Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Looks like Oracle is showing her vulnerable side today.......Like Kikapu ho is ignoring this thread and his ignorance..

There's nothing more to add Zan, despite Tim's added information from Küçük's book. Books are written from one's own prospective if it's a Biography on themselves and may not be as objective as it can or should be. Inönü on the other hand, understood the situation very well at that time, unless of course, you want to declare him to be an old senile fool. Your choice Zan.!

It is actually a quote from Kutchuk's letter of reply to İnönü's letter, Kikapu.

[zan]

Looks like Oracle is showing her vulnerable side today.......Like Kikapu ho is ignoring this thread and his ignorance..

There's nothing more to add Zan, despite Tim's added information from Küçük's book. Books are written from one's own prospective if it's a Biography on themselves and may not be as objective as it can or should be. Inönü on the other hand, understood the situation very well at that time, unless of course, you want to declare him to be an old senile fool. Your choice Zan.!

Just say you were wrong and you leaned something from this....You asked the question about why the TCs did not return to government and you have got undisputed proof of the conditions and why....I say undisputed because you have not tried to discredit the link I gave you...Do you know understand that Inonus letter is not the end all of this question you asked.....Do you know understand the situation for the TCs at the time and to this present day....It should all make lore sense to you know....If not for my sake then Tims.

[paliometoxo]

it doesent zan but we have no say in that because the turks hold the north by force with 40 thousand troops there is nothing we can do, all turkey has to do is remove the troops and agree that we all have same rights but they will not allow that they will do everything in their power for two states so its turkey that is to blame


well at least the roc goverment wouldent ban the website if i do slag them off

i bet if i upload a few pics or videos and slag off gaturk attaturk it wont take long for turkey to ban the site

I would argue that the "RoC" hold the CYPRUS REPUBLIC by force and that is why Turkey is there!!!


Ban a website or suppress a people on their own island...I know which one I wood choose!!!

i know which you would chose but mother land turkey is doing both!!

They are banning websites from a few videos on youtube and suprresing people on OUR ( our being tcs and gcs ) own island bringing people from mainland turkey so the tcs have no vote at all, whatever you do your a minority even in your own so called TRNC...

turkey could easily in one day remove the troops and re unite cyprus, could greece easily do this ine one day? or is turkey doing everything in its power to make sure cyprus stays devided and both sides recognised for ever? not allowing their own people to go to their homes, we give tcs free medical care tcs come take our jobs because any half decent job like in goverment you need to speak turkish, the you still complain you want your trnc devided and recognised. we are so relaxed with tcs over in the south yet turkey still spits in gcs face. no flags of any cypriot kind in the north or you get arrested no goods form the south or they take it from you. why do you people bother coming intot he south to steal our jobs if you want your trnc?

in england do the minorities complain and try make little states of their own? no they accept they are a minority!

so you see it is you that is mixed up turkey is the one causing the problems and holding cyprus with its 40 tousand troops.

turkey will not win the war in the end

[zan]

it doesent zan but we have no say in that because the turks hold the north by force with 40 thousand troops there is nothing we can do, all turkey has to do is remove the troops and agree that we all have same rights but they will not allow that they will do everything in their power for two states so its turkey that is to blame


well at least the roc goverment wouldent ban the website if i do slag them off

i bet if i upload a few pics or videos and slag off gaturk attaturk it wont take long for turkey to ban the site

I would argue that the "RoC" hold the CYPRUS REPUBLIC by force and that is why Turkey is there!!!


Ban a website or suppress a people on their own island...I know which one I wood choose!!!

i know which you would chose but mother land turkey is doing both!!

They are banning websites from a few videos on youtube and suprresing people on OUR ( our being tcs and gcs ) own island bringing people from mainland turkey so the tcs have no vote at all, whatever you do your a minority even in your own so called TRNC...

turkey could easily in one day remove the troops and re unite cyprus, could greece easily do this ine one day? or is turkey doing everything in its power to make sure cyprus stays devided and both sides recognised for ever? not allowing their own people to go to their homes, we give tcs free medical care tcs come take our jobs because any half decent job like in goverment you need to speak turkish, the you still complain you want your trnc devided and recognised. we are so relaxed with tcs over in the south yet turkey still spits in gcs face. no flags of any cypriot kind in the north or you get arrested no goods form the south or they take it from you. why do you people bother coming intot he south to steal our jobs if you want your trnc?

in england do the minorities complain and try make little states of their own? no they accept they are a minority!

so you see it is you that is mixed up turkey is the one causing the problems and holding cyprus with its 40 tousand troops.

turkey will not win the war in the end

Ask the "RoC"......Thety have to abide by their EU reasoning...


I think Kikapu wants this thread to die......

[Kikapu]

it doesent zan but we have no say in that because the turks hold the north by force with 40 thousand troops there is nothing we can do, all turkey has to do is remove the troops and agree that we all have same rights but they will not allow that they will do everything in their power for two states so its turkey that is to blame


well at least the roc goverment wouldent ban the website if i do slag them off

i bet if i upload a few pics or videos and slag off gaturk attaturk it wont take long for turkey to ban the site

I would argue that the "RoC" hold the CYPRUS REPUBLIC by force and that is why Turkey is there!!!


Ban a website or suppress a people on their own island...I know which one I wood choose!!!

i know which you would chose but mother land turkey is doing both!!

They are banning websites from a few videos on youtube and suprresing people on OUR ( our being tcs and gcs ) own island bringing people from mainland turkey so the tcs have no vote at all, whatever you do your a minority even in your own so called TRNC...

turkey could easily in one day remove the troops and re unite cyprus, could greece easily do this ine one day? or is turkey doing everything in its power to make sure cyprus stays devided and both sides recognised for ever? not allowing their own people to go to their homes, we give tcs free medical care tcs come take our jobs because any half decent job like in goverment you need to speak turkish, the you still complain you want your trnc devided and recognised. we are so relaxed with tcs over in the south yet turkey still spits in gcs face. no flags of any cypriot kind in the north or you get arrested no goods form the south or they take it from you. why do you people bother coming intot he south to steal our jobs if you want your trnc?

in england do the minorities complain and try make little states of their own? no they accept they are a minority!

so you see it is you that is mixed up turkey is the one causing the problems and holding cyprus with its 40 tousand troops.

turkey will not win the war in the end

Ask the "RoC"......Thety have to abide by their EU reasoning...


I think Kikapu wants this thread to die...... :wink:

What ever for, Zan.? It's your thread which was pretty dead to begin with until I added life to it by introducing the "Inönü letters" from another thread which he adviced the TC's to go back to the government and take their seats, which they refused because Küçük made the claim in his own self described Biography, that Makarios was creating obstacles for them, so he would rather go and live in Turkey that go back to the government to serve his people that he was elected to serve. Talk about a captain jumping ship and letting his people go down to drown. You have refuted all your own claims that the TC's were forced out by Makarios when in fact they walked out and that they were prevented to return by armed guards, when in fact, even Inönü could not make them go back by begging them. So yes Zan, we let the GC run the RoC as they wish without us because we ran away as soon as the 13 points were mentioned and Inönü said, "go back or else you will lose your legal place in the RoC", so stop complaining that it was taken from us.

[zan]

it doesent zan but we have no say in that because the turks hold the north by force with 40 thousand troops there is nothing we can do, all turkey has to do is remove the troops and agree that we all have same rights but they will not allow that they will do everything in their power for two states so its turkey that is to blame


well at least the roc goverment wouldent ban the website if i do slag them off

i bet if i upload a few pics or videos and slag off gaturk attaturk it wont take long for turkey to ban the site

I would argue that the "RoC" hold the CYPRUS REPUBLIC by force and that is why Turkey is there!!!


Ban a website or suppress a people on their own island...I know which one I wood choose!!!

i know which you would chose but mother land turkey is doing both!!

They are banning websites from a few videos on youtube and suprresing people on OUR ( our being tcs and gcs ) own island bringing people from mainland turkey so the tcs have no vote at all, whatever you do your a minority even in your own so called TRNC...

turkey could easily in one day remove the troops and re unite cyprus, could greece easily do this ine one day? or is turkey doing everything in its power to make sure cyprus stays devided and both sides recognised for ever? not allowing their own people to go to their homes, we give tcs free medical care tcs come take our jobs because any half decent job like in goverment you need to speak turkish, the you still complain you want your trnc devided and recognised. we are so relaxed with tcs over in the south yet turkey still spits in gcs face. no flags of any cypriot kind in the north or you get arrested no goods form the south or they take it from you. why do you people bother coming intot he south to steal our jobs if you want your trnc?

in england do the minorities complain and try make little states of their own? no they accept they are a minority!

so you see it is you that is mixed up turkey is the one causing the problems and holding cyprus with its 40 tousand troops.

turkey will not win the war in the end

Ask the "RoC"......Thety have to abide by their EU reasoning...


I think Kikapu wants this thread to die...... :wink:

What ever for, Zan.? It's your thread which was pretty dead to begin with until I added life to it by introducing the "Inönü letters" from another thread which he adviced the TC's to go back to the government and take their seats, which they refused because Küçük made the claim in his own self described Biography, that Makarios was creating obstacles for them, so he would rather go and live in Turkey that go back to the government to serve his people that he was elected to serve. Talk about a captain jumping ship and letting his people go down to drown. You have refuted all your own claims that the TC's were forced out by Makarios when in fact they walked out and that they were prevented to return by armed guards, when in fact, even Inönü could not make them go back by begging them. So yes Zan, we let the GC run the RoC as they wish without us because we ran away as soon as the 13 points were mentioned and Inönü said, "go back or else you will lose your legal place in the RoC", so stop complaining that it was taken from us.

Anyone who reads all the evidence on this thread and come to that conclusion has only one agenda as far as I am concerned Kikapu.........Thanks for the confirmation.

[Kikapu]

I think Kikapu wants this thread to die...... :wink:

What ever for, Zan.? It's your thread which was pretty dead to begin with until I added life to it by introducing the "Inönü letters" from another thread which he adviced the TC's to go back to the government and take their seats, which they refused because Küçük made the claim in his own self described Biography, that Makarios was creating obstacles for them, so he would rather go and live in Turkey that go back to the government to serve his people that he was elected to serve. Talk about a captain jumping ship and letting his people go down to drown. You have refuted all your own claims that the TC's were forced out by Makarios when in fact they walked out and that they were prevented to return by armed guards, when in fact, even Inönü could not make them go back by begging them. So yes Zan, we let the GC run the RoC as they wish without us because we ran away as soon as the 13 points were mentioned and Inönü said, "go back or else you will lose your legal place in the RoC", so stop complaining that it was taken from us.

Anyone who reads all the evidence on this thread and come to that conclusion has only one agenda as far as I am concerned Kikapu.........Thanks for the confirmation.

Hello Zan,

All the evidence we have on this thread reflects very badly on your continual fabrication of the 1959 Zürich agreements being stolen from you and that the RoC is denying your rights under those agreements, or any part of those agreements have been amended, or armed guards prevented the TC's back to the government. You have produced a lot of copy paste documents but nothing that supported your above claims. In fact, most of your documents confirm that we decided we did not need the constitution anymore, hence the fact Küçük walked out of the RoC government and never wanted to return back, despite Inönü's pleas to him. You say of course, "yes but, Makarios was putting obstacles in Küçüks way to make life difficult for him". Give me a freaking break Zan. What the hell do you think the rest of the TC's had to endure during those times , specially between 1963-1968. Do you think it was picnic time for them. Our people have been made to suffer so that they can be used as pawns to push for partition at some point, because there is no other explanation the actions Küçük took. I know you want to hang onto his own words from his book that Makarios made it difficult for him to return and you think you can use this statement to win this argument with me when all the other information you produced along with Tim's Inönü letter's translation indicated that he had no intentions of going back. Tell me something Zan. Why do you suppose the Inönü letters were kept hidden for such a long time.? Was it so that people like you can create your own version of how we lost our place in the RoC government so that you can do your propaganda work. Now tell me another thing. Does Küçük mention Inönü letters in his biography, because if he doesn't, it would mean that he too did not want anyone else to know about it. Surely such an important letter must appear in his Biography. Since Tim is reading Küçük's book and you are not, perhaps he can tell us at some state.

Here is the reaction of our friend Bananiot when he found out about the Inönu letters.

I have just read a letter sent by Inonu, Prime Minister of Turkey, to Kucuk, the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community, in March 1964. Inonu was begging the Turkish Cypriots to return to the RoC! Kucuk, a moderate politician, replied that the Turkish Cypriots would rather emigrate to Turkey than return.

How do you explain this? How does anyone explain this?

Just how do you explain this, Zan.? Well, you can't and now you are trying to sweep the Inönü letter issue under the carpet because you cannot defend it because of all the damage it caused to the TC's legal place in the RoC and the world. Well, if that wasn't bad enough, then our friend Tim translated another article today with the following from yet another thread.

Translation of the Afrika article by Turgut Afşaroğlu first published on 5 January 2009.

"International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own".

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=360

So, just like Küçük, Denktash also decided to risk everything and he too did not take his place in the RoC, but you still complain about the RoC entering the EU without the TC's approval and now you are hoping against hope that the EU will prevent Cyprus from using her veto vote power against Turkey and the "trnc", should they ever be recognised in the future, by having a proportional voting rights within the EU. Keep keeping your fingers cross Zan, but not likly to happen. Küçük and Denktash were both too short sighted on the power they had in the RoC government and they let it slip away, and now we want them back, but since Denktash also agreed on a BBF, the new constitution will not be the same as the last one that you keep asking for, when our leaders gave it away on our behalf, but you still think they were HEROES.

[zan]

kikapu wrote:

No amendment was mentioned, because nothing was amended, but only proposed and to this day, it has still not been amended, therefore no veto was needed. The point of the letter Zan, was that Kucuk was told to go back to the RoC government by Inonu and he refused.

I have already said we made some mistakes Kikapu but Mkarios did not
help...In fact he did much more to make things worse and to achieve his goal of ENOSIS..

Timing these Greek-Cypriot tactics is interesting. Makarios apparently fully understands that (1) Turk-Cypriots could strengthen their case and weaken his by participation, (2) that such participation was not likely while security forces were primarily GOC and British, and (3) that formal establishment UNFICYP is strategic moment for Kutchuk to insist on participation. He appears to have made moves re Denktash and acting minister appointments to goad Turks into frittering away energies in protests and legal arguments until opportunity has passed. Makarios' tactics will probably succeed if Turk-Cypriots continue to sit on hands and feel sorry for themselves.

If Kutchuk would return to his office because of UN presence, he could be serious embarrassment to Makarios. Even if Makarios could insist successfully that all measures of GOC taken during Kutchuk's absence are legal and not subject to Vice-President's veto, he would have difficulty not forwarding future bills or measures to Kutchuk as required by constitution. His only effective alternatives would appear to be: (1) to maintain that Kutchuk was rebel who tried to set up separate Turk-Cypriot administration and therefore had lost authority in government (difficult argument to sustain if GOC has, as it claims, been sending invitations to Kutchuk and other Turk-Cypriot officials to attend scheduled meetings) or (2) to maneuver Turk-Cypriots into holding back from participation until too late.

He appears to be operating under second alternative. With each passing day that his tactics perpetuate Turk-Cypriots boycott of government, he increases general acceptance GOC as presently constituted, strengthens his contention that Turk-Cypriots are insurgents and weakens ability UN to remain neutral between two communities.

In this connection, British Embassy informs us GOT has asked HMG to intercede with Makarios and protest to UNSYG on behalf Denktash. HMG has informed GOT British forces Cyprus part of UNFICYP and they cannot make independent intercessions with GOC. (FYI. UKUN, however, has been instructed to call Denktash problem to attention SYG on humanitarian grounds. End FYI.) Turk Embassy informed Dept of GOT concern re Denktash but made no request for USUN action and Dept plans none.

And intents...

So much has happened since then to show that neither quality has many exponents on this unhappy island that another attempt at a patchwork solution can only breed further trouble. Situation obviously calls for drastic action involving major effort by NATO allies to support solution based on security needs of area, but also recognizing generally accepted democratic principle of majority rule.

Our own ideas as to once-for-all (para 5 Deptel 707) solution somewhat like Alexander's approach to Gordian Knot, although without resultant "partition" as in myth. Our recommendations will require considerable selling to GOT since we are proposing recognize Greek Cypriot ascendancy and intransigence and their insistence on a solution in accord with generally accepted standards of self-determination based on majority rule. On this basis following proposals submitted as outline of plan designed achieve over-all peace and security in area.

1. Constitutional framework providing for one person-one vote majority rule, with elections on basis of proportional representation.

2. Adequate safeguards for minorities (perhaps as with Swedes in Finland).

3. Cyprus to be tied to Greece either by enosis or in some "associated" status such as Puerto Rico. Greece would at minimum control foreign policy and defense, perhaps leaving other facets of government to Cypriots.

Would seem that only through some such device could GOT be convinced that security interests being preserved and safeguarded. Do not see how independent Cyprus with strong Communist Party organization could be accepted by Turks. Cyprus could continue to be "used" in one way or another as shuttlecock in Soviet-Western cold war in the area. Only as part of Greece and thereby included in NATO security system could GOT fears be mitigated. Part of such concept could be transferring of Izmir joint Greek-Turkish headquarters to one of British bases (probably Dhekelia) and UK giving up sovereignty over all or most of area in favor of NATO base on sovereign "Greek" territory.

Whatever Mediator may propose that would be acceptable to Greek Cypriots in their present ascendant position will require major selling effort with Turks, and in this respect Greek Ambassador Delivanis correct in his statement to Ambassador Wilkins (Embtel 1070)/3/ that US must play major persuasive role--but this does not mean that efforts other NATO partners will not be needed.

And more population exchange...

Further factor which Embassy considers essential to any lasting solution is some form of assisted emigration for Turks who are convinced they can no longer live with Greeks in Cyprus. This should involve setting up of commission to handle transfer of properties on equitable basis as well as other details of moves, including some provision for compensation for damages. Agree with Department's observations para 3 Deptel re best course of action for Mediator except with regards manner handling proposals once formulated. Experience with Cyprus "solutions" which presented publicly or leaked in some fashion not encouraging in past and no reason believe one or other side would not act same way now, particularly given existing inflamed and emotional situation.

Preventions...

This took form of maintaining that until such time as there was political settlement satisfactory to Greeks or at least until Turkish community here recognized fact that GOC was undisputed government, there was no possibility of Turkish Ministers or even Turkish civil servants returning to work. Mrs. Soulioti said that she did not go this far, but that unless there was freedom of access for Greeks who have legitimate business in present Turkish-controlled areas. (i.e., area north of Nicosia and Kyrenia Road), she saw no reason why Turks should be allowed come back to work in government in Greek area. (This strong attitude reflects position taken by Makarios in farewell conversation with Ambassador Wilkins and me reported in Embtel 1060.)/3/

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johns ... i/4757.htm


You could say that the TCs are the heros in all of this...Look at how much opposition we had...Thank heavens for Dr. Kucuk and Denktas!!!

Kikapu

Read it man FFS..........

[insan]

Kikapu,

Imho, Denktaş' and Küçük's the then political stances need a lil bit of empathy by ur side. Their situations and actions must be avaluted according to the then circumstances.

Cheers

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

Imho, Denktaş' and Küçük's the then political stances need a lil bit of empathy by ur side. Their situations and actions must be avaluted according to the then circumstances.

Cheers

Which "your side" are you talking about Insan.!