Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

The self-defeating aim of “enosis with mummy“, that most leaders of the time aspired, is what ruined Cyprus.

The only justification they had was not knowing any better due to their lack of education back then, but what’s the excuse with otherwise “intelligent” people TODAY???

The fact that certain "otherwise intelligent" people still insist that Cyprus is Greek,perhaps??????? What is their excuse?????

I agree with your gripe and that’s what I’m talking about… what makes someone issue such ignorant statements having seen the calamity that befell on Cyprus in the past from the very same logic?

I am glad we ocassionally agree on something,GR!

The root of all evil is this fanatical ethno-centric nationalism...

It must be burnt at the stake...

Having premature ejaculations over another country (enosis) is NOT nationalism but treason.

Nationalism is what Cyprus needs...

Shit...that makes two things we agree upon...
I am starting to get worried

Is this the second thing you and GR! agree upon?

.... That both of you advocate Turkey is needed in the north to help the "poor" TCs?

(Whilst all the while both bashing a fellow EU member country of the RoC).

[zan]

The self-defeating aim of “enosis with mummy“, that most leaders of the time aspired, is what ruined Cyprus.

The only justification they had was not knowing any better due to their lack of education back then, but what’s the excuse with otherwise “intelligent” people TODAY???

The fact that certain "otherwise intelligent" people still insist that Cyprus is Greek,perhaps??????? What is their excuse?????

I agree with your gripe and that’s what I’m talking about… what makes someone issue such ignorant statements having seen the calamity that befell on Cyprus in the past from the very same logic?

I am glad we ocassionally agree on something,GR!

The root of all evil is this fanatical ethno-centric nationalism...

It must be burnt at the stake...

Having premature ejaculations over another country (enosis) is NOT nationalism but treason.

Nationalism is what Cyprus needs...

Shit...that makes two things we agree upon...
I am starting to get worried

Is this the second thing you and GR! agree upon?

.... That both of you advocate Turkey is needed in the north to help the "poor" TCs?

(Whilst all the while both bashing a fellow EU member country of the RoC).

Looks like Oracle is showing her vulnerable side today.......Like Kikapu ho is ignoring this thread and his ignorance..

[Tim Drayton]

Well. What was expectation of Makarios and his backing crew when they prepared those 13 amendments? Have u any idea? Under todays circumstances we may say even though u knew it will be a waste of time to sit down in the parliament, calmly; keep playing the game and see what will happen. Yeah, if i were Kuchuk i would do that. To guess the Kuchuk's and his crew's psychology and mentality under those conditions; we need to know all the datails of political life and what was going on in the background of both parties during 1960-63 period. It's easy to summarize the events of 1963 as Makarios put forward 13 amendments for discussion and TCs ran away from the RoC to create and excuse for partition.

That's right Insan, you and I don't know what was going on at the time and for you to make assumptions is pointless. The person who was in a position to know would have been Inönu and Küçük, and Inönu told Küçük to go back to the RoC government according to the letters because he must have had his good reasons. Küçük also had his reasons for not going back, but not necessarily for the same reasons that Inönu had.

It is perhaps only fair to give Kutchuk's side of the story, so here is an excerpt from his letter of reply [same source, my translation].

The grounds stated in the proposed requirement to resume cooperation are not such that they will yield the expected results. Makarios has in the course three and a half years demonstrated that he will definitely not respect Turkish votes and opinions. In this time, even though at all meetings the Turks have participated and striven to defend their rights and interests in all matters, they have been unable to make gains in any regard and have not been able to circumvent Greek Cypriot domination. We thus believe that there exists no possibility, by means of our renewed participation in the state organisation, of being able, as has been claimed, to defend Turkish rights and interests. Indeed, it has become abundantly clear from his actions that henceforth Makarios will only consent to our return to the state mechanism if we accept his conditions. In fact, over the course of the past two months, even if the Turks have not attended cabinet meetings, the Vice-President has officially vetoed the decisions which he took concerning established internal affairs and external security and which are mentioned in the proposals. Even though the right of veto was exercised, the Makarios government did not budge from its pre-conceived position. The futility of attending meetings is demonstrated not only by earlier experiences, but also by the ineffectiveness of this latest instance in which the veto was exercised. Renewed participation in the government of Makarios, who has declared the Vice-President and the Turkish Minsters to be rebels, would be tantamount to coming under the yoke of the Greek Cypriots or even exposure to peril. On the other hand, the belief that EOKA members would permit the Turkish Ministers to go to their Ministries and take charge of them and would submit to this amounts an excessive degree of optimism. For example in the case of the Ministry of Defence, it is clear that there is no possibility or chance that members of the unofficial Cyprus army whose number has currently reached 20,000 would once more submit to the authority of this Turkish Ministry. It is thus an exercise in pure fantasy to imagine that the return of the Minister of Defence to his post will serve the interests of the Turkish Community.

[zan]

Well. What was expectation of Makarios and his backing crew when they prepared those 13 amendments? Have u any idea? Under todays circumstances we may say even though u knew it will be a waste of time to sit down in the parliament, calmly; keep playing the game and see what will happen. Yeah, if i were Kuchuk i would do that. To guess the Kuchuk's and his crew's psychology and mentality under those conditions; we need to know all the datails of political life and what was going on in the background of both parties during 1960-63 period. It's easy to summarize the events of 1963 as Makarios put forward 13 amendments for discussion and TCs ran away from the RoC to create and excuse for partition.

That's right Insan, you and I don't know what was going on at the time and for you to make assumptions is pointless. The person who was in a position to know would have been Inönu and Küçük, and Inönu told Küçük to go back to the RoC government according to the letters because he must have had his good reasons. Küçük also had his reasons for not going back, but not necessarily for the same reasons that Inönu had.

It is perhaps only fair to give Kutchuk's side of the story, so here is an excerpt from his letter of reply [same source, my translation].

The grounds stated in the proposed requirement to resume cooperation are not such that they will yield the expected results. Makarios has in the course three and a half years demonstrated that he will definitely not respect Turkish votes and opinions. In this time, even though at all meetings the Turks have participated and striven to defend their rights and interests in all matters, they have been unable to make gains in any regard and have not been able to circumvent Greek Cypriot domination. We thus believe that there exists no possibility, by means of our renewed participation in the state organisation, of being able, as has been claimed, to defend Turkish rights and interests. Indeed, it has become abundantly clear from his actions that henceforth Makarios will only consent to our return to the state mechanism if we accept his conditions. In fact, over the course of the past two months, even if the Turks have not attended cabinet meetings, the Vice-President has officially vetoed the decisions which he took concerning established internal affairs and external security and which are mentioned in the proposals. Even though the right of veto was exercised, the Makarios government did not budge from its pre-conceived position. The futility of attending meetings is demonstrated not only by earlier experiences, but also by the ineffectiveness of this latest instance in which the veto was exercised. Renewed participation in the government of Makarios, who has declared the Vice-President and the Turkish Minsters to be rebels, would be tantamount to coming under the yoke of the Greek Cypriots or even exposure to peril. On the other hand, the belief that EOKA members would permit the Turkish Ministers to go to their Ministries and take charge of them and would submit to this amounts an excessive degree of optimism. For example in the case of the Ministry of Defence, it is clear that there is no possibility or chance that members of the unofficial Cyprus army whose number has currently reached 20,000 would once more submit to the authority of this Turkish Ministry. It is thus an exercise in pure fantasy to imagine that the return of the Minister of Defence to his post will serve the interests of the Turkish Community.

Thanks Tim. How about the quote from Greece asking Makarios to give it up....But Kikapu thinks the only person that should have listened was of course Denktas and Dr. Kucuk....Sod what was actually happening. Just follow along like some lobotomised Greek Stepford wives...

[YFred]

The Oracle speaks:

But regardless: No one has forced the EU "Constitution" on any member countries. They chose to join.

Tell that to Ireland, they were told to vote yes, they said NO, they will be given one one chance to do as they are told, if they dont, they will be thrown out of the EU


is'nt the EU great

Another bloody foreigner poking his nose into the affairs of Cyprus!!

I wish you debate the issue rather than revert to a racist chants.
If you analyse the vote in Ireland, you may see a different picture.
What were the issues that the Irish voting for?
Was it what was on the ballot box or was their other more local totally irrelevant issues used by the receptionist to manipulate people to vote No.
What was the role of Capitalist in this vote and how much money did they put into their campaign and Why. Did it influence the vote?. Who has the most to loose by joining the Euro?

This is a very complicated question if you wish to simplify it. It can be quite simple. Capitalist started EU because it made sense for trade. But those enemies of capitalism decided that it was as good a vehicle to promote socialist ideas and have been very successful in general with the exception of opt outs.

But the strange thing is, those nasty big boys accepted a duration of 6 moths for office of the president no matter what population size. Fancy that.

Can we learn from it?

[YFred]

Well. What was expectation of Makarios and his backing crew when they prepared those 13 amendments? Have u any idea? Under todays circumstances we may say even though u knew it will be a waste of time to sit down in the parliament, calmly; keep playing the game and see what will happen. Yeah, if i were Kuchuk i would do that. To guess the Kuchuk's and his crew's psychology and mentality under those conditions; we need to know all the datails of political life and what was going on in the background of both parties during 1960-63 period. It's easy to summarize the events of 1963 as Makarios put forward 13 amendments for discussion and TCs ran away from the RoC to create and excuse for partition.

That's right Insan, you and I don't know what was going on at the time and for you to make assumptions is pointless. The person who was in a position to know would have been Inönu and Küçük, and Inönu told Küçük to go back to the RoC government according to the letters because he must have had his good reasons. Küçük also had his reasons for not going back, but not necessarily for the same reasons that Inönu had.

It is perhaps only fair to give Kutchuk's side of the story, so here is an excerpt from his letter of reply [same source, my translation].

The grounds stated in the proposed requirement to resume cooperation are not such that they will yield the expected results. Makarios has in the course three and a half years demonstrated that he will definitely not respect Turkish votes and opinions. In this time, even though at all meetings the Turks have participated and striven to defend their rights and interests in all matters, they have been unable to make gains in any regard and have not been able to circumvent Greek Cypriot domination. We thus believe that there exists no possibility, by means of our renewed participation in the state organisation, of being able, as has been claimed, to defend Turkish rights and interests. Indeed, it has become abundantly clear from his actions that henceforth Makarios will only consent to our return to the state mechanism if we accept his conditions. In fact, over the course of the past two months, even if the Turks have not attended cabinet meetings, the Vice-President has officially vetoed the decisions which he took concerning established internal affairs and external security and which are mentioned in the proposals. Even though the right of veto was exercised, the Makarios government did not budge from its pre-conceived position. The futility of attending meetings is demonstrated not only by earlier experiences, but also by the ineffectiveness of this latest instance in which the veto was exercised. Renewed participation in the government of Makarios, who has declared the Vice-President and the Turkish Minsters to be rebels, would be tantamount to coming under the yoke of the Greek Cypriots or even exposure to peril. On the other hand, the belief that EOKA members would permit the Turkish Ministers to go to their Ministries and take charge of them and would submit to this amounts an excessive degree of optimism. For example in the case of the Ministry of Defence, it is clear that there is no possibility or chance that members of the unofficial Cyprus army whose number has currently reached 20,000 would once more submit to the authority of this Turkish Ministry. It is thus an exercise in pure fantasy to imagine that the return of the Minister of Defence to his post will serve the interests of the Turkish Community.

Thanks Tim. How about the quote from Greece asking Makarios to give it up....But Kikapu thinks the only person that should have listened was of course Denktas and Dr. Kucuk....Sod what was actually happening. Just follow along like some lobotomised Greek Stepford wives...

This is fantastic information for those of us who wish to understand the Cyprus problem. Please keep it up.

Regards

[Get Real!]

The self-defeating aim of “enosis with mummy“, that most leaders of the time aspired, is what ruined Cyprus.

The only justification they had was not knowing any better due to their lack of education back then, but what’s the excuse with otherwise “intelligent” people TODAY???

The fact that certain "otherwise intelligent" people still insist that Cyprus is Greek,perhaps??????? What is their excuse?????

I agree with your gripe and that’s what I’m talking about… what makes someone issue such ignorant statements having seen the calamity that befell on Cyprus in the past from the very same logic?

I am glad we ocassionally agree on something,GR!

The root of all evil is this fanatical ethno-centric nationalism...

It must be burnt at the stake...

Having premature ejaculations over another country (enosis) is NOT nationalism but treason.

Nationalism is what Cyprus needs...

Shit...that makes two things we agree upon...
I am starting to get worried

Is this the second thing you and GR! agree upon?

.... That both of you advocate Turkey is needed in the north to help the "poor" TCs?

(Whilst all the while both bashing a fellow EU member country of the RoC).

A little thread to keep track of your menstrual cycles might not be a bad idea for the rest of us...

[zan]

Well. What was expectation of Makarios and his backing crew when they prepared those 13 amendments? Have u any idea? Under todays circumstances we may say even though u knew it will be a waste of time to sit down in the parliament, calmly; keep playing the game and see what will happen. Yeah, if i were Kuchuk i would do that. To guess the Kuchuk's and his crew's psychology and mentality under those conditions; we need to know all the datails of political life and what was going on in the background of both parties during 1960-63 period. It's easy to summarize the events of 1963 as Makarios put forward 13 amendments for discussion and TCs ran away from the RoC to create and excuse for partition.

That's right Insan, you and I don't know what was going on at the time and for you to make assumptions is pointless. The person who was in a position to know would have been Inönu and Küçük, and Inönu told Küçük to go back to the RoC government according to the letters because he must have had his good reasons. Küçük also had his reasons for not going back, but not necessarily for the same reasons that Inönu had.

It is perhaps only fair to give Kutchuk's side of the story, so here is an excerpt from his letter of reply [same source, my translation].

The grounds stated in the proposed requirement to resume cooperation are not such that they will yield the expected results. Makarios has in the course three and a half years demonstrated that he will definitely not respect Turkish votes and opinions. In this time, even though at all meetings the Turks have participated and striven to defend their rights and interests in all matters, they have been unable to make gains in any regard and have not been able to circumvent Greek Cypriot domination. We thus believe that there exists no possibility, by means of our renewed participation in the state organisation, of being able, as has been claimed, to defend Turkish rights and interests. Indeed, it has become abundantly clear from his actions that henceforth Makarios will only consent to our return to the state mechanism if we accept his conditions. In fact, over the course of the past two months, even if the Turks have not attended cabinet meetings, the Vice-President has officially vetoed the decisions which he took concerning established internal affairs and external security and which are mentioned in the proposals. Even though the right of veto was exercised, the Makarios government did not budge from its pre-conceived position. The futility of attending meetings is demonstrated not only by earlier experiences, but also by the ineffectiveness of this latest instance in which the veto was exercised. Renewed participation in the government of Makarios, who has declared the Vice-President and the Turkish Minsters to be rebels, would be tantamount to coming under the yoke of the Greek Cypriots or even exposure to peril. On the other hand, the belief that EOKA members would permit the Turkish Ministers to go to their Ministries and take charge of them and would submit to this amounts an excessive degree of optimism. For example in the case of the Ministry of Defence, it is clear that there is no possibility or chance that members of the unofficial Cyprus army whose number has currently reached 20,000 would once more submit to the authority of this Turkish Ministry. It is thus an exercise in pure fantasy to imagine that the return of the Minister of Defence to his post will serve the interests of the Turkish Community.

Thanks Tim. How about the quote from Greece asking Makarios to give it up....But Kikapu thinks the only person that should have listened was of course Denktas and Dr. Kucuk....Sod what was actually happening. Just follow along like some lobotomised Greek Stepford wives...

This is fantastic information for those of us who wish to understand the Cyprus problem. Please keep it up.

Regards

No problem my friend......

[zan]

The self-defeating aim of “enosis with mummy“, that most leaders of the time aspired, is what ruined Cyprus.

The only justification they had was not knowing any better due to their lack of education back then, but what’s the excuse with otherwise “intelligent” people TODAY???

The fact that certain "otherwise intelligent" people still insist that Cyprus is Greek,perhaps??????? What is their excuse?????

I agree with your gripe and that’s what I’m talking about… what makes someone issue such ignorant statements having seen the calamity that befell on Cyprus in the past from the very same logic?

I am glad we ocassionally agree on something,GR!

The root of all evil is this fanatical ethno-centric nationalism...

It must be burnt at the stake...

Having premature ejaculations over another country (enosis) is NOT nationalism but treason.

Nationalism is what Cyprus needs...

Shit...that makes two things we agree upon...
I am starting to get worried

Is this the second thing you and GR! agree upon?

.... That both of you advocate Turkey is needed in the north to help the "poor" TCs?

(Whilst all the while both bashing a fellow EU member country of the RoC).

A little thread to keep track of your menstrual cycles might not be a bad idea for the rest of us...

I think we might be past that point GR Perhaps the HRT dosage should be recorded though>>>>>

[Kikapu]

Looks like Oracle is showing her vulnerable side today.......Like Kikapu ho is ignoring this thread and his ignorance..

There's nothing more to add Zan, despite Tim's added information from Küçük's book. Books are written from one's own prospective if it's a Biography on themselves and may not be as objective as it can or should be. Inönü on the other hand, understood the situation very well at that time, unless of course, you want to declare him to be an old senile fool. Your choice Zan.!