Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

I think people here are missing the point. Look: no agreement is perfect, and the Annan plan had its share of flaws. The problem is that people want a perfect plan, and that's not going to happen. So the question should be whether the rehashed plan is going to be any better than the current status quo. Remember that the first rejection cost RoCy a great deal of goodwill intenationally. A second rejection under these circumstances may well result in the partition being recognized... Is that possibility a risk worth taking?

Yes it is. We will chance it rather than sign away our country.

And any solution which sees GCs as second class citizens with diminished democratic and human rights, is much worse than the present status quo.

The possibility of recognition is quite futile due to the numerous UN resolutions deeming the "trnc" UDI as illegal and other UN resolutions which call upon Turkey to withdraw her forces from Cyprus and respect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus.

The only avenue left is accession of the "north" by Turkey. Such an act would come at a very big cost..

AWE wrote:

It is only the Cyprus Problem that can truly keep Turkey out of the EU if all other membership requirement were met.

Excellent point!


Zan wrote:

In the same vein....Why doesn't the "RoC" open its governmental doors and invite the return of the TCs to their rightful place. It is a move that neither can take because it would mean the "RoC" was wrong along and that the TRNC would be null and void if it asked before a settlement was going to be signed......It would have to be a big affair for both sides and would mean a virgin birth all over again. Neither side is willing to do this. A double surrender with no winners....Now that would be something!!!

Whilst you illegally occupy 37% of Cyprus, you by default abandon all provisions of the 1960 constitution.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

Please consider this.
If the peace agreement fails because the GCs vote no and TC’s vote yes. Then TRNC is dissolved and RNC is created, is that possible and will the united nations be able to pass a single resolution against it under today’s climate with the knowledge of what’s gone on in the last 30 years of peace talks compounded by the importance of Turkey to USA in the region.

Consider this:
You are making a very BIG assumption, that our President will agree on a peace plan to begin with, and not STALL the negotiations if things appear too one sided. Christofias has done enough to ensure that your side is the one that will be held accountable should the negotiations fail, and that WILL leave you in no man’s land as far as recognition and legitimacy are concerned.

Why should their agreement be one sided. They are both reasonable men at heart. And they actually want to solve the problem. Where there is a will, there is a way.
I cannot see Talat falling in the hole Denktas occupied. Also I cannot see Christofias do what Papadobullos did either. Time will tell. Not long left now.

If what Halil says is true and they are moving on to property issue. That is very good news.

Do you think that TC demands for a seperate and autonomous FIR is reasonable?

We clearly cannot go back to 1959, I wish we could and I mean that I am not just saying. If I was confident of its success, I would support it. However the wreckers are at the ready and would not let it survive. I am no politician and I don't claim to have a deep understanding of different systems of Government. If it was left up to me. I would take the Swiss system, analyse it, see how we can work it, but one thing to watch out for is that there can be no risk of 1963 happening again. I trust Talat just as I trusted Ozgur when they were ridiculed in the north by the establishment when in opposition as being in the lap of AKEL and spineless. A typical vicious stupid attack by the right wing elements when they have lost the argument. And I trust Talat now. He is a good man and he has the interest of all Cypriots at heart.

The real question is when will you purge that Enosis out of your veins, every time the word Cyprus is mentioned. Cyprus does not equal Greece.

[YFred]

FIR.
Isn’t that what negotiation is all about. The GC have have had FIR for so long and used it as a political tool to suffocate the TC economy. Can you give any assurance that that will not repeat after the settlement in a more subtle way, and how. I know it’s a small island, but surely in the interest of fairness can we not split it?

Instead of using FIR for air safety which is what it is used for in all other countries GC government have followed an obsessive policy of suffocation what small economy we had, using tools which should not have been allowed. Which consequently directly lead us to the path of so called Night clubs in the middle of fields and Casinos.
Over here CAA has a wonderful slogan “ Safety is no accident” where does politics come in to it. What is Cyprus CAA policy? How can they sit back and allow such dangers to continue to this day.

[Paphitis]

I think people here are missing the point. Look: no agreement is perfect, and the Annan plan had its share of flaws. The problem is that people want a perfect plan, and that's not going to happen. So the question should be whether the rehashed plan is going to be any better than the current status quo. Remember that the first rejection cost RoCy a great deal of goodwill intenationally. A second rejection under these circumstances may well result in the partition being recognized... Is that possibility a risk worth taking?

Yes it is. We will chance it rather than sign away our country.

And any solution which sees GCs as second class citizens with diminished democratic and human rights, is much worse than the present status quo.

The possibility of recognition is quite futile due to the numerous UN resolutions deeming the "trnc" UDI as illegal and other UN resolutions which call upon Turkey to withdraw her forces from Cyprus and respect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus.

The only avenue left is accession of the "north" by Turkey. Such an act would come at a very big cost..

AWE wrote:

It is only the Cyprus Problem that can truly keep Turkey out of the EU if all other membership requirement were met.

Excellent point!


Zan wrote:

In the same vein....Why doesn't the "RoC" open its governmental doors and invite the return of the TCs to their rightful place. It is a move that neither can take because it would mean the "RoC" was wrong along and that the TRNC would be null and void if it asked before a settlement was going to be signed......It would have to be a big affair for both sides and would mean a virgin birth all over again. Neither side is willing to do this. A double surrender with no winners....Now that would be something!!!

Whilst you illegally occupy 37% of Cyprus, you by default abandon all provisions of the 1960 constitution.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

Please consider this.
If the peace agreement fails because the GCs vote no and TC’s vote yes. Then TRNC is dissolved and RNC is created, is that possible and will the united nations be able to pass a single resolution against it under today’s climate with the knowledge of what’s gone on in the last 30 years of peace talks compounded by the importance of Turkey to USA in the region.

Consider this:
You are making a very BIG assumption, that our President will agree on a peace plan to begin with, and not STALL the negotiations if things appear too one sided. Christofias has done enough to ensure that your side is the one that will be held accountable should the negotiations fail, and that WILL leave you in no man’s land as far as recognition and legitimacy are concerned.

Why should their agreement be one sided. They are both reasonable men at heart. And they actually want to solve the problem. Where there is a will, there is a way.
I cannot see Talat falling in the hole Denktas occupied. Also I cannot see Christofias do what Papadobullos did either. Time will tell. Not long left now.

If what Halil says is true and they are moving on to property issue. That is very good news.

Do you think that TC demands for a seperate and autonomous FIR is reasonable?

We clearly cannot go back to 1959, I wish we could and I mean that I am not just saying. If I was confident of its success, I would support it. However the wreckers are at the ready and would not let it survive. I am no politician and I don't claim to have a deep understanding of different systems of Government. If it was left up to me. I would take the Swiss system, analyse it, see how we can work it, but one thing to watch out for is that there can be no risk of 1963 happening again. I trust Talat just as I trusted Ozgur when they were ridiculed in the north by the establishment when in opposition as being in the lap of AKEL and spineless. A typical vicious stupid attack by the right wing elements when they have lost the argument. And I trust Talat now. He is a good man and he has the interest of all Cypriots at heart.

The real question is when will you purge that Enosis out of your veins, every time the word Cyprus is mentioned. Cyprus does not equal Greece.

It all depends on the content. Foe example, a Confederacy could be acceptable under an 82/18 split, whereas Cofederacy with a 70/30 split will never be accepted and Christofias knows it as well. Expect some major issues to arise in the not too distant future. My prediction is that there will not be a referenum due to your sides claims.

ENOSIS died many years prior to 74, whereas TAKSIM continued.

[Bananiot]

No doubt the aspiration of enosis brought calamity to Cyprus. This is recognised by persons from all political spectra in the RoC. When people such as Paphitis say that enosis has been dead for some years now, I simply laugh, because ressurection is part of the Greek Orthodox legacy. This has brought on the mistrust which was cultivated even more between 1967 and 1974 when solution was practically agreed, only to be rejected by Makarios and his associates who took an oath to shed their last drop of blood for enosis.

[YFred]

You see I take issue with your figures. TC had 33% of the land. It has nothing to do with politics. The 18% was the population at 1963. These are the unreasonable demands from the GC side. You are being deliberately woolly to soot your side which in my book is unfair. Why should the turkish side accept less than 33% percent of the land, which they had in the past, and people like me did not object in the interst of all of Cyprus.

I disagree with your analysis. This time he who walks away will loose. Neither can afford to walk away. If it reaches a stalemate than its partition. Neither want that I hope, hence logic says that it will not get too stalemate. There will be an agreement. I believe DISY will back the agreement, will AKEL do the same. That is the biggest obstacle to peace.

[YFred]

No doubt the aspiration of enosis brought calamity to Cyprus. This is recognised by persons from all political spectra in the RoC. When people such as Paphitis say that enosis has been dead for some years now, I simply laugh, because ressurection is part of the Greek Orthodox legacy. This has brought on the mistrust which was cultivated even more between 1967 and 1974 when solution was practically agreed, only to be rejected by Makarios and his associates who took an oath to shed their last drop of blood for enosis.

I agree, the real question is does he truly believe it and is in denial or is he trying to manipulate our debate.
If it’s the first, I will continue to debate, if it’s the later then he will receive one of my Goodbye’s and debate closed.

[DT.]

You see I take issue with your figures. TC had 33% of the land. It has nothing to do with politics. The 18% was the population at 1963. These are the unreasonable demands from the GC side. You are being deliberately woolly to soot your side which in my book is unfair. Why should the turkish side accept less than 33% percent of the land, which they had in the past, and people like me did not object in the interst of all of Cyprus.

I disagree with your analysis. This time he who walks away will loose. Neither can afford to walk away. If it reaches a stalemate than its partition. Neither want that I hope, hence logic says that it will not get too stalemate. There will be an agreement. I believe DISY will back the agreement, will AKEL do the same. That is the biggest obstacle to peace.

Here we go!

Can you please show me how you know the TC's had 33% of the land?

[Paphitis]

No doubt the aspiration of enosis brought calamity to Cyprus. This is recognised by persons from all political spectra in the RoC. When people such as Paphitis say that enosis has been dead for some years now, I simply laugh, because ressurection is part of the Greek Orthodox legacy. This has brought on the mistrust which was cultivated even more between 1967 and 1974 when solution was practically agreed, only to be rejected by Makarios and his associates who took an oath to shed their last drop of blood for enosis.

What Greek Orthodox Legacy?

How is the Greek Orthodox Church going to resurrect ENOSIS when the church itself is in desperate need of resurrection (no pun intended)....

[YFred]

I should declare my interest in Bafidies in general. I have an empathy with them, because about 20 a year used to come to Lurucina to work for my father during wheat harvest in the 50's. There is a small chance that his ancestors may have worked for my father.
GR and O and all the rest of the gang, dispute that if you can.

Those were the times.

[DT.]

I should declare my interest in Bafidies in general. I have an empathy with them, because about 20 a year used to come to Lurucina to work for my father during wheat harvest in the 50's. There is a small chance that his ancestors may have worked for my father.
GR and O and all the rest of the gang, dispute that if you can.

Those were the times.

Don't forget to show us where you read that the TC's had 33% of the land pre-74