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President Grivas ...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby miltiades » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:47 pm

Oracle wrote:
Bananiot wrote:May be Paphitis, but this is what you meant, I know your kind. Now, here is a photo of the players of Centinkayia, waiting to enter GSP to play their match against Pezoporikos. The game was never played because the church could not have Turks soil our grounds. This is the essence of our problems but some people do not want to face the truth because they are looking to win the return match. It does not matter to them if we lose again and destroy ourselves forever, as long as they get their second chance.


What's your point?
The Church would not allow us to use their "facility" to have a wedding, without my other half being a baptised Christian. That is their right!

The church would not marry me and my wife unless she was christened.
On the same day of my Orthodox wedding - I had already being married in a civil ceremony 5 years earlier - On the same day of my marriage , my wife was christened as well as my baby son. I asked for a discount on the charge , I was refused . Greedy sods !!

This reminds me of a true personal life story . When I was a month old way back in June 1946 I developed pneumonia and my parents were advised to have me baptized , the church was charging 1 shilling at the time. My father refused to pay saying that in order to be sent to paradise the entrance fee is 1 shilling. I was baptized at home , the fee was paid by my godmother and I have lived to tell the story !!
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Postby Paphitis » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:53 pm

Bananiot wrote:May be Paphitis, but this is what you meant, I know your kind. Now, here is a photo of the players of Centinkayia, waiting to enter GSP to play their match against Pezoporikos. The game was never played because the church could not have Turks soil our grounds. This is the essence of our problems but some people do not want to face the truth because they are looking to win the return match. It does not matter to them if we lose again and destroy ourselves forever, as long as they get their second chance.

Image

Photo taken from today's "Politis"


I have no idea what you are talking about. :roll:

You should know that I am not a Christian or a follower of any faith. No disrespect intended to the Orthodox Church, or other believers in this forum.

If I ever need to follow any fictitious God/s, then I would rather adopt the Ancient Greek Pantheon of Gods, like my vibrant Hellenic forebears did before me many centuries ago. :lol:
Last edited by Paphitis on Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby zan » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:54 pm

A very interesting 399 page article.


http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/96606.pdf


Page 47 - 49:


4528. Subject: Cyprus Coup: Meeting with General Ioannides. Ref:
State 152379.2 For the Secretary.
1 Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Box 1312,
Saunders Chron File, NSC Secretariat, Richard M. Nixon Cables/Contingency Plans 1974,
Cyprus and Greek-Turkish Contingency Plans. Secret; Immediate; Exdis. Repeated to
Nicosia, Ankara, and USNATO. A handwritten note by Clift, presumably to Scowcroft,
reads, “Read this one in detail!”
2 Document 82.
1. I used secure reliable channel directly to General Ioannides to
deliver message reftel. He began by explaining he had personal message
from USG. After emissary had read two paragraphs, Ioannides
commented message must be same as that Ambassador had given
Kypreos, in which case emissary wasting his time since he would receive
message anyway. Emissary explained his job was to finish reading
message and hand it to him and would do so, to which General
Ioannides said fine.
2. After emissary completed message, the General literally blew
up, jumped up, backed up, knocked over a table, broke empty glass
and uttered a strong obscenity. He continued that one day Kissinger
makes public statements regarding non-interference in Greek internal
affairs and a few weeks later the USG says “consistent with the above
principles . . .” and threatens interference. “No matter what happened
in Cyprus I (Ioannides) will be blamed. If I had pulled the troops out
the former politicians would have blamed me for turning the island
over to the Communists. Some day USG will realize that on 15 July 1974
Cyprus was saved from falling into the hands of the Communists”.
3. General then calmed down, came over to where emissary was
sitting and said he knew he understood him: diplomatic talk is timeconsuming
but he would answer in as diplomatic fashion as possible
because he had diplomatic mission.
4. General stated that Greece also believed in non-interference and
in a free, independent, sovereign state of Cyprus; Greece would abide
by the decision of the majority of the Greek Cypriots, most of whom
were nationalists, and these nationalists were the ones who had moved
against Makarios. It was immaterial whether these Greek Cypriot nationalists
moved with or without the prior blessing of Greece or
whether Greek officers subsequently assisted them. At this point he
went off on a tangent stating that neither Greece nor the Greek Cypriots
had asked for enosis, that GOT had obviously accepted these developments
in Cyprus, that Turks understood that the matter was an
internal Greek Cypriot affair.

5. According to Ioannides only real resistance left on Cyprus were
Communist supporters of Makarios in Paphos; these supporters were
even singing EAM/ELAS3 songs. Most of the rest of island was in nationalist
hands. General Ioannides stated that everyone should forget
that Makarios was an international figure, that he was a national hero,
that he had served several useful functions and that he was a man of
the cloth; Makarios had become a rotten priest homosexual; he was
perverted, a torturer, a sexual deviate and the owner of half the hotels
Cyprus 297

3 Reference is to the Greek Communist resistance movement of World War II.
on the island. To preserve his position and to continue his activities,
Makarios was willing to sacrifice seventy per cent of the Greek Cypriot
population (only thirty per cent were AKEL) and entire anti-Communist
Turkish Cypriot population. Ioannides asserted Greek Cypriots in
National Guard realized these facts and had begged motherland for
chance to act against Makarios; General claimed that he only assisted
after being presented with a fait accompli.

6. At this point emissary interjected and told Ioannides point-blank
that, with coup only twenty-four hours after his reporting to us regarding
a possible overthrow of Makarios this was very difficult for
anyone to believe. At this point the General again blew up with arms
waving, knocked over the same table, broke a second glass and, between
obscenities, stated that he did not plot and arrange the coup,
initial plan and approach was from Greek Cypriot nationalists on 13
July, after latter learned that GOG intended to accede to Makarios’ demands
to reduce number of Greek officers in National Guard. General
stated he could not accept at least 85,000 Greek Cypriot refugees from
Makarios’ tyranny. This coupled with Makarios’ anti-regime efforts,
made him decide to assist Greek Cypriot nationalists. The General
stated that if Makarios succeeded in kicking Greeks out of Cyprus what
could keep him from thinking he could not kick junta out of Greece.
After deciding to assist Greek Cypriots, the General claimed that he
did not tell the Armed Forces leadership nor any Greek official. He limited
knowledge of his intentions to few select officers on 13/14 July;
no one else knew and even after events unfolded on 15 July only a
handful of people were aware of his role. Ioannides justified this action
by asserting that if he had briefed numerous people they would
have raised suggestions, advice, alternatives, and possible problems.
He added that he acted on spur of the moment.
7. Ioannides declared that game was now over for Makarios, that
Greek Cypriots had booted him out, that National Guard and Greek
officers had assisted nationalist Greek Cypriot brothers, and that only
resistance now was in Paphos. In reply to emissary’s direct question
Ioannides stated that Makarios was still alive “but who cares; he now
has no power and no one, if he believes in principle of non-interference
in internal affairs of sovereign nation will assist him—not even
the Russians unless Turks ask them to do so and the Turks just don’t
care.”
8. In reply to question whether Greeks were in direct touch with
Turks, General stated we have not bothered the Turks; we have not declared
enosis. Turks agree that “the principal thorn” (i.e., Makarios) is
gone and, “I am not in touch with the Turks.” He expressed view that
Greece and Turkey could now proceed at some future time to sit down,
talk and solve their differences. Indeed, according to Ioannides Greeks
298 Foreign Relations, 1969–1976, Volume XXX
might even be willing to share profits of petroleum finds in a joint exploration
company; however, Greece would never surrender Aegean
continental shelf because this would mean Turkish control of Greek islands.
He also expressed belief that Greek and Turkish Cypriots could
probably solve their difficulties peacefully, quietly and amicably. He
even joked that in a year or perhaps more realistically ten, the Turks
might want to sell their share of Cyprus for increased percentage of
petroleum rights. Again in reply to direct question, General Ioannides
stated that he was not in contact with any Turkish official; however, he
added that Turks were “officially aware” that enosis was not the objective
at this point and that Greek Cypriots did not intend any bloody
action against Turk Cypriots.
9. When asked for specifics on Makarios, Ioannides stated that according
to Greek information, Makarios was alive and in hands of
British at Episkopi Base; he had gone there with assistance of Canadians
and British on island.
10. At this point Ioannides summed up as follows:
A) He stressed that he too had a God; he was definitely not anti-
American; “even a jackass needed a post to be tied to” and in his case
it was the U.S.
B) His hasty decision on 13 July might have been stupid. Instead
of abandoning Cyprus and letting U.S. worry about its fate and pour
money down another rathole, he had allowed love of country, a moral
obligation to the Greek Cypriot nationalists and his “philotimo” to
overrule logic and to assist Greek Cypriots.
C) Greece would do whatever was necessary to preserve its national
identity and to stay anti-Communist. If this meant keeping Yiaros
open it would stay open as long as it was necessary and he would accept
no static from anyone on this score. Indeed, he had instructed a
Greek official to tell British officially that whenever the British let Irish
political prisoners out of British jails, he would free the forty-two Greek
political prisoners on Yiaros.
D) He personally didn’t like Nikos Sampson, but that was Greek
Cypriot nationalist decision. He knew Sampson personally and in his
opinion Sampson was “crazy.” He jokingly remarked that new Cypriot
Minister of Defense Dimitriou was very pro-American and that our Embassy
there would soon realize this. He also knew Dimitriou personally.
E) While shaking hands at close of conversation Ioannides stated,
“Remember we too believe in a free, independent and sovereign Cyprus,
we too believe in non-interference, along with Turks and especially with
Kissinger. We too believe that the Cypriots should be free to solve their
own problems, be they Greek Cypriots, Turk Cypriots or both.”
Tasca
Cyprus 299
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:59 pm

Bananiot,
I do admire your persistence in trying to talk some sense to those whose minds are as closed today to the feelings and wishes of the TCs, as they were in the 40s and 50s...The mindset represented here by the likes or Paphidis and Oracle ,and their TC equivalents,illustrate how and why we find ourselves in the shit that we stand...Add to this mindset the covert and ouvert manipulations of the other interested parties,and we can see how easy it was to divide and rule us...The frustrating part is,after all these years,and after many things coming to light,these people refuse to change their minds about anything...They will not let truth get in the way of their prejudices....Anybody who seriously considers Grivas as someone suitable to be President of Cyprus,does not belong to the same world as you and I...Despite hundreds of thousands of years of evolution,human beings are still unable to rise above their animalistic ,tribalistic and herd instincts....We still need someone to blame,and we still insist on dividing people as "us" and "them",and we still need God to absolve us from guilt and sin...We don't deserve the gift of life,as most of us simply waste it away with bitterness and hatred...This is the hard lesson I learnt on this Forum... :( :(
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Postby Oracle » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:03 pm

I think it is inappropriate for the "older" generation to try and silence the "younger" generation from being inquisitive and asking questions simply because they are uncomfortable in case their own long-held views are made to crumble under analysis.

Already Bir (the fount of all TC experiences of EOKA :roll: ) has been corrected by Miltiades regarding his view on the AKEL input (in the enclaves thread).
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Postby zan » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:08 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:Bananiot,
I do admire your persistence in trying to talk some sense to those whose minds are as closed today to the feelings and wishes of the TCs, as they were in the 40s and 50s...The mindset represented here by the likes or Paphidis and Oracle ,and their TC equivalents,illustrate how and why we find ourselves in the shit that we stand...Add to this mindset the covert and ouvert manipulations of the other interested parties,and we can see how easy it was to divide and rule us...The frustrating part is,after all these years,and after many things coming to light,these people refuse to change their minds about anything...They will not let truth get in the way of their prejudices....Anybody who seriously considers Grivas as someone suitable to be President of Cyprus,does not belong to the same world as you and I...Despite hundreds of thousands of years of evolution,human beings are still unable to rise above their animalistic ,tribalistic and herd instincts....We still need someone to blame,and we still insist on dividing people as "us" and "them",and we still need God to absolve us from guilt and sin...We don't deserve the gift of life,as most of us simply waste it away with bitterness and hatred...This is the hard lesson I learnt on this Forum... :( :(



It breaks my heart to see that the likes of Oracle and Bafidis have claimed another soul for the devil in you Bir. In all those (sometimes) heated discussions we had I knew I was right but deep down hoped I was wrong. That post of yours where you told Piratis that I was right still is burned in my mind. My heart sank.

I hope that they will not damage you any more and that ou will stop trying to convince a pair of shit stirrers of the best kind. They are measured assassins...Simple as that. Our story has to be told and told again to counter the years of inactivity. That is all that matters and the people who read this Forum. Those with a single brain cell will see through these two...They are their own worst enemy...Long may they live with themselves.......
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Postby zan » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:11 pm

Oracle wrote:I think it is inappropriate for the "older" generation to try and silence the "younger" generation from being inquisitive and asking questions simply because they are uncomfortable in case their own long-held views are made to crumble under analysis.

Already Bir (the fount of all TC experiences of EOKA :roll: ) has been corrected by Miltiades regarding his view on the AKEL input (in the enclaves thread).


If the umber of times being corrected is a scale that you hope disqualifies others then you should be the first to go main land Greek girl...You haven't made a single entry in which you knew what you were talking about....Not even in the field in which you say you are an expert!!! :roll: :lol: :lol:
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Postby doesntmatter » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:26 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:Bananiot,
I do admire your persistence in trying to talk some sense to those whose minds are as closed today to the feelings and wishes of the TCs, as they were in the 40s and 50s...The mindset represented here by the likes or Paphidis and Oracle ,and their TC equivalents,illustrate how and why we find ourselves in the shit that we stand...Add to this mindset the covert and ouvert manipulations of the other interested parties,and we can see how easy it was to divide and rule us...The frustrating part is,after all these years,and after many things coming to light,these people refuse to change their minds about anything...They will not let truth get in the way of their prejudices....Anybody who seriously considers Grivas as someone suitable to be President of Cyprus,does not belong to the same world as you and I...Despite hundreds of thousands of years of evolution,human beings are still unable to rise above their animalistic ,tribalistic and herd instincts....We still need someone to blame,and we still insist on dividing people as "us" and "them",and we still need God to absolve us from guilt and sin...We don't deserve the gift of life,as most of us simply waste it away with bitterness and hatred...This is the hard lesson I learnt on this Forum... :( :(


The "divide and rule" theory is a load of crap and is something that is made up by those who wanted enosis to make the gullible believe it was the "Colonial powers", the USA, CIA who was to be blamed for the mess the enosis wishers had started.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:57 pm

zan wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:Bananiot,
I do admire your persistence in trying to talk some sense to those whose minds are as closed today to the feelings and wishes of the TCs, as they were in the 40s and 50s...The mindset represented here by the likes or Paphidis and Oracle ,and their TC equivalents,illustrate how and why we find ourselves in the shit that we stand...Add to this mindset the covert and ouvert manipulations of the other interested parties,and we can see how easy it was to divide and rule us...The frustrating part is,after all these years,and after many things coming to light,these people refuse to change their minds about anything...They will not let truth get in the way of their prejudices....Anybody who seriously considers Grivas as someone suitable to be President of Cyprus,does not belong to the same world as you and I...Despite hundreds of thousands of years of evolution,human beings are still unable to rise above their animalistic ,tribalistic and herd instincts....We still need someone to blame,and we still insist on dividing people as "us" and "them",and we still need God to absolve us from guilt and sin...We don't deserve the gift of life,as most of us simply waste it away with bitterness and hatred...This is the hard lesson I learnt on this Forum... :( :(



It breaks my heart to see that the likes of Oracle and Bafidis have claimed another soul for the devil in you Bir. In all those (sometimes) heated discussions we had I knew I was right but deep down hoped I was wrong. That post of yours where you told Piratis that I was right still is burned in my mind. My heart sank.

I hope that they will not damage you any more and that ou will stop trying to convince a pair of shit stirrers of the best kind. They are measured assassins...Simple as that. Our story has to be told and told again to counter the years of inactivity. That is all that matters and the people who read this Forum. Those with a single brain cell will see through these two...They are their own worst enemy...Long may they live with themselves.......


Zan,
I used to be angry with you a lot,because i thought you were like these two,blind to our part in this saga...In time I came to realise you were simply responding emotionally to all the denial and prejudice you felt aimed at our community...I am sorry it took so long...There is no way any self-respecting TC can live with the likes of Oracle and Paphidis...Not to mention the other more fanatical ones that pop up every now and then...But make no mistake...I still believe any solution other than a democratic one based on one vote one value,equal opportunity and human rights principles would set in concrete our "ethnic' differences,and in the long run prove self defeating...I so wish Cypriots can rise above these animalistic instincts and learn to treat each other as human beings with intrinsic value as such...But there is no way we can put the fate of our community in the hands of the likes of our interlocutors like these two...It was them who convinced me,and not you,because I was really closed to your arguments,I so much wanted you to see the other side of the story as well...I guess we can thank them for small mercies... :wink: :)
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Postby doesntmatter » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:07 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:Bananiot,
I do admire your persistence in trying to talk some sense to those whose minds are as closed today to the feelings and wishes of the TCs, as they were in the 40s and 50s...The mindset represented here by the likes or Paphidis and Oracle ,and their TC equivalents,illustrate how and why we find ourselves in the shit that we stand...Add to this mindset the covert and ouvert manipulations of the other interested parties,and we can see how easy it was to divide and rule us...The frustrating part is,after all these years,and after many things coming to light,these people refuse to change their minds about anything...They will not let truth get in the way of their prejudices....Anybody who seriously considers Grivas as someone suitable to be President of Cyprus,does not belong to the same world as you and I...Despite hundreds of thousands of years of evolution,human beings are still unable to rise above their animalistic ,tribalistic and herd instincts....We still need someone to blame,and we still insist on dividing people as "us" and "them",and we still need God to absolve us from guilt and sin...We don't deserve the gift of life,as most of us simply waste it away with bitterness and hatred...This is the hard lesson I learnt on this Forum... :( :(



It breaks my heart to see that the likes of Oracle and Bafidis have claimed another soul for the devil in you Bir. In all those (sometimes) heated discussions we had I knew I was right but deep down hoped I was wrong. That post of yours where you told Piratis that I was right still is burned in my mind. My heart sank.

I hope that they will not damage you any more and that ou will stop trying to convince a pair of shit stirrers of the best kind. They are measured assassins...Simple as that. Our story has to be told and told again to counter the years of inactivity. That is all that matters and the people who read this Forum. Those with a single brain cell will see through these two...They are their own worst enemy...Long may they live with themselves.......


Zan,
I used to be angry with you a lot,because i thought you were like these two,blind to our part in this saga...In time I came to realise you were simply responding emotionally to all the denial and prejudice you felt aimed at our community...I am sorry it took so long...There is no way any self-respecting TC can live with the likes of Oracle and Paphidis...Not to mention the other more fanatical ones that pop up every now and then...But make no mistake...I still believe any solution other than a democratic one based on one vote one value,equal opportunity and human rights principles would set in concrete our "ethnic' differences,and in the long run prove self defeating...I so wish Cypriots can rise above these animalistic instincts and learn to treat each other as human beings with intrinsic value as such...But there is no way we can put the fate of our community in the hands of the likes of our interlocutors like these two...It was them who convinced me,and not you,because I was really closed to your arguments,I so much wanted you to see the other side of the story as well...I guess we can thank them for small mercies... :wink: :)


"blind to our part in this saga"? What was our "part in this saga" Birkibrisli?
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