant people on the forum wanting Tim to give information on what and whom he does business with, specially from such people who are not even willing to answer a simple generic question such as if they respect Democracy, Human Rights and International laws, but want Tim to divulge information on his clients. Bir asked a very innocent question out of curiosity and Tim gave him a very diplomatic answer. There was no need for others to press the issue and even question his motives or integrity. The fact that Tim is a freelance professional interpreter/translator who can speak Turkish much better than most of us TC's here for someone whose native tongue is English, is a testament to the fact that he has spent a great deal of time in Turkey. Tim is one of the most open persons on the forum who gives us his real name, website, address, licence number and VAT number.

If I remember correctly, Tim has stated in his website, that he only translates from Turkish to English, because to have the best translation done, it is best to translate from foreign language to ones mother tongue. I have seen his rates to what he charges for his work and that we should be very privilaged to have Tim provide translations for us at the highest quality for absolutely free. It is ludicrous to question his integrity, specially from those who change their NIKS on the forum from one name to another just to hide their past statements, as if we don't know who they really are. If I may use a American Football term, Tim is a MVP (Most Valuable Player), or in the case of the forum, Most Valuable Poster as far as I'm concerned. Keep it up Tim, and ignore rude people..

[Oracle]

[- ; u can make sure of that theres no potentially Turkish soldiers hidden in those settlers. If there had been we would hear it from Africa or some other sources.

Insan, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule, and I hope the Internet Cafe is doing well

But I must make one thing clearer, as you and a few others have made the same error.

I am not saying there are 100,000 Turkish Soldiers pretending to be Settlers which have sneaked over with the civilians.

I said, out of BirKibrisli's estimated 300,000 Settlers, there are potentially 100,000 soldiers (pro-Turkish).

That is to say, there could be that many men of about the right age and ability, to serve as soldiers if needed.

Roughly estimated from BirKibrisli's figure of 300,000 then divided by 2 to remove those who are women, hence 150,000 men/boys. Then remove about a third for the two ends of the age spectrum, thus leaving 100,000 (which have already been trained in Turkey or can be trained back there, or with the occupying troops or TC Admin, as already confirmed by a number of posters).

Therefore .... when negotiations are taking place, since the known 40,000 troops are taken into account as well as the known 5,000 TC reserves ... then to be accurate; they have to take into account this population of Settlers also, some of whom will also be technically reserves already.

Hence the extra blackmailing pressure we feel, is not from just 40,000 Turkish troops but: 40,000 + 5,000 + 100,000 = 145,000 Turkish reserves and troops .... already on the island!

So when the EU asks Turkey to consider reducing the troop numbers to ease negotiations, they should not forget the rest ....

Understand? ... Now do we deserve some "empathy"?

[Get Real!]

More generally on the 'settler' question : under any agreement settlers - whether Turkish, Kurdish, Iraqi, Russian, British, German, etc - should be allowed to remain consistent with fair treatment and human rights as contained in EConvHR. Those who wish to expel settlers (such as Oracle) would then be in breach of the beloved EConvHR of which the Republic of Cyprus is, of course a signatory and which, rightly, condemns Turkey for breaches of that Convention.

It's all in the delivery Copperline... what you call "expel" we call "repatriate"!

It’s a shame you didn’t quote the relevant section of it so I won’t comment further until you do…

Here’s a link to save you some time…

http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5 ... nglais.pdf

[denizaksulu]

[- ; u can make sure of that theres no potentially Turkish soldiers hidden in those settlers. If there had been we would hear it from Africa or some other sources.

Insan, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule, and I hope the Internet Cafe is doing well

But I must make one thing clearer, as you and a few others have made the same error.

I am not saying there are 100,000 Turkish Soldiers pretending to be Settlers which have sneaked over with the civilians.

I said, out of BirKibrisli's estimated 300,000 Settlers, there are potentially 100,000 soldiers (pro-Turkish).

That is to say, there could be that many men of about the right age and ability, to serve as soldiers if needed.

Roughly estimated from BirKibrisli's figure of 300,000 then divided by 2 to remove those who are women, hence 150,000 men/boys. Then remove about a third for the two ends of the age spectrum, thus leaving 100,000 (which have already been trained in Turkey or can be trained back there, or with the occupying troops or TC Admin, as already confirmed by a number of posters).

Therefore .... when negotiations are taking place, since the known 40,000 troops are taken into account as well as the known 5,000 TC reserves ... then to be accurate; they have to take into account this population of Settlers also, some of whom will also be technically reserves already.

Hence the extra blackmailing pressure we feel, is not from just 40,000 Turkish troops but: 40,000 + 5,000 + 100,000 = 145,000 Turkish reserves and troops .... already on the island!

So when the EU asks Turkey to consider reducing the troop numbers to ease negotiations, they should not forget the rest ....

Understand? ... Now do we deserve some "empathy"?

There is no end to your Paranoia Oracle. You have nothing to fear. Your presence in the south is enough to keep the 100,000 at bay. Rest assured.

[Nikitas]

"Those who wish to expel settlers (such as Oracle) would then be in breach of the beloved EConvHR of which the Republic of Cyprus is, of course a signatory and which, rightly, condemns Turkey for breaches of that Convention."

Copperline you are confusing the rights of legally settled individuals with the status of illegaly transported settlers.

The act of colonisation is expressly forbidden by international law and those illegally transported cannot claim legal status, otherwise the claim would make monkeys of the international crime of colonisation.

The settlers leave, or the Cyprus problem will assume dimensions that none of us can even imagine and the ultimate losers will not be the Greek Cypriots who are partly shielded by the de facto partition of the present or the legalised quasi partition under any future settlement.

[insan]

[- ; u can make sure of that theres no potentially Turkish soldiers hidden in those settlers. If there had been we would hear it from Africa or some other sources.

Insan, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule, and I hope the Internet Cafe is doing well

No problem, dear Oracle. It's doing well, thank u

[But I must make one thing clearer, as you and a few others have made the same error.

I am not saying there are 100,000 Turkish Soldiers pretending to be Settlers which have sneaked over with the civilians.

I said, out of BirKibrisli's estimated 300,000 Settlers, there are potentially 100,000 soldiers (pro-Turkish).

That is to say, there could be that many men of about the right age and ability, to serve as soldiers if needed.

Roughly estimated from BirKibrisli's figure of 300,000 then divided by 2 to remove those who are women, hence 150,000 men/boys. Then remove about a third for the two ends of the age spectrum, thus leaving 100,000 (which have already been trained in Turkey or can be trained back there, or with the occupying troops or TC Admin, as already confirmed by a number of posters).

Therefore .... when negotiations are taking place, since the known 40,000 troops are taken into account as well as the known 5,000 TC reserves ... then to be accurate; they have to take into account this population of Settlers also, some of whom will also be technically reserves already.

Hence the extra blackmailing pressure we feel, is not from just 40,000 Turkish troops but: 40,000 + 5,000 + 100,000 = 145,000 Turkish reserves and troops .... already on the island!

So when the EU asks Turkey to consider reducing the troop numbers to ease negotiations, they should not forget the rest ....

Understand? ... Now do we deserve some "empathy"?

Now u made it clearer, dear. Of course u deserve empathy abt this issue. I usually feel like as if u have a huge fear and some stereotypes abt Turks. I still have empathy for ur fears regarding Turks. I guess there's no any other nations that expanded its borders as Turks did. I don't think most of the Turks would feel such an empathy bcz throughout the history they haven't been a subject of other nations. Moreover, being the succsesful party in vast majority of the battles/wars Turks made throughout the history; created a mentality on minds of vast majority of Turks that they r the strongest nation on earth. Although, as a military force it is obvious Turks r one of the strongest nations on earth; as a consequence of the international difficulties they faced during and after the Liberation War of Turkey, created a strong sentiment on Turks to have sufficient safeguards in any case for not to go through the same bitter experiences of the past. Turks have a strong sentiment of being in an Orthodox triangle(Greece, Cyprus and Russia). On the other hand, being on a very strategic location and having some land disputes with Kurds, Armenians and Hellenes. All these factors slow down her Europeanization and globalization process thus her democratization process. However settlers issue has nothing to do with this. They r the product of the unresolved Cyprus problem. Earlier i told u that they r simple villagers like all other Turkish or TC villagers. Furthermore i have never had even a little doubt or belief that they were brung to North for colonisation purposes or changing the demographics of island. Settlers issue should be evaluated in a casual connection, imo. I have some opinions regarding this issue and if u wish i can share it with u, later. Still i feel very tired.

Cheers

[Nikitas]

Skipper wrote:

"I'm not saying I agree with the policy (if it ever was planned as such) but it's not as Mikey Mouse as it seems because as far as I can see Turkey does n't really care if an agreement is reached or not."

Illegal settlers cannot claim legalisation by virtue of their long residence or place of birth. The UN charter is clear on that.

I also do not get how a lapse of 5 years after the Annan plan would involve the acceptance of more than 50 000 settlers. They breed and mature so fast that in 5 years we have a new generation?

But the important thing is that Turkey is not keen on a settlement, and therefore validates the GC position that the end plan is the takeover of the whole island. Which casts doubt on the utility of any kind of talks and settlements. In the end it is Turkey that wants Enosis and is systematically implementing it.

[Nikitas]

This myth of Turkish military might is wearing a little thin when you review history- there were several Russo Turkish wars, the Balkan wars, the liberation wars of Serbia, Greece, Romania, the liberation of the Arab lands, etc all of which involved defeats for Turkey.

And let us not forget that the great hero Moustafa Lala himself was soundly defeated by the Maltese a few years before he came to Cyprus.

As for the Turks not having lived as subjects of foreign rulers, what about those living outside Turkey and living under foreign governments like Bulgaria, Bosnia, FYROM and Greece.

[insan]

This myth of Turkish military might is wearing a little thin when you review history- there were several Russo Turkish wars, the Balkan wars, the liberation wars of Serbia, Greece, Romania, the liberation of the Arab lands, etc all of which involved defeats for Turkey..

And let us not forget that the great hero Moustafa Lala himself was soundly defeated by the Maltese a few years before he came to Cyprus. ..

Did i say Turks have never been defeated at wars?

..As for the Turks not having lived as subjects of foreign rulers, what about those living outside Turkey and living under foreign governments like Bulgaria, Bosnia, FYROM and Greece.

I talk about Turks as a nation, not the Turks living in other countries as a minority or as a small group of people.