Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

[lovernomore]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

He was another greek bastard with Enosis dreams. No different then the rest, same shit.

[doesntmatter]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

Yes, there was a rivalry going on with Makarios and Grivas, both wanted to be the man to go down in history as the man who got enosis for Cyprus. But, both Makarios and Greece used poor old Grivas as the front man of the eoka terrorist group and made sure that he could not stand for "presidency". He may have been "brave" (shooting civilians and soldiers in the back) but was fool enough to be tricked by both sides. He was nothing but a stool pigeon.

Even to this day I wished that Grivas had stood for "presidency" because had he won, the island would have been divided back in 1964 and a lot of innocent lives would have been saved.

[Paphitis]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

He may have abolished the Republic of Cyprus and declared ENOSIS in 1964, a time when Greece had 20,000 troops in Cyprus.

Combined with the already formed CNG, which would have been consumed within the ranks of the Greek Armed Forces, there would have been very little chance of a successful Turkish Invasion. The US also would not have backed any Turkish action as they deemed Grivas to be their man or agent in Cyprus. What would have happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cyprus could have become a vital link within NATO's southern flank, and the Americans would have been pleased as the threat of Cypriot alignment with the Soviet Union would no longer exist. IMHO.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

I think both Makarios and Grivas worked quite well throughout the 50s and early 60s.

Both men were staunch supporters of ENOSIS. Makarios was the political leader for self determination, whilst Grivas was the leader of the Armed Struggle (EOKA).

Both individuals worked in unison and were political allies throughout. The first bit of friction arose from the fact that Makarios signed the Zurich Agreement in 1959, which Grivas opposed, as he preferred to continue the struggle for ENOSIS.

Despite Grivas objecting to the 1959 Zurich Agreement, he did comply with Makarios' request to declare a ceasefire, presumably because he believed that the ideal of ENOSIS would not be abandoned by Makarios.

I can only presume that Grivas and Makarios were still political allies at this point, despite Grivas being opposed to the Zurich Agreement.

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

It is obvious that the Brits preferred to be dealing with Archbishop Makarios, whilst Grivas proved to be a most irritating figure to British Plans of maintaining complete control of Cyprus.

There is even some conjecture that Grivas was a product of the CIA and their covert operations to destabilise and loosen British influence in the Middle East, which would pave the way for the US as the emerging superpower IMHO.

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

I think the positive relationship between Makarios and Grivas began to sour in 1968 or onwards, when it became apparent to Grivas that Makarios was deviating from his lifelong wish of ENOSIS. IMHO!.

Grivas then formed EOKA B in 1971, in order to destabilise the Makarios Government and enforce ENOSIS. The same organisation was also involved in the Military Coup against the Makarios Government on 15 July 1974.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

I don't think that Makarios was too soft, just because he signed the Zurich Agreement. We are not too sure of the type of coercion used to enforce his hand in order to so.

What is evident about both individuals, is that they both believed they were doing the right thing for Cyprus. They both sacrificed a lot for Cyprus and her people and were staunch fighters for the right of self determination.

The only difference between the 2, is that Makarios eventually abandoned ENOSIS, whilst Grivas never did. Grivas went on and worked towards the destabilisation of the Makarios Government through EOKA B, which also betrayed the Republic of Cyprus by participating in the disastrous coup and paving the way for Turkey's invasion. IMHO!

[paliometoxo]

turkey would of come much sooner with grivas as president...

[Oracle]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

Yes, there was a rivalry going on with Makarios and Grivas, both wanted to be the man to go down in history as the man who got enosis for Cyprus.

So which one wanted to "go down in history" as the one to get rid of the British? ... or was that struggle just a past-time?

But, both Makarios and Greece used poor old Grivas as the front man of the eoka terrorist group and made sure that he could not stand for "presidency".

How did they make sure that he could not stand for the Presidency? He was still pretty much regarded as a hero by the GCs at the time.

Even to this day I wished that Grivas had stood for "presidency" because had he won, the island would have been divided back in 1964 and a lot of innocent lives would have been saved.

Maybe Grivas wanted to keep fighting, and not renege so soon to the British with a half-hearted Independence, which still gave the Brits and Turks unmerited control over our land and government.

So Makarios compromised, perhaps because the TMT were by then making the struggle for full freedom too bloody. Whereas Grivas would have kept fighting the Brits and TMT also, the latter who were his later adversaries, into the 60's.

[miltiades]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

He was another greek bastard with Enosis dreams. No different then the rest, same shit.

Listen stupid , 80 % of Cypriots wanted Enosis , what is wrong with the vast majority wanting to chart the destiny of their own nation.
The bastards are the bloody foreigners like you who are in Turkeys knickers while pretending that they are Turkish Cypriots.
How do you feel about the 80 % of Turks in Turkey NOT allowing the 20% of Kurds freedom to form their own nation , they are all bastards I suppose !!
Since the 60s the overwhelming majority of Cypriots have rejected ENOSIS having for the first time in their 10 thousand year history discovered that they can stand on their own two feet and not needing the support of other nations. In your case Plonker , you are still on all fours , you and the partitionists , the rejectionists of the nation of Cyprus .
Ever thought of joining that vast and hugely impoverished Turkish mainland society !!

[Oracle]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

He may have abolished the Republic of Cyprus and declared ENOSIS in 1964, a time when Greece had 20,000 troops in Cyprus.

Combined with the already formed CNG, which would have been consumed within the ranks of the Greek Armed Forces, there would have been very little chance of a successful Turkish Invasion. The US also would not have backed any Turkish action as they deemed Grivas to be their man or agent in Cyprus. What would have happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cyprus could have become a vital link within NATO's southern flank, and the Americans would have been pleased as the threat of Cypriot alignment with the Soviet Union would no longer exist. IMHO.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

I think both Makarios and Grivas worked quite well throughout the 50s and early 60s.

Both men were staunch supporters of ENOSIS. Makarios was the political leader for self determination, whilst Grivas was the leader of the Armed Struggle (EOKA).

Both individuals worked in unison and were political allies throughout. The first bit of friction arose from the fact that Makarios signed the Zurich Agreement in 1959, which Grivas opposed, as he preferred to continue the struggle for ENOSIS.

Despite Grivas objecting to the 1959 Zurich Agreement, he did comply with Makarios' request to declare a ceasefire, presumably because he believed that the ideal of ENOSIS would not be abandoned by Makarios.

I can only presume that Grivas and Makarios were still political allies at this point, despite Grivas being opposed to the Zurich Agreement.

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

It is obvious that the Brits preferred to be dealing with Archbishop Makarios, whilst Grivas proved to be a most irritating figure to British Plans of maintaining complete control of Cyprus.

There is even some conjecture that Grivas was a product of the CIA and their covert operations to destabilise and loosen British influence in the Middle East, which would pave the way for the US as the emerging superpower IMHO.

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

I think the positive relationship between Makarios and Grivas began to sour in 1968 or onwards, when it became apparent to Grivas that Makarios was deviating from his lifelong wish of ENOSIS. IMHO!.

Grivas then formed EOKA B in 1971, in order to destabilise the Makarios Government and enforce ENOSIS. The same organisation was also involved in the Military Coup against the Makarios Government on 15 July 1974.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

I don't think that Makarios was too soft, just because he signed the Zurich Agreement. We are not too sure of the type of coercion used to enforce his hand in order to so.

What is evident about both individuals, is that they both believed they were doing the right thing for Cyprus. They both sacrificed a lot for Cyprus and her people and were staunch fighters for the right of self determination.

The only difference between the 2, is that Makarios eventually abandoned ENOSIS, whilst Grivas never did. Grivas went on and worked towards the destabilisation of the Makarios Government through EOKA B, which also betrayed the Republic of Cyprus by participating in the disastrous coup and paving the way for Turkey's invasion. IMHO!

I agree with you on virtually all these matters Paphitis; no contradictions with what I've read so far.

But I think the emphasis on Enosis, certainly after 1960, is distorted.

From what I can gather on the man, Grivas, I believe his main objective was to remove the inordinate amount of power the Brits and Turks mastered, into the 60's over the Island, and his only ally, in this simmering, continuous war, was Greece. This perpetual Enosis dream attributed to him, sounds like bad publicity spread by the enemies of Cyprus (Britain and Turkey).

Unfortunately it was too easy after 1967, for Greece to call the shots courtesy of the USA, over Cyprus, and he never fulfilled his passion, which I think towards the end, was total self-determination and democracy for Cyprus, albeit still enlisting the help of the only ally he was familiar with, Greece; but Greece of pre-Junta days!

[Nikitas]

Grivas was not a Greek bastard, he was Cypriot, his family originate in Trikomo and he was born in Cyprus.

He studied at the Greek Military academy, was commissioned in the Greek Army and fought in Asia Minor where he distinguished himself and was decorated. During WWII he chose to remain in Greece, rather than go to the Middle East and fight alongside the allies as did most Greek army officers and many enlisted men.

His record during the war is not clear, there are those that clalim that he collaborated with the Germans. He definitely was a staunch anti communist and that is a side of his character which colored many of his actions and choices in life.

In his anticommunism he is like many, if not most, mainland Greek military men who in the post war years turned the Greek Army into an inward looking apparatus organized for internal counter insurgency and not for dealing with any external enemy. Which explains their behavior in Cyprus and the inability to deal with Turkish plans.

He could not have become the first or any other president of Cyprus because his departure from the island was part of the 1959 settlement. He was unable to understand the democratic process as his feeble attempts at organising a political party in Greece proved. When he returned to Cyprus he did so to subvert the government by force (EOKA B') and not through elections.

In Greece he lived not far from where I now live in Athens and the street he lived in is named Grivas street.

If you want an interesting "what if" game then ask what if Grivas had gone to the Middle East, and gotten in touch with the thousands of Cypriot volunteers fighting the Germans under the British, and hence had won a much wider support among battle hardened veterans, how would that have affected the later events in Cyprus?

[Oracle]

He could not have become the first or any other president of Cyprus because his departure from the island was part of the 1959 settlement.

If it was part of the deal for Grivas to leave Cyprus, then it was another decision made by the Brits and Turks, presumably, and not by the GCs. If Grivas had been allowed to stand against Makarios, who would have won at that time? Surely Grivas commanded a lot of support, before he fell foul after his forced exile and come-back.

When he returned to Cyprus he did so to subvert the government by force (EOKA B') and not through elections.

Sounds like he wasn't allowed to stand in any elections!

If you want an interesting "what if" game then ask what if Grivas had gone to the Middle East, and gotten in touch with the thousands of Cypriot volunteers fighting the Germans under the British, and hence had won a much wider support among battle hardened veterans, how would that have affected the later events in Cyprus?

Are you saying that he lacked support amongst Cypriots in 1959/1960?