Insan, I thought perhaps you were different as you said outright, you did not like Nationalist politics, and yet here you are reciting the Turkish Nationalist rhetoric without a liberal, or lateral thinking nerve cell in your body. (Improvable
).
I know the branded stories about the Megali Idea, and Grivas being trained in Greece (my mother fled from him), and how the Constitution was forced upon Makarios, in order to facilitate both Turkey and Britain.
But you have skimmed the surface of what happened, and fitted the pieces of the puzzle according to a Turkish Justification Theory for the Invasion and Taksim, without wanting to ameliorate for the truth.
insan wrote:Oracle wrote:They were the men at the top. Clearly you agree that they must have had advice, so they couldn't be accused of being corrupted by the amount of power they wielded. A good thing, right?
They weren't the men at the top. Grivas was the leader of the paramilitary Hellenic forces of Cyprus and Makarios was the leader of the GC community. Grivas well trained by fascist, extreme-nationalists and Makarios well educated and moderated by Greek Orthodox church. Now, plz u tell me for what and how Grivas trained by fascist and exteme nationalists; have a guess or do a research abt it plz. How did the Greek Orthodox church and influential arcbishops of Greece moderated Makarios? Was there any difference of on their Great İdea'ls? Have a logical guess or do a research plz. Just a tip for u, nationalism movement in Hellenic nation began in early 1800s...
So there is always someone higher up in the hierarchy. I don't deny Grivas was a Nationalist; he had to be, to fight for Freedom for Cyprus from the Brits. The Brits made it clear, they were not going to negotiate a return of Cyprus. His personal Enosis wishes after Independence, were never fulfilled, due mostly to the resistance of Makarios; whose opinion and Presidential powers Grivas clearly
respected, since he never sought to over-throw Makarios.
Maybe it was Grivas' death in January 1974, that made it easier for Greece to over-throw Makarios. Maybe Grivas kept Greece at bay and away from Makarios; although I do not doubt he would have wanted closer ties with Greece instead of Makarios' preferences with the Russians.
On top of this; Greece itself was never interested in Enosis with Cyprus. They turned this outcome down, on many occasions, and ultimately in 1974, they did
not overthrow the
Presidency, but replaced Makarios with another Cypriot as President, to suit the foreign powers. Greece (i.e. the junta of the time) recognised the RoC as an independent Republic.
That does not mean Greece does not recognise Cyprus as also part of the Hellenic world. But it has always allowed Cyprus its independence from direct Athenic rule; since unlike other City/Kingdoms, Cyprus has never competed for over-all rule of Greece, thus needing to be subdued like other Hellenic states.
We have had a healthy independent relationship from Greece for thousands of years and our only attempt, at seeking help from Greece, was in getting rid of the invaders, who could only use the "justification" that it was a type of Enosis we were seeking, since this is the only way they were familiar with, due to their oppressive British and Ottoman Empires, which destroyed so much!
Please forget your Turkish Nationalistic false history, and read some
neutral history on Cyprus and Greece before the Ottoman/Turks. Greece and Cyprus were always Independent. Cypriots had their freedom from direct Greek rule, yet still had rich cultural exchanges.
Can you understand such a lovely thing, of mutual co-operation, without the need for ultimate rule .... difficult I guess for a Kemalist educated person who has to tow-a-line, rather than enjoy freedom.
insan wrote:Oracle wrote:But Makarios must have been the main man who accepted the 1960 Constitution as it was. Perhaps against (better?) advice from Grivas and others to continue the struggle for full self-determination and Democracy.?
In my opinion that is based on my readings from the reliable sources; under the circumstances of 1960 majority of the Hellenic decision power decided to let Makarios agree the 1960 constitution as it is and make an alternative plan for their ultimate goal. The new plan namely Akritas came out in 1963.
Don't make me laugh abt Grivas plz. Grivas and democrasy is totally opposite things. ;d
I'll agree Grivas was a Nationalist, but since he never came to political power, you cannot accuse him of being a fascist (I'm not saying he would not have been, but we need a benefit of the doubt, since we have no evidence).
Besides, Grivas had 10 years to overthrow Makarios, if he was fascistically minded. Especially once there was a coup in Greece, Grivas could have mimicked this and replaced Makarios with a Cypriot junta in place. He could easily have organised the same in Cyprus. But he didn't. Maybe he respected Democracy/Makarios a little more than you give him credit for.
I take it you are another that agrees with the idea that to keep the TCs
sweet, we have to give them inordinate amounts of power in government.
insan wrote:Oracle wrote:Why would Cyprus, wishing for reinstatement into the Hellenic circle, as a country, have been a Megali Idea? Cyprus did not belong to anyone but Cypriots, and it should have been theirs to do with as they wished.?
If u will pretend like u haven't read anything abt megali idea and it's goal...
No I'm not pretending ignorance about the Megali Idea ( the final hypothetical justice, which will never happen now - bit like the apocalypse
). What
you deny is what has
actually happened which is that Turkey not only took over the lands of the Hellenic world in Anatolia, but is
continuing this expansion into Cyprus. Turkish Megali Idea is happening right now!
So don't over-react about a withered idea, but instead look at the
reality of how much the Turks have taken and continue to take in Cyprus.
insan wrote:Oracle wrote:The Megali Idea was Turkey taking over, extending her "borders"!?
And if u will continue implanting Greeks r the best, f**k the Turks. It is a waste of time for me to discuss anything with u.
Where do we implant Greeks? Greeks are EU members and as such have as much right to be here as Poles, French etc. Do you also object to them being in Cyprus?
Sounds like Turkey/TCs are not ready for Europe/EU if you hate the Greeks so much you are already wishing to restrict their movements within the EU.
insan wrote:Oracle wrote:The majority in Cyprus were always Greek, within recorded history, and hence self-ruled; unless they had been invaded and ruled by others, intermittently.
So what? Being the major settler group makes u the owner of the Cyprus?
I never said we were the owners, but you have to respect the democratic process that all individuals have a right to, and not sweep the Greeks of Cyprus aside, just because you have a chip on your shoulder that they have been custodians of the Island since its first colonisation, nearly 10,000 years ago, with ongoing introductions of other peoples who have all integrated, apart form the Turks .... who somehow remain special.
insan wrote:Oracle wrote:But you have not convinced me the minority community are politically equal. How could they be? Just by demanding?
(Although I stand by their rights as individuals.)
If u haven't realized yet that TCs r one of the 2 major communities of Cyprus then again I don't have anything to discuss with u abt Cyprus problem.
Bye
Stop thinking you are so special and start fitting in like everybody else has to
insan wrote:Ps:
"The legacy of the Megale Idea in the 1920s ..... "
I don't care about the Megali Idea politically! Like your continual recanting of Enosis, you are just proving how behind the times you REALLY are!
