Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

BIR Wrote:

Miltiades is a compassionate,honourable family man,and a truly evolved Cypriot...

[Paphitis]

Paphitis said"

"to forge closer ties with the USSR," and what are these ties for heavens sakes?

The cultural visits by some dancers? Or the sale of second rate zivania to Russia? Look at the trade figures of Cyprus over the years 1960- 1974 and see how the UK is our biggest trading partner. The only industrial goods from the easter block were some tractors and some WWII vintage tanks, less than 20 in total.

You are repeating rumor and not fact. The facts are that Cyprus was firmly anchored in the west well before independence and that is where it stayed ever since. And this makes that whole anticommunist mania of the Greeks seem even more stupid now when we are suffering the consequences of the split in our community.

Is the 15 Jul 74 coup against Makarios a rumour?

C'mon Nikitas, lets not beat around the bush.

It is a FACT, that the Greek Junta along with the support and blessings of the US, wanted to depose Makarios.

The reason why they Junta wanted to depose Makarios, was not at all because they wanted ENOSIS of Cyprus to Greece. This was not the purpose of the Coup. IF ENOSIS was their goal, then ENOSIS would have been declared immediately, and Nicos Sampson would not have been asked to take over the Presidency.

The purpose of the Coup was to depose Makarios, who was deemed to be getting too close to the Soviet Union and was thus becoming uncontrollable and a threat, not to Greece, but to US and NATO influence in the Middle eastern region. I will post some evidence later.

With a US backed fascist military junta in Greece, and 950 ELDYK troops stationed on the island, as well as virtually all officers of the CNG being Greek Army Officers, Makarios was walking on very thin ice due to the sloganeering and rhetoric of AKEL.

@ Nikitas:

Please read Chapter 14 - The NATO PLOT...Plans to Split Cyprus
The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig
Pg113

Following seperate talks in Washington in June 1964, Inonu and Papandreou agreed to formal negotiations at Geneva which Dean Acheson, the distinguished former US Secretary of State, would attend. The talks were to be the first concrete attempt by the Americans to carve up the island between Greeks and Turks. The plan was to build on the creeping seperatism of the Turkish Cypriots, and reflected American military thinking. If the Cyprus Republic was dismantled, and the island split between Greece and Turkey, there would be no "Cassocked Castro" left in power to woo Soviets, no more appeals to non-aligned leaders like Nasser, and an end to Cypriot Communists'hopes of gaining power on the island. There was an important military advantage in this. Under "double enosis", all of Cyprus would be controlled by NATO countries, once more making the whole island available for Western defence purposes, as it had been under British rule

Chapter 16 - The "Red Priest"...Assassination Target
The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig
Pg131

Makarios' flirtations with the Eastern Block struck a raw nerve with the new American President, Nixon.

During the Nixon years, American agencies around the world stopped at nothing to keep pro-Western regimes in power - from backing the right-wing Junta in Greece to plotting against Salvadore Allende in Chile - and they were never likely to balk at overthrowing Makarios if it meant keeping the Cyprus facilities in Western hands. Makarios' history of arms deals with Communist states and his courting of non-aligned leaders such as Nasser made him suspect. An earlier incident in Nixon's presidency tainted him further. In September 1969, when Nixon and his National Security Adviser, Henry Kissinger, were trying to force North Vietnam to the negotiation table to settle the war, they urged friendly nations to apply pressure on the Hanoi Government. But they were furious to discover that Cyprus was one of four non-communist countries still shipping to North Vietnam. When Makarios refused to sever the trading link, Nixon cut off American aid. Throughout his presidency, Nixon backed a military regime in Athens which repeatedly tried to eliminate Makarios by force.

There is much more than the 2 brief extracts above.

[BirKibrisli]

Oracle, you are forgetting that Makarios was not a mere priest, he was MONK, with all that implies. It is a world away from being a regular priest, check it out.

Nikitas, I wasn't doubting his personal credentials as an able priest/monk, or how far he progressed in the Church due to his above-average intelligence, spiritual awareness and sympathetic nature (all of which he had in over-ample abundance ).

I was merely pointing out to those desiring to denigrate the GCs, as being so religiously inclined, that they voted for Makarios, simply because he was a Priest, for the Presidential post. On the contrary, I do believe, the pious voters, chose him as the President because of his political role, and not for his servitude to the Church.

They (the Zanalots) seem unable to accept that someone could be good enough, at two vocations (Priesthood and Politics), to rise to the top (like cream ), in both professions.

And the thought that Makarios' position in the Church might have helped him win votes from the pious GCs never crossed your mind,I suppose...

But I forget,yours is a very very selective mind...

It was the pious voters I was referring to ...

(But it's hard for you to avoid jumping to conclusions ).

Are you serious,Oracle???
What proof do you have that the pious GCs voted for Makarios' political skills and not because he was their religious leader???

Are you really suggesting that the average pious GC voter back in 1959 was able(politically savy enough) to separate the two roles????
I can't believe you can be so naive.....

[BirKibrisli]

Lay off Miltiades,all of you...
Miltiades is a compassionate,honourable family man,and a truly evolved Cypriot...He is man enough to admit that as a boy he was supporting EOKA and the struggle to achieve Enosis....And he is man enough to realise and admit what that struggle has cost Cyprus and is still costing Cyprus...He never has a bad word for anyone who consider themselves Cypriot above all...He is one of the few GCs in this forum who has real empathy for the pain and suffering of the TCs during the 64-74 period....
What else do you want??? His blood???

There are a lot that he does not understand Bir and he invites what he gets. He has never been able to discuss anything without turning it into a slanging match....With anybody!!!!

Not quite...I for one never had a slanging match with miltiades...When we disagree on some point (usually about the USA involvement in Cyprus) we respectfully agree to disagree...I can't remember an instant where miltiades attacked anyone without being provoked first...He has strong opinions about the Cyprus problem and other issues and puts them forcefully...His prefered insult is to call someone a PLONKER,for God's sake!!!

The guy got banned for not being able to control himself Bir......I think that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one He is fair game as far as I am concerned.....A racist and bigot who is only concerned in furthering what they started in 1963.......He got his "RoC" at our expense and he is now trying to sell me what was once mine....He can keep it....I have got other interests now.....

We'll have to agree to disagree on Miltiades' qualities as well...

[zan]

Lay off Miltiades,all of you...
Miltiades is a compassionate,honourable family man,and a truly evolved Cypriot...He is man enough to admit that as a boy he was supporting EOKA and the struggle to achieve Enosis....And he is man enough to realise and admit what that struggle has cost Cyprus and is still costing Cyprus...He never has a bad word for anyone who consider themselves Cypriot above all...He is one of the few GCs in this forum who has real empathy for the pain and suffering of the TCs during the 64-74 period....
What else do you want??? His blood???

There are a lot that he does not understand Bir and he invites what he gets. He has never been able to discuss anything without turning it into a slanging match....With anybody!!!!

Not quite...I for one never had a slanging match with miltiades...When we disagree on some point (usually about the USA involvement in Cyprus) we respectfully agree to disagree...I can't remember an instant where miltiades attacked anyone without being provoked first...He has strong opinions about the Cyprus problem and other issues and puts them forcefully...His prefered insult is to call someone a PLONKER,for God's sake!!!

The guy got banned for not being able to control himself Bir......I think that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one He is fair game as far as I am concerned.....A racist and bigot who is only concerned in furthering what they started in 1963.......He got his "RoC" at our expense and he is now trying to sell me what was once mine....He can keep it....I have got other interests now.....

We'll have to agree to disagree on Miltiades' qualities as well...

It has never ended like this with Miltides......

[Oracle]

Oracle, you are forgetting that Makarios was not a mere priest, he was MONK, with all that implies. It is a world away from being a regular priest, check it out.

Nikitas, I wasn't doubting his personal credentials as an able priest/monk, or how far he progressed in the Church due to his above-average intelligence, spiritual awareness and sympathetic nature (all of which he had in over-ample abundance ).

I was merely pointing out to those desiring to denigrate the GCs, as being so religiously inclined, that they voted for Makarios, simply because he was a Priest, for the Presidential post. On the contrary, I do believe, the pious voters, chose him as the President because of his political role, and not for his servitude to the Church.

They (the Zanalots) seem unable to accept that someone could be good enough, at two vocations (Priesthood and Politics), to rise to the top (like cream ), in both professions.

And the thought that Makarios' position in the Church might have helped him win votes from the pious GCs never crossed your mind,I suppose...

But I forget,yours is a very very selective mind...

It was the pious voters I was referring to ...

(But it's hard for you to avoid jumping to conclusions ).

Are you serious,Oracle???
What proof do you have that the pious GCs voted for Makarios' political skills and not because he was their religious leader???

Are you really suggesting that the average pious GC voter back in 1959 was able(politically savy enough) to separate the two roles????
I can't believe you can be so naive.....

This is the problem with jumping in to a specific clarifying post aimed at someone else, and having not followed the earlier exchanges.

I will be forced to start at the beginning, unless you so kindly do me the favour of backtracking.

From mostly anecdotal evidence, but seeking more; in order to feel "right" about themselves, those most-religious voters detached themselves from his Church dealings. They were so keen on him as a saviour for Cyprus from the Brits, that they backed him politically and metaphorically washed themselves of his religious practices. So, in spite of, and not becasue of!

Which is why I asked the question, if Grivas had stood against Makarios, which one would have gained the greatest votes?

Overwhelmingly, I think the relief at that accomplishment, to be given Sovereignty, with the knowledge that these two, Grivas and Makarios, were the main protagonists for the semi-expulsion of the Brits, made the politics paramount, and propelled people into a new level of maturity.

If Grivas had not fallen out of favour with quite so many, because he had lost his way; or being an old man, failed to change with the times (something Makarios could never be accused of, in fact his youthful desire for improvements met with Turkish disapproval), and tarnished his image, it would not have been too hard to imagine, that he may well have commanded a great deal of support from the electorate, even against Makarios.

[doesntmatter]

Lay off Miltiades,all of you...
Miltiades is a compassionate,honourable family man,and a truly evolved Cypriot...He is man enough to admit that as a boy he was supporting EOKA and the struggle to achieve Enosis....And he is man enough to realise and admit what that struggle has cost Cyprus and is still costing Cyprus...He never has a bad word for anyone who consider themselves Cypriot above all...He is one of the few GCs in this forum who has real empathy for the pain and suffering of the TCs during the 64-74 period....
What else do you want??? His blood???

Ah, but is he man enough to not need the help of someone else to stick up for him though?

I don't care how friendly you are with him Birkibrisli but, the same as I told Babaniot, I will not let you dictate to me what and when I can post. The man is childish enough to think he has the right to demand his rights but refuses to give anyone else their rights. His behaviour, personal attacks and calling TC and GCs "foreigners" who don't support what he demands is childish and stupid.

Was it not his childish personal attacks that got him banned from the forum last time? He hasn't learned anything because he is incapable of learning.

Miltiades is the last man on this forum who needs someone to stick up for him...He is a formidable defender of what he thinks is right...And he gives at least as good as he gets in any slanging match...

I rarely ever come to his defence,but he is always there supporting me when the heat is on...So I am returning the favour...I don't want him to think I don't care about what happenes to him...He is trying to make a point when he calls someone a foreigner...And by your reaction ,he is making his point very effectively...

Right, ok, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.

[Paphitis]

Lay off Miltiades,all of you...
Miltiades is a compassionate,honourable family man,and a truly evolved Cypriot...He is man enough to admit that as a boy he was supporting EOKA and the struggle to achieve Enosis....And he is man enough to realise and admit what that struggle has cost Cyprus and is still costing Cyprus...He never has a bad word for anyone who consider themselves Cypriot above all...He is one of the few GCs in this forum who has real empathy for the pain and suffering of the TCs during the 64-74 period....
What else do you want??? His blood???

Ah, but is he man enough to not need the help of someone else to stick up for him though?

I don't care how friendly you are with him Birkibrisli but, the same as I told Babaniot, I will not let you dictate to me what and when I can post. The man is childish enough to think he has the right to demand his rights but refuses to give anyone else their rights. His behaviour, personal attacks and calling TC and GCs "foreigners" who don't support what he demands is childish and stupid.

Was it not his childish personal attacks that got him banned from the forum last time? He hasn't learned anything because he is incapable of learning.

Miltiades is the last man on this forum who needs someone to stick up for him...He is a formidable defender of what he thinks is right...And he gives at least as good as he gets in any slanging match...

I rarely ever come to his defence,but he is always there supporting me when the heat is on...So I am returning the favour...I don't want him to think I don't care about what happenes to him...He is trying to make a point when he calls someone a foreigner...And by your reaction ,he is making his point very effectively...

Right, ok, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.

[Nikitas]

Paphitis,

This line from O'Malley and Craig is interesting:

"once more making the whole island available for Western defence purposes, as it had been under British rule"

Even under British rule, the centers of military activity were: The radar on Troodos, Dekhelia signals base, Akrotiri air base and perhaps you can add the RN and RAF firing range in Akamas.

ALL OF THE ABOVE were available to the West as SBAs and sundry facilities after 1960 and without a single challenge or threat being presented at any time from any Cypriot quarter. To the above add the two electronic facitlities given to the Americans post 1960.

Having deposed Makarios in 1974 one would have thought that the "Cassocked Castro" was gone and the goal achieved. So why was Turkey allowed to go ahead and invade? Was Turkey seen by the US as a more reliable anticommunist force than the psychopath Ioannides?

With a division of Greek troops on the island in the 60s it would have been just as hard for Cyprus to go communist, yet the Americans pressed the Junta to remove those troops and thus, theoretically, gave a free hand to the Cypriot communists to exert greater influence on the island.

Not much later in an island seen to be just as strategic as Cyprus, in Malta, the British were sent packing by PM Mintoff and all their bases shut down irrevocably. No one moved against Mintoff. This and other instances show that these partial interpretations by analysts do not lead to a clear view of the situation.

Personally I see all these interpretations based on the communist threat etc as rationalisations. The real problem was a long term strategy by Turkey to take over the whole island. A strategy pursued with determination and cunning and which is still valid today. The rest is all window dressing.

[BirKibrisli]

Lay off Miltiades,all of you...
Miltiades is a compassionate,honourable family man,and a truly evolved Cypriot...He is man enough to admit that as a boy he was supporting EOKA and the struggle to achieve Enosis....And he is man enough to realise and admit what that struggle has cost Cyprus and is still costing Cyprus...He never has a bad word for anyone who consider themselves Cypriot above all...He is one of the few GCs in this forum who has real empathy for the pain and suffering of the TCs during the 64-74 period....
What else do you want??? His blood???

Ah, but is he man enough to not need the help of someone else to stick up for him though?

I don't care how friendly you are with him Birkibrisli but, the same as I told Babaniot, I will not let you dictate to me what and when I can post. The man is childish enough to think he has the right to demand his rights but refuses to give anyone else their rights. His behaviour, personal attacks and calling TC and GCs "foreigners" who don't support what he demands is childish and stupid.

Was it not his childish personal attacks that got him banned from the forum last time? He hasn't learned anything because he is incapable of learning.

Miltiades is the last man on this forum who needs someone to stick up for him...He is a formidable defender of what he thinks is right...And he gives at least as good as he gets in any slanging match...

I rarely ever come to his defence,but he is always there supporting me when the heat is on...So I am returning the favour...I don't want him to think I don't care about what happenes to him...He is trying to make a point when he calls someone a foreigner...And by your reaction ,he is making his point very effectively...

Right, ok, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.

And what may I ask is so funny???
It is a True Cypriot thing to support each other...
Foreigners just do not get it...