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Enclaves and the Turkish TMT plot for TAKSIM!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby BirKibrisli » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:13 am

Bananiot wrote:Paphitis wrote

There were many opportunities for ENOSIS to be declared. In 1964, Greece had some 10,000-12000 troops on the island and Makarios could have declared ENOSIS at this point in time if he desired.

Why wasn't ENOSIS declared in 1964 if this was the prime objective of the GCs?


Paphitis is displaying total ignorance of the events of 1964. Instead of relying on the briefings of his mother and other relatives he should do some reading and perhaps he can begin to uncover the truth.

In August 1964 the Turkish war ships were a mere 100 metres off the shores of Cyprus. The national guard was in disarray after the bombing of Kokkina by the Turkish airforce and the inability of Greece to come to our rescue. The first leader of the national guard, General Karayiannis had to resign after only two months in the job having come across the total ignorance of Grivas and Yiorgadjis. Makarios resorted to threats of the type "we will attack the Turkish villages" and Papadopoulos asked for 75 minutes to "clean the Turkish Cypriots if the ships approached to within 12 miles of the coast"!

Such was the situation then and Paphitis says that in this environment, if our objective was enosis, Makarios would have declared union with Greece there and then. Thus, in this masterly way he claims that our aim was never enosis in the 60's.

The man has absolutely lost it but this tends to happen to all zealots who have one track mind.


Some zealots do have stereo minds,Bananiot....But the same thing is on both tracks.... :twisted:
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Postby Paphitis » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:06 am

Paphitis is displaying total ignorance of the events of 1964. Instead of relying on the briefings of his mother and other relatives he should do some reading and perhaps he can begin to uncover the truth.


Let's see if you know what the truth is, and compare it to some factual readings.

In August 1964 the Turkish war ships were a mere 100 metres off the shores of Cyprus.


Can you please post some evidence to back up this ridiculous and unrealistic belief?

I need to know which Turkish Naval vessels got to within 100m of Cypriot shores and where.

Turkish warships did steam towards Cyprus in 1964 but they then halted on advice from Washington, and they did not enter Cypriot Waters.

At one point during the frantic diplomatic activity, Turkish warships steamed towards the island, But when they neared Cypriot waters they suddenly halted, mysteriously echoing the first stage of the Washington plan, in which they were to be asked to delay entering Cypriot territorial waters while the British troops were sent to Cyprus. However, the arrival of the British troops and the UN initiative proved enough to persuade the Turks not just to delay but to abandon their invasion for the time being. Troops on those ships reported later that they were told this was the real thing. "Then just as we approached Cyprus we were told to return to Turkey".
The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig
Pg 100

The national guard was in disarray after the bombing of Kokkina by the Turkish airforce and the inability of Greece to come to our rescue.


Once again, please post evidence that the CNG was in disarray, after the Kokkina bombing?

Just because an area of Cyprus was bombed by TAF Sabre aircraft, does not mean that the CNG was in disarray. Aerial bombardment can only destroy infrastructure and unleash extreme terror on the island, but it cannot destroy an army. A total of 94 sorties were flown by the TAF during 8 and 9 Aug 64.

The National Guard at this stage numbered some 24,000 regulars and was later under the command of Grivas, along with the 950 ELDYK contingent.

and the inability of Greece to come to our rescue.


Another Bananiot lie exposed:

The Greek representative at the UN said that if Turkey's attacks (air strikes) continued, Greek fighters would come to the aid of Cyprus. A squadron of Greek Airforce jet fighters flew over southern Cyprus and Nicosia at low level in a show of force.
The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig
Pg117

The first leader of the national guard, General Karayiannis had to resign after only two months in the job having come across the total ignorance of Grivas and Yiorgadjis.


This is no reason to come up with an ill conceived conclusion that the CNG was in disarray, especially when there is no evidence to prove it.

Grivas returned in late 1964 to take command of the CNG and ELDYK brigade. If General Karayiannis was at odds with Grivas, then he did the honourable thing and resigned, otherwise you make a mockery of the chain of command.

Makarios resorted to threats of the type "we will attack the Turkish villages" and Papadopoulos asked for 75 minutes to "clean the Turkish Cypriots if the ships approached to within 12 miles of the coast"!


Makarios resorted to threats ONLY after the airstrikes around Kokkina and due to the fact that the TCs were smuggling weapons from Turkey and into Kokkina. He did not threaten any TC village for the hell of it, like you portray. Why don't you include all information and not just the part which makes Makarios look like a vindictive warlord, whilst conveniently ignoring the air strikes and TMT weapons smuggling which forced the attacks upon Kokkina due to security concerns to the island’s sovereignty?

Once again there is no evidence whatsoever that Turkish warships came within 12 NMS of the coast. It was on the second day of air strikes when Makarios warned Ankara that if the airstrikes did not cease, then all Turkish Cypriot villages would become potential potential targets of Greek Cypriot attacks. Further indication that the CNG was NOT in disarray.

Perhaps you are referring to this:

There were reports from Athens that Turkish warships had entered Cypriot territorial waters and rumours that Turkish troops were actually landing in the North West of the island.
The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig
Pg116

So what evidence do you have that proves your posts to be factual?

Such was the situation then and Paphitis says that in this environment, if our objective was enosis, Makarios would have declared union with Greece there and then. Thus, in this masterly way he claims that our aim was never enosis in the 60's.


Wrong again Bananiot.

This is what I said:
There were many opportunities for ENOSIS to be declared. In 1964, Greece had some 10,000-12000 troops on the island and Makarios could have declared ENOSIS at this point in time if he desired.


So why was ENOSIS not declared when the balance was clearly favourable to Greece and the US was not going to allow any Turkish intervention at the time?

But then you deliberately miss my most important point of all:

Furthermore, since Turkey was "official aware" that ENOSIS was not the objective at this point and that the Greek Cypriots did not intend any bloody action against the TCs, why did Turkey proceed with the planned invasion?


Can you please answer the above question?

Why did Turkey invade, when ENOSIS was abandoned well before 1974 and as they were informed that ENOSIS was not the objective of the coup and that the matter was a purely GC issue?

My point proves one thing:
The answer to this question proves the FACT that whilst the GCs abandoned ENOSIS long ago, shortly after independence, the TMT continued its terror campaign against both GCs and TCs, in order to keep the TCs enclaved for the purposes of achieving TAKSIM, which was their dream from 1957.
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Postby insan » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:28 am

Paphitis wrote:

Can you please answer the above question?

Why did Turkey invade, when ENOSIS was abandoned well before 1974 and as they were informed that ENOSIS was not the objective of the coup and that the matter was a purely GC issue?

My point proves one thing:
The answer to this question proves the FACT that whilst the GCs abandoned ENOSIS long ago, shortly after independence, the TMT continued its terror campaign against both GCs and TCs, in order to keep the TCs enclaved for the purposes of achieving TAKSIM, which was their dream from 1957.


Hello Paphitis maybe u trust the views of a proffesor who is Associate Professor and Chair person of the Turkish and MiddleEastern Studies Dept. of University of Cyprus in the "free areas". No?

"Fully concentrated, pure Enosis’
Due to the 1964 fights the Turkish Cypriot side was drawn back/sacked from government positions and the bicommunal Republic of Cyprus was left in the hands of Greek Cypriots and slowly began to act as a Greek Cypriot nation-state. As a matter of fact, in the 1965 dated ‘goodwill’ letter sent to the UN by Makarios, it was stated that the Turkish Cypriots would be given enlarged minority rights. The same year AKEL sent a letter to the communist parties worldwide asking for support for Makarios and denying the government model based on two ethnic communities. According to AKEL the fundamental element of the Republic of Cyprus, the bicommunal element was an “artificial result created by imperialism.”
Following the end of the London Conference, when in no positive results being achieved, the bloody fights in Cyprus continued for a while and the Greek Cypriot side tended openly towards Enosis. Greek Cypriots declared to the entire world that they “disregarded” the Zurich and London Agreements and started to look for ways to achieve Enosis through mutual talks with Greece.
All the while there were diplomatic initiatives by the UN, the US and NATO to find a solution to the Cyprus Problem. For example the US assigned Dean Acheson as the Private Representative of President Johnson. Acheson presented a ‘solution plan’ that was based on dissolving the Republic of Cyprus and was presented to both parties in July 1964. However Makarios officially announced that they rejected to the plan on 12 August 1964.
Makarios, who was determined not to accept any suggestion which did not involve the idea of ‘Self-Determination/Enosis’, was also very cautious towards the ‘coup-based-Enosis’ plan prepared by Greek Minister of Defence Karafulyas and accepted by Prime Minister Papandreou and King Constantine in August 1964. According to that plan the Greek Parliament and the Cyprus House of Representatives would assemble at the same time and the Greek Parliament would approve of the unilateral Greek Cypriot decision on Enosis. According to Karafulyas, the possibility of Turkey declaring war in such a case would go beyond 10%. Karafulyas, who wanted to explain the plan in detail, came to Cyprus and they had long debates with Makarios and tried to dissolve the worries of the Greek Cypriots. For example the Greek Cypriots were worried that once Enosis was achieved their living standards would regress. Karafulyas informed that there would be economic offers for Greek Cypriots and tax reduction would be made. For those with worries related to their political careers, he specifically emphasised that the current Greek Cypriots MPs would be Greek MPs and the Ministers would take their place next to the Greek Ministers at the Greek Cabinet. Makarios was convinced and asked: “This is ok in principle, however I have one question, will I be the assistant-King in the Greek Kingdom?”

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=3185
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Postby samarkeolog » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:44 am

Paphitis wrote:
Makarios resorted to threats of the type "we will attack the Turkish villages" and Papadopoulos asked for 75 minutes to "clean the Turkish Cypriots if the ships approached to within 12 miles of the coast"!


Makarios resorted to threats ONLY after the airstrikes around Kokkina and due to the fact that the TCs were smuggling weapons from Turkey and into Kokkina. He did not threaten any TC village for the hell of it, like you portray. Why don't you include all information and not just the part which makes Makarios look like a vindictive warlord, whilst conveniently ignoring the air strikes and TMT weapons smuggling which forced the attacks upon Kokkina due to security concerns to the island’s sovereignty?


Collective punishment is immoral and illegal. What possible security concerns could have excused attacking, for example, Galinoporni?
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Postby Bananiot » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:02 am

What took you so long to reply Paphitis? Lets have it. By the way, Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig are consiracy theorists and utter morons. Keep away from them.
Last edited by Bananiot on Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paphitis » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:07 am

DP
Last edited by Paphitis on Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paphitis » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:14 am

insan wrote:
Paphitis wrote:

Can you please answer the above question?

Why did Turkey invade, when ENOSIS was abandoned well before 1974 and as they were informed that ENOSIS was not the objective of the coup and that the matter was a purely GC issue?

My point proves one thing:
The answer to this question proves the FACT that whilst the GCs abandoned ENOSIS long ago, shortly after independence, the TMT continued its terror campaign against both GCs and TCs, in order to keep the TCs enclaved for the purposes of achieving TAKSIM, which was their dream from 1957.


Hello Paphitis maybe u trust the views of a proffesor who is Associate Professor and Chair person of the Turkish and MiddleEastern Studies Dept. of University of Cyprus in the "free areas". No?

"Fully concentrated, pure Enosis’
Due to the 1964 fights the Turkish Cypriot side was drawn back/sacked from government positions and the bicommunal Republic of Cyprus was left in the hands of Greek Cypriots and slowly began to act as a Greek Cypriot nation-state. As a matter of fact, in the 1965 dated ‘goodwill’ letter sent to the UN by Makarios, it was stated that the Turkish Cypriots would be given enlarged minority rights. The same year AKEL sent a letter to the communist parties worldwide asking for support for Makarios and denying the government model based on two ethnic communities. According to AKEL the fundamental element of the Republic of Cyprus, the bicommunal element was an “artificial result created by imperialism.”
Following the end of the London Conference, when in no positive results being achieved, the bloody fights in Cyprus continued for a while and the Greek Cypriot side tended openly towards Enosis. Greek Cypriots declared to the entire world that they “disregarded” the Zurich and London Agreements and started to look for ways to achieve Enosis through mutual talks with Greece.
All the while there were diplomatic initiatives by the UN, the US and NATO to find a solution to the Cyprus Problem. For example the US assigned Dean Acheson as the Private Representative of President Johnson. Acheson presented a ‘solution plan’ that was based on dissolving the Republic of Cyprus and was presented to both parties in July 1964. However Makarios officially announced that they rejected to the plan on 12 August 1964.
Makarios, who was determined not to accept any suggestion which did not involve the idea of ‘Self-Determination/Enosis’, was also very cautious towards the ‘coup-based-Enosis’ plan prepared by Greek Minister of Defence Karafulyas and accepted by Prime Minister Papandreou and King Constantine in August 1964. According to that plan the Greek Parliament and the Cyprus House of Representatives would assemble at the same time and the Greek Parliament would approve of the unilateral Greek Cypriot decision on Enosis. According to Karafulyas, the possibility of Turkey declaring war in such a case would go beyond 10%. Karafulyas, who wanted to explain the plan in detail, came to Cyprus and they had long debates with Makarios and tried to dissolve the worries of the Greek Cypriots. For example the Greek Cypriots were worried that once Enosis was achieved their living standards would regress. Karafulyas informed that there would be economic offers for Greek Cypriots and tax reduction would be made. For those with worries related to their political careers, he specifically emphasised that the current Greek Cypriots MPs would be Greek MPs and the Ministers would take their place next to the Greek Ministers at the Greek Cabinet. Makarios was convinced and asked: “This is ok in principle, however I have one question, will I be the assistant-King in the Greek Kingdom?”

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=3185


That's all very good Insan, but it does not answer my question.

In your haste, your posted the above in order to justify the 74 invasion and occupation.

However, if you read my post again, you will notice that I was not referring to 1964, nor did I specifically mention any specific point in time where ENOSIS was abandoned. I simply stated that ENOSIS was abandoned long before 1974, and avoided to define the exact point in time as this would prove highly contentious.

You have therefore not answered my question, which was:

Why did Turkey invade, when ENOSIS was abandoned well before 1974 and as they were informed that ENOSIS was not the objective of the coup and that the matter was a purely GC issue?


Also, much of the information above is highly challengeable, but on the other hand, I accept the Professor's work as his own personal opinion.

There are many other sources which challenge the very essence of your post, which suggests that the GC side tended openly towards ENOSIS.

Perhaps you can provide some examples where the Cypriot Government admitted an official policy of ENOSIS? I would be very interested.

Bananiot, it took me a while to respond because I was away doing other things which do not concern you and are of a higher priority than CF.

I was aware of your post, but replying to it just had to wait.
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Postby Bananiot » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:43 pm

Paphitis, I am sorry to say but you are exhibiting total ignorance of historical events that happened only recently. Officially, we abandoned enosis only after the events of Kophinou in 1967. Till then there are numerous resolutions of the Cyprus Parliament that reiterate our burning aspiration for enosis and of course countless speeches by party (all parties) and government officials hailing enosis as the only logical conclusion of our struggle.

Earlier I wrote about Dervis Ali Kavazoglu and the book his close friend Christakis Vanezos wrote about this tragic giant of Greek – Turkish friendship. I think we should now read what Niyazi Kizilyurek wrote in April 2008 on this issue. It illustrates clearly that even AKEL, staunchly supported enosis, let alone the nationalist parties of the Greek Cypriots.

AKEL’s Enosis Policy and the Kavazoglu Tragedy

Although Dervis Ali Kavazoglu fought with all his might for ‘the cause’ despite difficulties, he was deeply sorry for the events that took place in 1964. The reason was not just the bloodshed between the two communities but also that AKEL, the party that he was a proud member of, had decided to return to their Enosis policy, which drove him to take a stand of political solidarity. AKEL had indeed returned to their Enosis policy in 1964, leaving their 1960 “completion of Independence” policy. Kavazoglu had objected to division all his life and he even put his life at stake in order to defend his cause. Now, especially after the establishment of the independent Republic of Cyprus, it was unacceptable to him that the Party had once again gone back to Enosis. His disappointment is obvious in the lines written by Vanezos. In a speech about the fighting in Erenkoy/Mansura made by Hambis Michaelides, a member of the Central Committee, he said “The blood of the Greek Cypriots and their Greek brethren got mixed up in Mansura,” which caused Kavazoglu deep sorrow. When talking about this incident with Vanezos, Kavazoglu, with his head between his hands, could not help but ask: “Then why am I fighting this war?”

He held the leaders of the two communities responsible for the events of 1963-64 and he knew very well that it was difficult to live in peace on an island where blood had been shed. He also knew well that the Enosis policy of the Greek Cypriot Leadership was nothing more than supporting the idea of division. His expectations from AKEL were deep regarding this very issue. Tell the Greek Cypriot community the truth and drive them away from the Enosis policy! Otherwise he felt that the future of the Republic of Cyprus would be very dark.

Unfortunately AKEL’s attitude did not meet Kavazoglu’s expectations as the Party insisted on its own self-determination/Enosis decision and whilst doing so left Dervis Ali in a difficult situation. What Kavazoglu said to Vanezos makes clear the tragic situation that he had been dragged into: “Vanezos, I will carry on with this fight as I have been doing so up until this moment. (...) However AKEL’s Enosis policy is not helping me the least bit and puts me in a difficult situation. (...) How can I help build a Turkish-Greek Cypriot friendship as a member of AKEL? What can I say to the Turkish Cypriots that have cooperated with me about the AKEL Enosis policy, what will I say?” These lines clearly explain the tragic situation that Kavazoglu found himself trapped in.

AKEL Enosis self-criticism

Kavazoglu’s predictions were verified by political events in the days to follow when his party AKEL finally had to accept his prophecy regarding the issue, but, unfortunately their ‘apology’ came 25 years too late. AKEL made an announcement of self-criticism on January 27, 1990 - exactly 25 years after the Kavazoglu assassination – when it admitted that pursuing their Enosis policy during the years 1964-1967 was a “mistake”.

So, you see AKEL officially accepted Dervis Ali Kavazoglu’s words said in the beginning of the 60s twenty-five years later in 1990.


Read the whole article at:

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=2771
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Postby insan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:44 am

Paphitis wrote:
insan wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
That's all very good Insan, but it does not answer my question.

In your haste, your posted the above in order to justify the 74 invasion and occupation.

However, if you read my post again, you will notice that I was not referring to 1964, nor did I specifically mention any specific point in time where ENOSIS was abandoned. I simply stated that ENOSIS was abandoned long before 1974, and avoided to define the exact point in time as this would prove highly contentious.

You have therefore not answered my question, which was:

Quote:
Why did Turkey invade, when ENOSIS was abandoned well before 1974 and as they were informed that ENOSIS was not the objective of the coup and that the matter was a purely GC issue?



Ok dear Paphitis. Let's put aside the opinions of Kizilyurek.

It is too hard even impossible to believe that the matter was purely a GC issue while the leader of the Coup was one of the most ferocious(maybe dangerous than Grivas) , pro-enosis man Sampson. There was only one matter that was purely GC issue; left wing- right wing clashes. Even though that wasn't a purely GC issue too; it was an universal issue. What evidences u have that it was purely a GC issue? And what was the issue and it's reasons, btw?

On the other hand, Turkey informed whole world that it would be a peace operation to restore the constitutional order. However; the coupists, Greece and pro-coupists didn't believe Turkey and combated against Turkish forces. Then we all faced the inevitable consequences.

I wonder ur opinios regarding the intention of Sampson and his backing crew. What could had happen if Turkey didn't intervene? What should Turkey and TCs do under those circumstances? He would politically cleanse all Left-winger GCs? Then all left-winger TCs? Then all right-winger TCs? Then suicide himself?
:roll:
Last edited by insan on Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby insan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:07 am

can someone plz tell me how the name of Karafulyas is written internationally or in Greek?
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