Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Oracle wrote:

Are you saying that he lacked support amongst Cypriots in 1959/1960?

Grivas certainly did not lack the support in Cyprus. The only Cypriots who did not support Grivas from the outset, were the Communists.

As far as I am concerned, it was unfortunate that President Makarios derived much of his support from the Communists, which kept him in power.

The mere fact that Britain forbid Grivas returning to Cyprus in the Zurich Agreement, is an indication of how much Britain did fear Grivas as a rallying force for most Cypriots against British imperial influence.

If he was allowed to return, I personally would have liked to see some kind of coalition between both Makarios and Grivas, and without the Communist influence which pressured Makarios to align himself with the Soviet Union. Cyprus may have forged better relations with the west and NATO. Makarios did have at one stage an excellent relationship with the late JFK and the US. Things changed when AKEL began to influence Makarios a bit too much and almost turned Cyprus into another Cuba. It is this that perhaps forced the US to coerce the Greek Junta and EOKA B into deposing Makarios. This may have changed things quite drastically, and Cyprus may not be divided today. IMHO

But Grivas was a military officer first and foremost, and would not necessarily have been the world's most ideal politician.

Maybe Makarios and Grivas together were a Dynamic Duo and that's why the Brits sought to split them up. First by the exile of Makarios in the 50's, then the exile of Grivas in the 60's.

Another case of divide and rule.

The Priest and Dixhenis were very close indeed from the 50's to the early 60's. Even after they remained in close contact. Grivas as stated was never a politician and Makarios was never a military man. That is why Grivas never entered politics.

What is even more bizzare is why did the GC's elect a priest to become their leader. This matter has always baffled me. Any thoughts ?

Even people who were pious, voted for Makarios, not because he was a religious leader, but because the fact he was a priest, suggested he was studious and learned, and because he had proven himself able politically, dealing with the British (even through exile). So the fact he was a Priest was overlooked, certainly wasn't paramount (based on anecdotal recollections). Being a priest then, was not such an extraordinary vocation.

[miltiades]

Neither Paphitis , a foreign born of Cypriot parents not Oracle are repressentative of the Cypriot people.
Miltiades IS .

Miltiades has two foreign born kids with only one Cypriot parent, so what right does he have to laugh at others or call other "foreigners"?

He should also not forget that he supported enosis and still marches with "Cypriots" carrying the Greek flag at demonstartions.

I along with 80% of the Cypriot population supported ENOSIS , I along with perhaps 70% of the Cypriot people have seen the light , and want nothing more than an independent and united Cyprus with occupation troops out and third world 19th century Turkey not in control of 21st century Cyprus.
Have you seen the light mate ?

I wonder who the other 20% could have been...Those that it would have effected the most perhaps???Those that would have lost everything perhaps??? Those that still stand to lose the most perhaps????

What I want to know is where he gets his percentages from?

First of all, it was 96% of GCs who wanted and voted for enosis and not 80%. Maybe he got the 80% from the wine he drinks but where did he get the 70% from? Ouzo?

I said 80% of the Cypriot population stupid , work it out !

[insan]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

He may have abolished the Republic of Cyprus and declared ENOSIS in 1964, a time when Greece had 20,000 troops in Cyprus.

Combined with the already formed CNG, which would have been consumed within the ranks of the Greek Armed Forces, there would have been very little chance of a successful Turkish Invasion. The US also would not have backed any Turkish action as they deemed Grivas to be their man or agent in Cyprus. What would have happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cyprus could have become a vital link within NATO's southern flank, and the Americans would have been pleased as the threat of Cypriot alignment with the Soviet Union would no longer exist. IMHO.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

I think both Makarios and Grivas worked quite well throughout the 50s and early 60s.

Both men were staunch supporters of ENOSIS. Makarios was the political leader for self determination, whilst Grivas was the leader of the Armed Struggle (EOKA).

Both individuals worked in unison and were political allies throughout. The first bit of friction arose from the fact that Makarios signed the Zurich Agreement in 1959, which Grivas opposed, as he preferred to continue the struggle for ENOSIS.

Despite Grivas objecting to the 1959 Zurich Agreement, he did comply with Makarios' request to declare a ceasefire, presumably because he believed that the ideal of ENOSIS would not be abandoned by Makarios.

I can only presume that Grivas and Makarios were still political allies at this point, despite Grivas being opposed to the Zurich Agreement.

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

It is obvious that the Brits preferred to be dealing with Archbishop Makarios, whilst Grivas proved to be a most irritating figure to British Plans of maintaining complete control of Cyprus.

There is even some conjecture that Grivas was a product of the CIA and their covert operations to destabilise and loosen British influence in the Middle East, which would pave the way for the US as the emerging superpower IMHO.

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

I think the positive relationship between Makarios and Grivas began to sour in 1968 or onwards, when it became apparent to Grivas that Makarios was deviating from his lifelong wish of ENOSIS. IMHO!.

Grivas then formed EOKA B in 1971, in order to destabilise the Makarios Government and enforce ENOSIS. The same organisation was also involved in the Military Coup against the Makarios Government on 15 July 1974.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

I don't think that Makarios was too soft, just because he signed the Zurich Agreement. We are not too sure of the type of coercion used to enforce his hand in order to so.

What is evident about both individuals, is that they both believed they were doing the right thing for Cyprus. They both sacrificed a lot for Cyprus and her people and were staunch fighters for the right of self determination.

The only difference between the 2, is that Makarios eventually abandoned ENOSIS, whilst Grivas never did. Grivas went on and worked towards the destabilisation of the Makarios Government through EOKA B, which also betrayed the Republic of Cyprus by participating in the disastrous coup and paving the way for Turkey's invasion. IMHO!

I agree with you on virtually all these matters Paphitis; no contradictions with what I've read so far.

But I think the emphasis on Enosis, certainly after 1960, is distorted.

From what I can gather on the man, Grivas, I believe his main objective was to remove the inordinate amount of power the Brits and Turks mastered, into the 60's over the Island, and his only ally, in this simmering, continuous war, was Greece. This perpetual Enosis dream attributed to him, sounds like bad publicity spread by the enemies of Cyprus (Britain and Turkey).

Unfortunately it was too easy after 1967, for Greece to call the shots courtesy of the USA, over Cyprus, and he never fulfilled his passion, which I think towards the end, was total self-determination and democracy for Cyprus, albeit still enlisting the help of the only ally he was familiar with, Greece; but Greece of pre-Junta days!

U talk like as if only Grivas was the ultimate decision maker of extreme right wing of that era. Same goes with Makarios... Have u ever asked urself who were the planers/ploters giving orders to Grivas? Has Grivas ever tried not to obbey his masters? What abt Makarios? How many bishops from Greece and Cyprus gave him ideas or psychologically forced him abt what to do?

Whoever they were doesn't matter, what matters is that their cause was based on "Megali Idea" and it's extension "Enosis". Although Cyprus has never been ruled by Greeks; the island's culture was tempered and enriched by its position as a crossroads for the commerce of three continents, but in essence it was distinctively Hellenic. It is to this 3,000 years of Hellenic tradition that the present-day Greek Cypriots refer when arguing either for enosis or for their own dominance in an independent state.(Plz read more for details from this link >>http://historymedren.about.com/library/text/bltxtcyprus2.htm)

Well.. even though i don't like political extremists(btw i like extremism in arts and intellectual movements) the cause of Hellens(Greeks and GCs) sounds fair to my mind.

However, another matter of a fact is that there had been abt a 300 years of Ottoman rule on Cyprus and Ottomans conquered Cyprus from Venetians but not from Hellenes. As 3,000 years of Hellenic tradition that the present-day Greek Cypriots refer when arguing either for enosis or for their own dominance in an independent state; 300 years of Ottoman rule and tradition that present day Turkish Cypriots refer when arguing either for equal political rights(as a community) or a seperate TC state.

This also sounds fair to my mind. The essential of the Cyprus problem is based on these 2 main viewpoints that r logical and have acceptable basis. The rest is story and also history. The extremists gave struggle with their methods(That was how they trained by the masters of extremists), Bishops gave struggle with their methods, leftists gave struggle with their methods and soldiers wared with their own methods. We may condemn, critisize or idolize them but can't change them much. The ordinary Cypriots gave support and still giving support any of the above "avant guards" either voluntarily and consciously or under influence of others or in exchange of their self-interests.

I like it or not(Doesn't matter). This is the situation in my eyes.

There r many aspects of Cyprus problem needs to be solved accordingly to the 2 main view points above mentioned. However, let alone all other aspects of Cyprus problem on 1 side; I don't think vast majority of Hellenic political groups and their supporters will ever accept the political equality on community basis. In my humble opinion, this is the core of the Cyprus problem.

Cheers ;d

[Get Real!]

I don't think vast majority of Hellenic political groups and their supporters will ever accept the political equality on community basis. In my humble opinion, this is the core of the Cyprus problem.

Communalizing Cyprus in this day and age (21st century) is the crux of the problem and not whether or not GCs accept TCs as “politically equal”!

Given that 18 can NEVER equal 82 then it is daft to even ponder on the non-existent and self-defeating “political equality” so it’s not in the TCs interests to play the “community” game but to rather look towards a modern democracy backed by the EU.

[doesntmatter]

Neither Paphitis , a foreign born of Cypriot parents not Oracle are repressentative of the Cypriot people.
Miltiades IS .

Miltiades has two foreign born kids with only one Cypriot parent, so what right does he have to laugh at others or call other "foreigners"?

He should also not forget that he supported enosis and still marches with "Cypriots" carrying the Greek flag at demonstartions.

I along with 80% of the Cypriot population supported ENOSIS , I along with perhaps 70% of the Cypriot people have seen the light , and want nothing more than an independent and united Cyprus with occupation troops out and third world 19th century Turkey not in control of 21st century Cyprus.
Have you seen the light mate ?

I wonder who the other 20% could have been...Those that it would have effected the most perhaps???Those that would have lost everything perhaps??? Those that still stand to lose the most perhaps????

What I want to know is where he gets his percentages from?

First of all, it was 96% of GCs who wanted and voted for enosis and not 80%. Maybe he got the 80% from the wine he drinks but where did he get the 70% from? Ouzo?

I said 80% of the Cypriot population stupid , work it out !

So you meant that 100% of GCs wanted enosis, right?

But 96% of GCs are not exactly 100% of GCs, is it?

Plus you also said:

The AKEL followers were against the struggle 1955-1959 from day one .

Now, as far as I know the percentage of AKEL followers were around 20-30% and that makes it much less than 80% of "Cypriots", doesn't it, you foolish old man.

Now then, you are either telling fibs about the "80% Cypriots" or telling fibs about AKEL not supporting enosis, which is it?

Or, maybe you just say the first thing that comes in to your head in the hope that it'll make you look a little "intelligent".

This is turning out to be as much a joke as your childish obsession in calling people "foreigners"while at the same time claiming that your foreign born kids whose mother is a "real foreigner", "Cypriots".

[miltiades]

Neither Paphitis , a foreign born of Cypriot parents not Oracle are repressentative of the Cypriot people.
Miltiades IS .

Miltiades has two foreign born kids with only one Cypriot parent, so what right does he have to laugh at others or call other "foreigners"?

He should also not forget that he supported enosis and still marches with "Cypriots" carrying the Greek flag at demonstartions.

I along with 80% of the Cypriot population supported ENOSIS , I along with perhaps 70% of the Cypriot people have seen the light , and want nothing more than an independent and united Cyprus with occupation troops out and third world 19th century Turkey not in control of 21st century Cyprus.
Have you seen the light mate ?

I wonder who the other 20% could have been...Those that it would have effected the most perhaps???Those that would have lost everything perhaps??? Those that still stand to lose the most perhaps????

What I want to know is where he gets his percentages from?

First of all, it was 96% of GCs who wanted and voted for enosis and not 80%. Maybe he got the 80% from the wine he drinks but where did he get the 70% from? Ouzo?

I said 80% of the Cypriot population stupid , work it out !

So you meant that 100% of GCs wanted enosis, right?

But 96% of GCs are not exactly 100% of GCs, is it?

Plus you also said:

The AKEL followers were against the struggle 1955-1959 from day one .

Now, as far as I know the percentage of AKEL followers were around 20-30% and that makes it much less than 80% of "Cypriots", doesn't it, you foolish old man.

Now then, you are either telling fibs about the "80% Cypriots" or telling fibs about AKEL not supporting enosis, which is it?

Or, maybe you just say the first thing that comes in to your head in the hope that it'll make you look a little "intelligent".

This is turning out to be as much a joke as your childish obsession in calling people "foreigners"while at the same time claiming that your foreign born kids whose mother is a "real foreigner", "Cypriots".

Foreigner , this ain't your country , your motherland is the one whose flag you are using as your avatar. Check it out at any UN or international source , your avatar is the flag of Turkey , this here island , Stupid , is Cyprus get it through your rather thick scull , you are a foreigner living in Cyprus that's all , nothing wrong with that but stop poking your nose into the business of my country.

[Nikitas]

From the US document posted by Zan above:

"5. According to Ioannides only real resistance left on Cyprus were
Communist supporters of Makarios in Paphos; these supporters were
even singing EAM/ELAS3 songs."

If this is a genuine document then it proves what I have said about Ioannides, the man is a psychopath.

How many Cypriots, even now, know who or what are EAM ELAS and can recite the songs of these two organizations?

For those that do not know, and that would be the majority of Cypriots, GC and TC, EAM ELAS were the communist guerrilas who resited the Germans during World War II.

The funny thing that makes me uneasy about this document is that it refers to Ioannides as general when his rank was brigadier.

[Nikitas]

Paphitis said:

"Which brings me back to my point. If Cyprus was not so sternly opposed to the West, and Communist influence was stemmed, then things may have turned out different, and Cyprus may not be divided today."

Cite ONE just ONE instance where Cyprus opposed the West at any time from its inception in 1960 to today.

How would you stem Communist influence in a democratic country in which the Communist party is legal, as it is in England, France, Italy etc? And the party was legal during the British occupation, how could it be outlawed during independence.

[Paphitis]

"5. According to Ioannides only real resistance left on Cyprus were
Communist supporters of Makarios in Paphos; these supporters were
even singing EAM/ELAS3 songs."

The only pocket of resistance that I know existed in Paphos, were those individuals that were involved in setting up the infamous Ham Radio station, where Makarios announced to the Cypriot people that he was still alive, and will continue the resistance against the coupist, and will not abandon his followers. This was despite everyone recommending he flee Cyprus for his own personal safety.

From what I know, those individuals were not singing EAM/ELAS songs. They were not political fundamentalists of this magnitude. They were just individuals, who supported Makarios, and had ultimate faith and allegiance to him. Maybe some may have been AKEL moderates, but most were not. They were more likely to be centrist of moderate right wingers which are more likely to have supported Tassos Papadodoulos or the DIKO party in our times. This is certainly true of my Uncle, who was one of those present, and part of that resistance.

So the above statement is silly.

If this is a genuine document then it proves what I have said about Ioannides, the man is a psychopath.

Let's analyse this objectively.

He may have been a psychopath to us, and other Makarios supporters, but to the CIA he was certainly not.

So now you can see, that the US and CIA already had the organs in place.

How many Cypriots, even now, know who or what are EAM ELAS and can recite the songs of these two organizations?

I can't really comment about this, but I will say that Cypriots in those days were extremely polarised. This was a perceived threat to US interests.

During the Greek Civil War, a Cypriot Soccer team (APOEL) split in 2. The APOEL committee decided to voice their support to the Greek Government forces that were fighting the Communists separatists, and the leftist supporters of the club separated and formed their own team called Omonia. All leftist teams then formed their own league in direct competition to The Cyprus Football Federation, which had also voiced their support to the Greek Government. This kind of stuff is just insane.

So it would not surprise me if some Cypriots were so fanaticised, and sang such songs.

For those that do not know, and that would be the majority of Cypriots, GC and TC, EAM ELAS were the communist guerrillas who resisted the Germans during World War II.

The funny thing that makes me uneasy about this document is that it refers to Ioannides as general when his rank was brigadier.

I can also tell you something else. Any individual that reaches the rank of Brigadier, is certainly no lunatic, unless the Greek Army has some weird or unusual practice of promoting psychopaths. Maybe he was an American puppet, CIA agent, but you cannot tell me he was a psychopath because he said some strange things which may have assisted his propaganda aims. To be entrusted with this rank by The Defence Department and their CIA bosses, is some indication that the guy was no fool. He would have to have been a very dynamic and intelligent leader. If you said to me that he was a traitor to both Greece and Cyprus, then I would agree.

I will get back to you about your other post soon.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis said:

"Which brings me back to my point. If Cyprus was not so sternly opposed to the West, and Communist influence was stemmed, then things may have turned out different, and Cyprus may not be divided today."

Cite ONE just ONE instance where Cyprus opposed the West at any time from its inception in 1960 to today.

How would you stem Communist influence in a democratic country in which the Communist party is legal, as it is in England, France, Italy etc? And the party was legal during the British occupation, how could it be outlawed during independence.

Nikitas, we seem to be on a slightly different wavelength.

It was the AKEL rhetoric and sloganeering which was opposed to NATO and the West. I have the feeling that Makarios was unduly pressured and influenced to forge closer ties with the USSR, which for me was like committing suicide.

This was a threat to the US, and so Henry Kissinger and his Athenian cronies gave the go ahead for the coup. And here we are 34 years later, a country divided.

As far as I am concerned, the AKEL party has a long history of undermining Cyprus, or at the very least, not behaving in a way that would benefit the nation's well being. They initially opposed the 55-59 resistance, they forged close ties with the Soviet Union during the cold war, and more recently, they backstabbed Tassos Papadopoulos during the last elections.

Their anachronistic ideals do not belong in the 21st century. President Christofias last interview about the PfP and the Cyprus Problem were laughable. IMHO!