Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Bullshit about the reasons why ENOSIS aws not achieved in 1964...but then thats par for the course with you....

Can you give us a date as to when the ENOSIS movement started and when Taksim started...How about he dates on when EOKA was formed and then the TMT.......

Really? So with 20,000 Greek troops on the ground, who was going to stop us?

The EOKA struggle began in 1955. It is the devine right of the GCs to be fighting for their own determination.

TMT was formed in 1958 and instigated the first intercommunal atrocities:

In June of 1958, a bomb explosion outside the information office of the Turkish Consulate-- later shown to have been planted by Turkish extremists (the "TMT")--set off the first intercommunal clashes on Cyprus. As noted by British author Christopher Hitchens in his highly acclaimed work on Cyprus, Hostage to History, the self-proclaimed president of Cyprus' occupation regime, Rauf Denktash, admitted in a 1984 interview that it was a Turkish Cypriot friend who planted the bomb. As a result, "Turkish Cypriots promptly burned out a neighbouring district of Greek shops and homes, in what was to be the first Greek-Turkish physical confrontation on the island. A curfew was imposed, and Greek guerrillas [were] blamed [by British authorities] for the bomb as they were for everything else."

Bafidis says: "TMT was formed in 1958 and instigated the first intercommunal atrocities".

Do you have any figures of the number of the victims you mentioned during these atrocities? Also I must remind you that the TMT was formed after and as a counter measure to EOKA/ENOSIS.

Better not remind him of the Megali idea...He will explode!!!

[Truth]

Bullshit about the reasons why ENOSIS aws not achieved in 1964...but then thats par for the course with you....

Can you give us a date as to when the ENOSIS movement started and when Taksim started...How about he dates on when EOKA was formed and then the TMT.......

Really? So with 20,000 Greek troops on the ground, who was going to stop us?

The EOKA struggle began in 1955. It is the devine right of the GCs to be fighting for their own self determination.

TMT was formed in 1958 and instigated the first intercommunal atrocities:

In June of 1958, a bomb explosion outside the information office of the Turkish Consulate-- later shown to have been planted by Turkish extremists (the "TMT")--set off the first intercommunal clashes on Cyprus. As noted by British author Christopher Hitchens in his highly acclaimed work on Cyprus, Hostage to History, the self-proclaimed president of Cyprus' occupation regime, Rauf Denktash, admitted in a 1984 interview that it was a Turkish Cypriot friend who planted the bomb. As a result, "Turkish Cypriots promptly burned out a neighbouring district of Greek shops and homes, in what was to be the first Greek-Turkish physical confrontation on the island. A curfew was imposed, and Greek guerrillas [were] blamed [by British authorities] for the bomb as they were for everything else."

Christopher Hitchens is not a reliable source. In his book Cyprus pp. 54-55 he says:

... real intercommunal fighting broke out just before christmas 1963. Eye-witness accounts of this period are scant and murky, partly because few of the participants in the violence have very much to boast about.

whereas there are a lot of independent eye-witness accounts of those events which were nothing but a murderous campaign of ethnic clensing of Turkish Cypriots by Greek Cypriots.

“We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears.”
The Daily Express, 28 December 1963

“It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of a doctor—allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats.”
The Guardian, 31 December 1963

“When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children’s cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house.”
The Daily Herald, 1 January 1964

“Greek Cypriot fanatics appear bent on a policy of genocide.”
The Washington Post, 17 February 1964

There may have been sporadic killings from both sides before. However, what sets the Christmas of 1963 apart from any other episode of violence is the fact that tens of thousands of Turkish Cypriots were driven out of their homes. This was a first in Cyprus. This is a fact all participants of this forum should face.

[samarkeolog]

Perhaps the Communists were undermining the continued struggle for full Cypriot self-determination.

Democracy and communism are poor bed-fellows after all!

The Communists and other leftists were the ones who worked bicommunally and tried to keep the peace. They were the ones who tried to preserve democracy. It was the nationalists who attacked peace and coexistence and democracy.

[Bananiot]

I have been very busy these days and did not have the time to get involved in many threads. Usually one or two is enough for me. However, having just read through this thread I feel I need to voice my opinion too.

When EOKA started its armed struggle I was much younger than Miltiades but these were very tense years and all of us that lived through them have vivid memories of events. I would also say that mentally we developed much faster than normal because of the conditions that prevailed then. At the tender age of ten, I would wait in earnest to listen to the news with the grown ups and I would sit with grown up company to listen to their debates. At night we would gather outside someone's home and talk politics. That was the life back then. I remember like it was yesterday Radio Athens declare that the heroic boys of EOKA killed two more enemies in Famagusta, I think in 1958. In fact I knew that the murdered were two 18 year old English girls who were an easy target to shoot from behind. The next day, Radio Athens tried to correct things and put the blame on the Turks.

AKEL from day one in 1955 when EOKA started its struggle, disagreed strongly with the methods used. AKEL called for mass, political struggle to achieve self rule. AKEL certainly was for enosis but this had to do with an inherent fear of the ethnarchy, I feel. As a youngster from a family that was sympathetic to AKEL, I took part in many party-organised, peaceful demonstrations, shouting at the top of my head, e,e,e,enosis. AKEL had and still has an excellent relationship with Turkish Cypriots. Many of them were and some still are, members of the party. Some paid with their lives this affiliation in the hands of TMT. The insistence of AKEL for enosis, especially after 1960, led many of its TC members to abandon the party. Dervis Ali Kavazoglu did not, and tried within the party to appeal to the leadership for a change. The leadership was by now hiding under the cloths of Makarios and played his tune. Kavazoglu found himself literally in no mans land. On one hand the TMT were after him and on the other he became an embarrassment for the leadership of AKEL. The people that were supposed to protect him let him walk into the TMT trap. I think Kavazoglu is a real Cypriot hero who cared greatly about Cyprus and its people. I have just finished reading a book about him by his life long friend Christakis Vanezos and I must admit I feel rather disturbed at the moment.

Let us now return to the original post of Paphitis. This person is merely trying to prove that the other side is solely to blame. Some TC's of the same calibre as Paphitis do exactly the reverse. They are sister souls really. Their blame game is based on an insatiable appetite to outgun the enemy, albeit with peaceful means at present. I distance my self from them. I want the mistakes of my side to bear on me like whip lashes that tear into the flesh. I know that many TC’s feel like this too for their side. My side – their side, how ridiculous! Enough with the sentiment, back to some historical events.

I was listening to a Palestinian leader today from the West Bank. He condemned the Israeli attacks and he said some wise words. What Israel is doing, he said, is to give a boost to the Arab extremists and diminish the influence of the moderate Palestinians. This is exactly what we did in 1963. We elevated to a hero status the extremists of the Turkish Cypriot community who are now acclaimed as heroes by many. We did because we played their game. If Paphitis is correct that there was a hidden agenda for partition of Cyprus we need to admit that we had a hidden agenda for enosis that involved the silencing by all means of those that could oppose enosis. When Denktash and his TMT planted the bomb as Paphitis says in order to blame the GC side we reacted by attacking ordinary TC’s. This is exactly what TMT wanted. When TMT asked the TC’s to move into the enclaves, we paved their way and we made sure they stayed there.

Yes Paphitis, even if the historical events you have referred to are correct, you need to accept that we fell for them. As always, Paphitis has blamed others for our inadequacies and the Brits are the obvious choice. The story of the murdered people from Kondemenos is told in such a way as to prove that the Brits sent them on the death march in order to spark the intercommunal conflict. That is absolute rubbish and those that know better can tell Paphitis that the Brits only tried to save them for they were part of an armed group that organised attacks on TC villages of the area. Nikitas got it too when he said:

Yes Paphitis, but the problem is that we fell for it. Instead of seeing the plot we indulged in the mainland Greeks' idiotic anti communist bullshit that fragmented the GC community and neutralised its ability to resist Taksim.

However, I would like to know of his ideas as to how we could neutralise the taksim drive of TMT.

That is all for now, I am called for dinner and this is one duty that cannot wait.

[Paphitis]

Deniz Wrote:

Do you have any figures of the number of the victims you mentioned during these atrocities?

The first victims of any Inter Communal Violence were GCs:

Next the British released from jail eight Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters, forcing them to walk through the Turkish village of Guenyeli, where they were quickly set upon and murdered. Thus began two months of violence by extremists on both sides, killing 56 Greeks and 53 Turks. Tellingly, the British arrested 2,000 Greeks, but only 60 Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

On 12 June 1958 eight innocent unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians from Kondemenos village were murdered by T.M.T. terrorists near the Turkish Cypriot populated village of Geunyeli in an totally unprovoked attack, after being dropped off there by the British authorities. After this the Turkish government ordered the TMT to blow up the offices of the Turkish press office in Nicosia in order to falsely put the blame of the Greek Cypriots and prevent independence negotiations from succeeding. It also began a string of assassinations and murders of prominent Turkish Cypriot supporters of independence.

ON June 12 1958, eight innocent unarmed Greek Cypriots were murdered by TMT.

Further evidence that TCs instigated the first violent acts against GCs:

In June 1958 the British prime Minister Harold Macmillan was expected to proposed a plan to resolve the Cyprus issue. In light of the new development the Turks created fierce riots in Nicosia aiming to promote the idea that Greeks and Turks could not live together and therefore any plan that would promote that would not be viable, instead partition would be the only viable solution. This violence soon to be followed by bombing, Greek Cypriots deaths and looting of Greek owned stores and houses resulted in Greeks and Turks started to evade mixed populated villages that the respective were a minority in search of safety. This was effectively the beginning of segregation of the two communities.[8]. On the 7th of June 1958 a bomb exploded at the entrance of the Turkish Embassy in Cyprus. Following the bombing Turkish Cypriots looted Greek Cypriot properties. On June 26th 1984 the then Turkish Cypriot Leader, Rauf Denktaş, admitted on British channel ITV that the bomb was placed by the Turks themselves in order to create tension.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... l-violence

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pT4EpCV2ysk

Also I must remind you that the TMT was formed after and as a counter measure to EOKA/ENOSIS.

The TMT was formed to further the TC dream for partition:

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority. In a single week over 600 families, two-thirds of them Greek, left their homes, and many Turks who left Greek areas did so under intense pressure from Turkish separatists.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence. Turks caught smoking Greek cigarettes or visiting Greek shops were beaten, and Turkish gangs forced some Turkish Cypriots to resign from Greek Cypriot trade unions. In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT. Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia. "Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created. However, this so-called `first phase' of the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey only partly succeeded, since well over half of its brethren refused to obey instructions to abandon their homes for the predetermined enclaves" (The Making of Modern Cyprus, Panteli). On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

[Oracle]

Perhaps the Communists were undermining the continued struggle for full Cypriot self-determination.

Democracy and communism are poor bed-fellows after all!

The Communists and other leftists were the ones who worked bicommunally and tried to keep the peace. They were the ones who tried to preserve democracy. It was the nationalists who attacked peace and coexistence and democracy.

How has Communism preserved Democracy in the past? What parts of the 1960 Agreement were true to Democracy that should have been preserved; and which parts were undemocratic (or were there none?) and should have been removed/improved?

[Bananiot]

Samarkeolog is right of course. The left in Cyprus has never touched a Turkish Cypriot. This is a historical fact, whether the stupid woman likes it or not.

[Oracle]

Samarkeolog is right of course. The left in Cyprus has never touched a Turkish Cypriot. This is a historical fact, whether the stupid woman likes it or not.

I don't think he said that! Your blood is obviously too busy around your dinner-filled guts, to extend too much towards oxygenating your brain.

[Paphitis]

Banana Wrote:

Let us now return to the original post of Paphitis. This person is merely trying to prove that the other side is solely to blame.

No. My aim is to counter TC propaganda and myth.

I seek the truth through healthy debate. And as I uncover the facts, I use them against the enemies of Cyprus who are propagating their propaganda to legitimise their invasion and occupation of my country.

Banana Wrote:

If Paphitis is correct that there was a hidden agenda for partition of Cyprus we need to admit that we had a hidden agenda for enosis that involved the silencing by all means of those that could oppose enosis.

ENOSIS was the goal during the struggle for self determination in 55-59. The ideal of ENOSIS ceased, otherwise ENOSIS would have been declared in 1964 when Greece had the troops to be able to deal with TMT and any threat of invasion more easily.

Banana Wrote:

When Denktash and his TMT planted the bomb as Paphitis says in order to blame the GC side we reacted by attacking ordinary TC’s. This is exactly what TMT wanted.

No! The TCs believed that it was the GCs that planted the bomb at the Turkish Embassy, and so they attacked the GCs This is what TMT wanted as they knew the GCs would defend themselves just like any other race would have:

In June 1958 the British prime Minister Harold Macmillan was expected to proposed a plan to resolve the Cyprus issue. In light of the new development the Turks created fierce riots in Nicosia aiming to promote the idea that Greeks and Turks could not live together and therefore any plan that would promote that would not be viable, instead partition would be the only viable solution. This violence soon to be followed by bombing, Greek Cypriots deaths and looting of Greek owned stores and houses resulted in Greeks and Turks started to evade mixed populated villages that the respective were a minority in search of safety. This was effectively the beginning of segregation of the two communities.[8]. On the 7th of June 1958 a bomb exploded at the entrance of the Turkish Embassy in Cyprus. Following the bombing Turkish Cypriots looted Greek Cypriot properties. On June 26th 1984 the then Turkish Cypriot Leader, Rauf Denktaş, admitted on British channel ITV that the bomb was placed by the Turks themselves in order to create tension.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... l-violence

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pT4EpCV2ysk

The first victims of Inter communal aggression were also GCs:

On 12 June 1958 eight innocent unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians from Kondemenos village were murdered by T.M.T. terrorists near the Turkish Cypriot populated village of Geunyeli in an totally unprovoked attack, after being dropped off there by the British authorities. After this the Turkish government ordered the TMT to blow up the offices of the Turkish press office in Nicosia in order to falsely put the blame of the Greek Cypriots and prevent independence negotiations from succeeding. It also began a string of assassinations and murders of prominent Turkish Cypriot supporters of independence.

Banana Wrote:

When TMT asked the TC’s to move into the enclaves, we paved their way and we made sure they stayed there.

The TMT made sure they stayed there and not the GCs:

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority. In a single week over 600 families, two-thirds of them Greek, left their homes, and many Turks who left Greek areas did so under intense pressure from Turkish separatists.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence. Turks caught smoking Greek cigarettes or visiting Greek shops were beaten, and Turkish gangs forced some Turkish Cypriots to resign from Greek Cypriot trade unions. In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT. Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia. "Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created. However, this so-called `first phase' of the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey only partly succeeded, since well over half of its brethren refused to obey instructions to abandon their homes for the predetermined enclaves" (The Making of Modern Cyprus, Panteli). On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

Banana Wrote:

As always, Paphitis has blamed others for our inadequacies and the Brits are the obvious choice.

No Bananiot. I blame those that invaded Cyprus and continue to occupy Cyprus for over 34 years. I blame those that wanted to partition Cyprus, and still want to legitimise their invasion by propagating lies!

Banana Wrote:

The story of the murdered people from Kondemenos is told in such a way as to prove that the Brits sent them on the death march in order to spark the intercommunal conflict. That is absolute rubbish and those that know better can tell Paphitis that the Brits only tried to save them for they were part of an armed group that organised attacks on TC villages of the area.

Any Link to back up your statement?

Even if true, why did the Brits drop these poor Cypriots into the lion’s den of a TMT controlled area? Did they seriously believe that the TMT were going to greet these poor GCs with rose petals and shout them Turkish coffee?

Banana Wrote:

Nikitas got it too when he said:

Do you like misquoting and misappropriating people?

Nikitas was referring to Leftist and Fascist polarity in Cyprus, which divided the island and also resulted in a disastrous coup against the Makarios Government.

This is what Nikitas said:

Yes Paphitis, but the problem is that we fell for it. Instead of seeing the plot we indulged in the mainland Greeks' idiotic anti communist bullshit that fragmented the GC community and neutralised its ability to resist Taksim.

Banana Wrote:

However, I would like to know of his ideas as to how we could neutralise the taksim drive of TMT.

The TMT could not be neutralised. they even bombed their own embassy in order to achieve their mission of partition.

THE MAIN OBJECTIVE AND GOAL OF THE TMT WAS PARTITION EVEN IF NOT THE OBJECTIVE OF ALL TCs

[denizaksulu]

Deniz Wrote:

Do you have any figures of the number of the victims you mentioned during these atrocities?

The first victims of any Inter Communal Violence were GCs:

Next the British released from jail eight Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters, forcing them to walk through the Turkish village of Guenyeli, where they were quickly set upon and murdered. Thus began two months of violence by extremists on both sides, killing 56 Greeks and 53 Turks. Tellingly, the British arrested 2,000 Greeks, but only 60 Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

On 12 June 1958 eight innocent unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians from Kondemenos village were murdered by T.M.T. terrorists near the Turkish Cypriot populated village of Geunyeli in an totally unprovoked attack, after being dropped off there by the British authorities. After this the Turkish government ordered the TMT to blow up the offices of the Turkish press office in Nicosia in order to falsely put the blame of the Greek Cypriots and prevent independence negotiations from succeeding. It also began a string of assassinations and murders of prominent Turkish Cypriot supporters of independence.

ON June 12 1958, eight innocent unarmed Greek Cypriots were murdered by TMT.

Further evidence that TCs instigated the first violent acts against GCs:

In June 1958 the British prime Minister Harold Macmillan was expected to proposed a plan to resolve the Cyprus issue. In light of the new development the Turks created fierce riots in Nicosia aiming to promote the idea that Greeks and Turks could not live together and therefore any plan that would promote that would not be viable, instead partition would be the only viable solution. This violence soon to be followed by bombing, Greek Cypriots deaths and looting of Greek owned stores and houses resulted in Greeks and Turks started to evade mixed populated villages that the respective were a minority in search of safety. This was effectively the beginning of segregation of the two communities.[8]. On the 7th of June 1958 a bomb exploded at the entrance of the Turkish Embassy in Cyprus. Following the bombing Turkish Cypriots looted Greek Cypriot properties. On June 26th 1984 the then Turkish Cypriot Leader, Rauf Denktaş, admitted on British channel ITV that the bomb was placed by the Turks themselves in order to create tension.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... l-violence

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pT4EpCV2ysk

Also I must remind you that the TMT was formed after and as a counter measure to EOKA/ENOSIS.

The TMT was formed to further the TC dream for partition:

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority. In a single week over 600 families, two-thirds of them Greek, left their homes, and many Turks who left Greek areas did so under intense pressure from Turkish separatists.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence. Turks caught smoking Greek cigarettes or visiting Greek shops were beaten, and Turkish gangs forced some Turkish Cypriots to resign from Greek Cypriot trade unions. In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT. Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia. "Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created. However, this so-called `first phase' of the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey only partly succeeded, since well over half of its brethren refused to obey instructions to abandon their homes for the predetermined enclaves" (The Making of Modern Cyprus, Panteli). On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

Tragic and foolhardy as it was. What do yo know about the eight who lost their lives. According to the British they were part of a group of GCs ready to carry out an attack on a TC village. Bananiots above post also refers to this. Last year a British Army report was produced here giving an account of the event.

I will forgive you for blaming the TMT for these killings. As usual everything is blamed on them. Perhaps they were killed by farmers and shepherds ready to defend their villages. Do you have any proof that the people who carried out the deed were in fact the TMT.

Perhaps we also have fallen victim to accusations of blaming all TC killings on the EOKA. Perhaps, some had personal grudges to settle. Will we ever find out the truth?