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[miltiades]

I was pondering today, how things might have turned out if Grivas was the first President of Cyprus, instead of Makarios.

Grivas fought hard to expel the Brits. Why then did he not stand for the Presidency?

Is it that the Zurich Agreement was accepted by Makarios, but refused by Grivas?

Did the Brits thing Grivas was a loose Cannon and preferred him out of the way, in favour of the more accommodating Makarios?

Either way, I am sure some kind of on-going rivalry was at the base of Grivas forming EOKA B.

In other words, Makarios was too soft ...

Yes, there was a rivalry going on with Makarios and Grivas, both wanted to be the man to go down in history as the man who got enosis for Cyprus.

So which one wanted to "go down in history" as the one to get rid of the British? ... or was that struggle just a past-time?

But, both Makarios and Greece used poor old Grivas as the front man of the eoka terrorist group and made sure that he could not stand for "presidency".

How did they make sure that he could not stand for the Presidency? He was still pretty much regarded as a hero by the GCs at the time.

Even to this day I wished that Grivas had stood for "presidency" because had he won, the island would have been divided back in 1964 and a lot of innocent lives would have been saved.

Maybe Grivas wanted to keep fighting, and not renege so soon to the British with a half-hearted Independence, which still gave the Brits and Turks unmerited control over our land and government.

So Makarios compromised, perhaps because the TMT were by then making the struggle for full freedom too bloody. Whereas Grivas would have kept fighting the Brits and TMT also, the latter who were his later adversaries, into the 60's.

While I hold ultimate respect for Grivas during the struggle against the Brits where he fought the might of the British army with a handful of men , at the end of the struggle following the Zurich agreements and his forced departure from Cyprus he became a very irrational and irresponsible individual. He should never have come back to Cyprus , he did because he begun to realise that Makarios was drawing away from what was their mutual aspiration , that of ENOSIS. He never gave up the idea and continued to his death in January of 1974 to fight for ENOSIS.
Our newly formed nation was not given much of chance as an independent nation , since having signed the Zurich agreement our leadership was hell bent on reneging on their signatures and proceeding with the catastrophic journey leading to the Turkish invasion.
We were at fault , we were determined not to be Cypriots , Greek Cypriots yes but Cypriots no.
We had never experienced independence in our long history and just could not accept , as we do now , that we are nationals of an independent nation.

Grivas " appointed "" Georgios Karayiannis a retired Greek General , as the first commander of the CNG in April of 1964 , on whose authority did he act , he then subsequently , in July 1974, appointed himself as the Chief Commander of the National guard issuing direct orders over the head of Karayiannis who offered his resignation .

While all this banana republic warlord acts were taking place what on earth did we expect the Turkish Cypriots to do . Pack up and leave , they did not , we fucked it up folks and have paid the supreme penalty.

ps. Another ambition of Grivas and his followers in the 60s was to deal with those that opposed him whom he considered as traitors , the Communists . The AKEL followers were against the struggle 1955-1959 from day one .

[Nikitas]

The political wing of EOKA B' did enter the elections and got something like 3 per cent of the vote.

There is no way Grivas could have won any election against Makarios because during his many years in Greece, Grivas had become more mainlander than Cypriot. I have heard him speak and he displayed no hint of a Cyprio accent. Makarios on the other hand was a quintessential Cypriot who loved his people and showed it. Whatever anyone says against Makarios, he never divided the people into left or right, as Grivas did.

Support among Cypriots cannot be judged. Grivas hijacked the GCs, never giving them a choice about the end goal or the means to reach it. It is hard to say now if GCs might have preferred independence over Enosis, because that was never asked. Nor if they would have preferred a campaign of civil disobedience over guerrilla war, because that was never asked either.

It is conceivable that if the goal had been independence the British would be facing ALL Cypriots, not just the GCs. Things would have been totally different in a period of decolonisation.

[miltiades]

The political wing of EOKA B' did enter the elections and got something like 3 per cent of the vote.

There is no way Grivas could have won any election against Makarios because during his many years in Greece, Grivas had become more mainlander than Cypriot. I have heard him speak and he displayed no hint of a Cyprio accent. Makarios on the other hand was a quintessential Cypriot who loved his people and showed it. Whatever anyone says against Makarios, he never divided the people into left or right, as Grivas did.

Support among Cypriots cannot be judged. Grivas hijacked the GCs, never giving them a choice about the end goal or the means to reach it. It is hard to say now if GCs might have preferred independence over Enosis, because that was never asked. Nor if they would have preferred a campaign of civil disobedience over guerrilla war, because that was never asked either.

It is conceivable that if the goal had been independence the British would be facing ALL Cypriots, not just the GCs. Things would have been totally different in a period of decolonisation.

After independence Grivas behaved as if he and only he could decide the future of Cyprus. As Nikitas rightly says the Cypriots were never coerced into independence but were "structured" to be Enosis supporters , if you were not you were a Communist. The wishes of the T/Cs were dismissed .

[Paphitis]

Oracle wrote:

Are you saying that he lacked support amongst Cypriots in 1959/1960?

Grivas certainly did not lack the support in Cyprus. The only Cypriots who did not support Grivas from the outset, were the Communists.

As far as I am concerned, it was unfortunate that President Makarios derived much of his support from the Communists, which kept him in power.

The mere fact that Britain forbid Grivas returning to Cyprus in the Zurich Agreement, is an indication of how much Britain did fear Grivas as a rallying force for most Cypriots against British imperial influence.

If he was allowed to return, I personally would have liked to see some kind of coalition between both Makarios and Grivas, and without the Communist influence which pressured Makarios to align himself with the Soviet Union. Cyprus may have forged better relations with the west and NATO. Makarios did have at one stage an excellent relationship with the late JFK and the US. Things changed when AKEL began to influence Makarios a bit too much and almost turned Cyprus into another Cuba. It is this that perhaps forced the US to coerce the Greek Junta and EOKA B into deposing Makarios. This may have changed things quite drastically, and Cyprus may not be divided today. IMHO

But Grivas was a military officer first and foremost, and would not necessarily have been the world's most ideal politician.

[Nikitas]

Paphiti,

This rumor that AKEL was ready to turn Cyprus into another Cuba is a huge inaccuracy. It does not take a PhD in sociology to know that a deeply religious society like the Cypriots cannot be turned into an atheist one. AKEL was simply a reaction of the Cypriot workers against the kunncontrolled practices of moneylending and avarice allowed to flourish under the Ottomans and the British.

By the 1960s when finally a modern cash economy came to the island no one wanted to become communist or socialist. This Cuba stuff is one more of those rumors spread by the mainland Greek contingent, and their US allies, who could not see beyond the end of their noses. It is the bullshit that led us dircelty to the conflict among GCs and the invasion. Let us put that crap to rest. We now know the story, even if some details are missing.

[Paphitis]

Nikitas wrote:

Paphiti,

This rumor that AKEL was ready to turn Cyprus into another Cuba is a huge inaccuracy. It does not take a PhD in sociology to know that a deeply religious society like the Cypriots cannot be turned into an atheist one. AKEL was simply a reaction of the Cypriot workers against the kunncontrolled practices of moneylending and avarice allowed to flourish under the Ottomans and the British.

What an earth does religion have to do with Communism? The restrictions on Catholicism have been removed in Cuba.

Nikitas, I was referring to AKEL's opposition to free market ideals and their insistence in aligning themselves with the Soviet Union during the height of the Cold War.

We all know that the US and NATO were not going to put up with another Cuba within such an extremely important Strategic position such as the East Mediterranean.

It is perhaps this which is the fundamental essence of why Cyprus is divided to this day.

By the 1960s when finally a modern cash economy came to the island no one wanted to become communist or socialist. This Cuba stuff is one more of those rumors spread by the mainland Greek contingent, and their US allies, who could not see beyond the end of their noses. It is the bullshit that led us dircelty to the conflict among GCs and the invasion. Let us put that crap to rest. We now know the story, even if some details are missing.

All I am saying Nikitas, is that AKEL should have been a little more responsible, and should have ceased voicing stern opposition to NATO and the West. Their mentality is anachronistic and does not belong in the 21st century.

President Christofias seems like he was dug from a time capsule, as his views belong to a bygone era. It is like the man is still fighting a Cold War against the West. His statements about the negotiations and the PfP are laughable, and I shudder to think that this man is currently locked into negotiations to solve the Cyprus Problem.

If AKEL really does have the interest of the Cypriot Worker at heart, then they would transform into some form of responsible Socialism, without his ridiculous 1950s Cold War posturings.

[Nikitas]

Patroclos Stavrou the Makarios biographer details a meeting between Makarios and undercretary of State George Ball.

Makarios asked if there was anything that Cyprus was doing in its foreign policy that the US wanted to see stopped, or if there was something Cyprus was not doing that the US wanted done, the answer in both instances was "No".

At that time Cypus had provided two electronic surveillance bases in the north of the island, one in Mia Milia and another near Kyrenia for the USA. It also agreed to US planes using the British bases. It is ironic that both installations were shut by Turkey once it occupied the north.

So where is there any conflict with the west in all this? Where is there any justification for calling Cyprus Cuba of the Middle East?

Russia was a damn good trading partner in the 70s and 80s. All of Cyprus distilled alcohol production went to Russia. Machinery and fertiliser were imported from eastern block countries, but by proportion of total trade Cyprus had less trade with these countries than either West Germany or Great Britain.

So where is the proof of the Cuba accusation?

[Nikitas]

And do tell us Paphitis, now, that Cyprus is ready to join NATO, is it welcome to join? Have you researched this lately? Who stands in the way and why?

Were we ever likely to be admitted into NATO in the past and AKEL raised a banner against us joining? If so, when?

[Paphitis]

And do tell us Paphitis, now, that Cyprus is ready to join NATO, is it welcome to join? Have you researched this lately? Who stands in the way and why?

Were we ever likely to be admitted into NATO in the past and AKEL raised a banner against us joining? If so, when?

Apparently there was a window of opportunity to join under the Clerides Government, but I am not sure what exactly went wrong. My understanding is that the US was willing to facilitate this eventuality.

But I do not like the overtones of sarcasm dear Nikitas, because we are all aware of Turkey's veto rights within NATO, which would prevent Cyprus from joining.

However, things were not always like this, and even Turkey did at one stage recognise the RoC, which further assists my argument that AKEL should have exercised a more responsible doctrine, particularly in the early 1960s. Perhaps my "what if" argument of Makarios and Grivas forming an alliance without Communist influence, rings even more true, should Cyprus have applied for entry into NATO, regardless of the 1960 constitution provisions. Turkey's veto may have not been an obstacle then. But no, we had to persist with resisting the wishes of the West, like we still do today, making us the laughing stock of the world.

And while we are at it, it seems that most of you would rather accept a Gurantor Treaty from Turkey, than perhaps attempt to negotiate something more pallatable or sensible such as Guarantee's from NATO.

[Oracle]

The political wing of EOKA B' did enter the elections and got something like 3 per cent of the vote.

But what about Grivas before EOKA B' ?... when he was still the fresh hero, having been the major force behind the Brits giving up (most) of Cyprus. Surely he was at the height of his popularity in 1959, hence the Machiavellian act of deposing him perhaps.

Grivas obviously wanted a political career after his military achievements.

I am not for one minute suggesting that Makarios was anything more than the more compromising of the two towards the Brits, and maybe Grivas was being altruistic in supporting Makarios' stand as President in 1959, hence leaving quietly, instead of fighting it out for a better Agreement.

There is no way Grivas could have won any election against Makarios because during his many years in Greece, Grivas had become more mainlander than Cypriot. I have heard him speak and he displayed no hint of a Cyprio accent. Makarios on the other hand was a quintessential Cypriot who loved his people and showed it. Whatever anyone says against Makarios, he never divided the people into left or right, as Grivas did.

Yes but Nikitas this is much later, after Makarios was elected. Besides Cypriots in the 50's wouldn't have objected to Grivas' Greekness since there was overwhelming support for Enosis, before Independence was "won".

I want to know who forced him to leave Cyprus and why he agreed to go so readily (clearly with unfinished business).