Cyprus-Forum.com

[samarkeolog]

Perhaps the Communists were undermining the continued struggle for full Cypriot self-determination.

Democracy and communism are poor bed-fellows after all!

The Communists and other leftists were the ones who worked bicommunally and tried to keep the peace. They were the ones who tried to preserve democracy. It was the nationalists who attacked peace and coexistence and democracy.

How has Communism preserved Democracy in the past? What parts of the 1960 Agreement were true to Democracy that should have been preserved; and which parts were undemocratic (or were there none?) and should have been removed/improved?

You are - deliberately - confusing Cypriot/Mediterranean "Communism" (liberal democratic socialism) with Soviet Communism (dictatorial Communism).

Samarkeolog is right of course. The left in Cyprus has never touched a Turkish Cypriot. This is a historical fact, whether the stupid woman likes it or not.

I don't think he said that!

I may not have said the words, "the left in Cyprus has never touched a Turkish Cypriot [or a Greek Cypriot]", but it agrees with what I said and I believe it is true.

Incidentally, does anyone know the exact date EOKA bombed the office of the Limassol District Committee of AKEL? I think it might have been in the late 1950s or early 1960s (1958? 1962?), but I only heard that it happened, not when...

[Oracle]

Perhaps the Communists were undermining the continued struggle for full Cypriot self-determination.

Democracy and communism are poor bed-fellows after all!

The Communists and other leftists were the ones who worked bicommunally and tried to keep the peace. They were the ones who tried to preserve democracy. It was the nationalists who attacked peace and coexistence and democracy.

How has Communism preserved Democracy in the past? What parts of the 1960 Agreement were true to Democracy that should have been preserved; and which parts were undemocratic (or were there none?) and should have been removed/improved?

You are - deliberately - confusing Cypriot/Mediterranean "Communism" (liberal democratic socialism) with Soviet Communism (dictatorial Communism).

I am not confusing anything. I simply asked you some questions to see what you meant. But clearly you do not know, since you have no answers.

Samarkeolog is right of course. The left in Cyprus has never touched a Turkish Cypriot. This is a historical fact, whether the stupid woman likes it or not.

I don't think he said that!

I may not have said the words, "the left in Cyprus has never touched a Turkish Cypriot [or a Greek Cypriot]", but it agrees with what I said and I believe it is true.

Incidentally, does anyone know the exact date EOKA bombed the office of the Limassol District Committee of AKEL? I think it might have been in the late 1950s or early 1960s (1958? 1962?), but I only heard that it happened, not when...

Never mind what you meant, I pointed out to Bananiot what you did not say, since he accused me of not agreeing with it, even though I in fact did not even touch on deaths of TCs, but simply asked you the above questions on Democracy.

Both you and Bananiot can come on the forum and "mean" all you like despite not "saying" anything, but please do not come on here and attribute what you would like to "mean" to things I have not said!

Because I say what I mean!

Now, have you unflapped enough to deal with at least some of my original questions ...

What parts of the 1960 Agreement were true to Democracy that should have been preserved; and which parts were undemocratic (or were there none?) and should have been removed/improved?

[Bananiot]

Samarkeolog I do not remember the exact date but here is the SG of AKEL Papaioannou condemning the attack:



By the way, the first Greek Cypriot that was killed by the Brits after the beginning of the EOKA struggle was Andreas Georgiou, killed on 29/9/1955. He was a member of PEO.

[samarkeolog]

Banana Wrote:

When TMT asked the TC’s to move into the enclaves, we paved their way and we made sure they stayed there.

The TMT made sure they stayed there and not the GCs.

I know the following extracts are long, but you can just read the highlighted stuff. Patrick (1976) said that:

the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. Most refugees expected to return to their homes within a few months....

Normally the Leadership was approached by village elders only after the villagers had already decided to evacuate, and they sought the Leadership's assistance [i]n the provision of transport and refugee housing. Any official administrative organization to direct refugee movements, or to oversee their welfare, was not established until the bulk of the refugees had already moved on their own initiative....

In most cases, refugees fled from their homes, leaving clothing, furniture and food behind. Most of the abandoned villages and quarters were ransacked and even burned by Greek-Cypriots....

In review, the pattern of refugee movement was not one that seems to have been designed to facilitate partition. (The original, apparently inaccessible address is here.)
Although it appears unlikely that there was any centralized co-ordination of the Turk-Cypriot refugee exodus, there is ample proof that Turk-Cypriot political and military leaders controlled the return of refugees to their former homes. It is known that in late 1964 some local Fighter commanders resorted to armed threats and even murder to prevent some refugees from moving into government controlled areas,[69] but it is not known to what extent such actions were directed or condoned by leaders....

However, such coercion should be put in perspective. The government was prepared to encourage the return of Turk-Cypriot refugees provided that they accepted government authority and that they did not return to 'sensitive' areas.... The acceptance of such pre-conditions would have won for the government the victory that it had failed to achieve by its armed offensive.... In any case, by August 1964, the abandoned homes were looted and often burned-out ruins.

Cyprus-Conflict.net seems to have forgotten to pay its fee, so it might not be available any more and I can't get the Google Cache copy like I did above, but, in a second extract, Patrick explained:

In August 1964, following the Kokkina battle, the government blockaded all movements of people and supplies into the Turkish-Cypriot enclaves of Nicosia, Lefka, Limnitis and Kokkina. On 5 September, the Turkish-Cypriot quarters of Famagusta and Larnaca were also blockaded.
The government subsequently eased its blockade. This action was partially in response to UNFICYP pressure, and to agreements by which the Turkish-Cypriots undertook, on their part, to allow Greek-Cypriot traffic to pass through Limnitis and along the Kyrenia-Nicosia highway in UNFICYP-controlled convoys.[12] The government also eased the blockade lest it caused so much hardship to the Turkish-Cypriots that it would force them into a desperate and violent action to encourage Turkey to invade.... it served to increase inter-communal enmity, and to unite Turk-Cypriot factions behind chauvinistic TMT leaders....

By mid-September 1964, the enclaves of Nicosia, Lefka and Kokkina remained blockaded, although foodstuffs, clothing, kerosene and medical supplies were allowed in on a rationed basis.... By 15 November, substantial freedom of movement had been allowed in and out of Lefka, and government-imposed rationing of non-strategic materials was not being maintained there. On 20 November 1964, the government removed rationing of non-strategic materials for the Turkish-Cypriot quarter of Nicosia, and allowed Turk-Cypriots to enter and leave that quarter subject to rigorous searches for strategic goods....

During the entire period under review (i.e. August 1964 to November 1967) the government maintained its strict blockade of the Kokkina enclave, although on 10 June 1965 it lifted its restrictions on the import of non-strategic materials there as well. The strategic materials list was revised several times before it was withdrawn completely in March 1968. The most significant effect of this list was to prevent the importation of any building or maintenance materials, spare automotive or electrical parts into Turkish-Cypriot enclaves. The result was a progressive deterioration of Turkish-Cypriot housing and means of production.

Now, I'm not defending what the Turkish Cypriot extremists did. I'm explaining it. Patrick noted that,

On 4 March 1964, Turk-Cypriots evicted all Armenians from the Turkish-Cypriot quarters of Nicosia. This expulsion followed on the discovery of apparent collusion between some Armenians and armed Greek-Cypriot irregulars.... [T]he Armenians had cast their lot with the Greek-Cypriots.[64] In the light of this decision, and of the situation created by the conflict, the responsibility for the Armenian expulsion cannot be wholly attributed to Turk-Cypriot extremists.

That suggests that Armenian extremists, like Greek Cypriot extremists and Turkish Cypriot extremists, invited violence against their own community. All of the extremists used violence against innocents. Also, all of them accepted violence against innocents within their own community, because then the moderates within their community had to support them, because they were the only people who could protect them from the other communities' extremists. Again, like all of the others, ordinary Armenian Cypriots were screwed by their community's extremists.

[Tim Drayton]

Samarkeolog,
I am just curious as to why you set so much store by this one particular source, i.e. Patrick (1976).

[samarkeolog]

Perhaps the Communists were undermining the continued struggle for full Cypriot self-determination.

Democracy and communism are poor bed-fellows after all!

The Communists and other leftists were the ones who worked bicommunally and tried to keep the peace. They were the ones who tried to preserve democracy. It was the nationalists who attacked peace and coexistence and democracy.

How has Communism preserved Democracy in the past? What parts of the 1960 Agreement were true to Democracy that should have been preserved; and which parts were undemocratic (or were there none?) and should have been removed/improved?

You are - deliberately - confusing Cypriot/Mediterranean "Communism" (liberal democratic socialism) with Soviet Communism (dictatorial Communism).

I am not confusing anything. I simply asked you some questions to see what you meant. But clearly you do not know, since you have no answers.

I am not going to waste my time going through the 1960 Constitution line by line.

And if you do not understand the difference between believing in freedom as well as equality (democratic socialism) and believing in unfree equality (dictatorial Communism), it wouldn't matter how much time I wasted, you would never understand.

True (democratic) socialists/anarchists believe that 'freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality'. Soviet Communists don't.

Never mind what you meant, I pointed out to Bananiot what you did not say, since he accused me of not agreeing with it, even though I in fact did not even touch on deaths of TCs, but simply asked you the above questions on Democracy.

I could not have said that 'Communists and other leftists were the ones who worked bicommunally and tried to keep the peace. They were the ones who tried to preserve democracy. It was the nationalists who attacked peace and coexistence and democracy'..., if I meant that they had killed innocent people!

Both you and Bananiot can come on the forum and "mean" all you like despite not "saying" anything, but please do not come on here and attribute what you would like to "mean" to things I have not said!

Okay, we'll stick to what you said. You said Communists undermined Cypriot self-determination. It was nationalist violence that forced people to write the 1960 Constitution the way it was. So, it was nationalist violence that prevented "self-determination" (by which you mean, but do not say, enosis).

It was also nationalist ideology that broke that constitution. And it was nationalist violence that destroyed Cypriot community. It was nationalist ideology that led to the Greek Junta and Greek Cypriot extremists' coup. It was nationalist violence that led to the Turkish Army and Turkish Cypriot extremists' occupation. It is nationalist ideology that has kept Cyprus divided. What has Cypriot democratic socialism done?

[denizaksulu]

I would suggest that the eviction of the Armenians began as early as late Dec 1963 and early January 1964. I remember very clearly seeing the bodies offour murdered Armenian neighbors, in front of the British High Commisioners Residence in Koshklu Ciftlik (nearly behind Ledra Palace Hotel, where I lived term time. If I remember rightly, one was the local baker. They were innocent.

[Oracle]

I am not going to waste my time going through the 1960 Constitution line by line.

You don't have to. Some salient features which you loved about it, will do; plus anything that riles with democracy, according to what you "mean" by Democracy, of course.

That should do nicely.

BTW .... Is this yours?

http://samarkeolog.blogspot.com/

[samarkeolog]

Samarkeolog,
I am just curious as to why you set so much store by this one particular source, i.e. Patrick (1976).

Well, as a Canadian, he was entirely outside of any problematic historical relationship (not Cypriot, Greek, Turkish, British, American, whatever). He was as close as anybody could get to neutral, and (as far as I know) he was recognised as neutral, so normally both sides accept what he says. Plus he worked as a peacekeeper on the island, then cared so much he conducted research there, so he had an altruistic emotional intention and a huge amount of direct personal experience and indirect information from members of all communities and institutions.

He provides an enormous amount of detail of Cypriots' experiences and situations and from them the logics that explained why they did the things they did - and he does it equally, and equally sympathetically, for all communities, which is very rare. Also, a lot of the other sources spend a lot more time on leaders and their diplomacy, or on Great Power games.

If we were discussing British and American/Greek and Turkish/Cypriot elites' responsibility, I guess I would put a lot of trust in Umut Özkırımlı and Spyros Sofos, Christopher Hitchens, or Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig. If we were discussing what happened during the British colonial period I guess I would trust Rebecca Bryant.

There are other benefits, too. Two chapters of his book are online, so people can check I'm quoting him accurately. (And I have his book with me! I lost my place in London, so I'm back at my parents' at the moment. I can't get hold of much here...)

[samarkeolog]

I would suggest that the eviction of the Armenians began as early as late Dec 1963 and early January 1964. I remember very clearly seeing the bodies offour murdered Armenian neighbors, in front of the British High Commisioners Residence in Koshklu Ciftlik (nearly behind Ledra Palace Hotel, where I lived term time. If I remember rightly, one was the local baker. They were innocent.

Sadly, most of the victims were, weren't they? Even when people have guns, they prefer to fight others who don't. The extremists get the guns, and the moderates get the bullets...