Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

You have to think back to the chaos of the time. Lack of communication and uncertainty. You can't ascribe the same knowledge we have now to what was available then.

Oracle, that's what foreign diplomats are for. One of our politicians should've been located there permanently and keeping the president up to date with everything... it's not like we were unfamiliar with the UN!

GR, you are the only GC on the forum who actually accepts that GCs themselves might even have contributed to their downfall, and that, boo hoo, it wasn't just the fault of everyone else. The late 50s - early 60s were clearly times when lots of mistakes were made, by the GCs as well as everyone else. As a Brit with an interest in Cyprus I want to understand our role in the Cypriot situation, and to acknowledge our mistakes.......

I often say that lack of education was our primary problem… even today many otherwise “intelligent” Cypriots still cannot see what this Hellenic crap is doing to us. As for the TCs… they’re like half a century behind the GCs even in their mentality!

With regards to your search for understanding the British role in Cyprus, your people did what anyone else would’ve done had they had the same wealth and technology and that is to… dominate! Your people just lived up to their human nature.

[Talisker]

You have to think back to the chaos of the time. Lack of communication and uncertainty. You can't ascribe the same knowledge we have now to what was available then.

Oracle, that's what foreign diplomats are for. One of our politicians should've been located there permanently and keeping the president up to date with everything... it's not like we were unfamiliar with the UN!

GR, you are the only GC on the forum who actually accepts that GCs themselves might even have contributed to their downfall, and that, boo hoo, it wasn't just the fault of everyone else. The late 50s - early 60s were clearly times when lots of mistakes were made, by the GCs as well as everyone else. As a Brit with an interest in Cyprus I want to understand our role in the Cypriot situation, and to acknowledge our mistakes.......

I often say that lack of education was our primary problem… even today many otherwise “intelligent” Cypriots still cannot see what this Hellenic crap is doing to us. As for the TCs… they’re like half a century behind the GCs even in their mentality!

With regards to your search for understanding the British role in Cyprus, your people did what anyone else would’ve done had they had the same wealth and technology and that is to… dominate! Your people just lived up to their human nature.

I'm no historian, so still educating myself on what we did, why we did it, and the subsequent consequences, and of course Cyprus is only one of our old colonies, and each will have their own independence story! But Cyprus does seem to have been one we really messed up, and still a long way to go until it is sorted out........

Gotta go, MOTD is on........

[Paphitis]

You have to think back to the chaos of the time. Lack of communication and uncertainty. You can't ascribe the same knowledge we have now to what was available then.

Oracle, that's what foreign diplomats are for. One of our politicians should've been located there permanently and keeping the president up to date with everything... it's not like we were unfamiliar with the UN!

GR, you are the only GC on the forum who actually accepts that GCs themselves might even have contributed to their downfall, and that, boo hoo, it wasn't just the fault of everyone else. The late 50s - early 60s were clearly times when lots of mistakes were made, by the GCs as well as everyone else. As a Brit with an interest in Cyprus I want to understand our role in the Cypriot situation, and to acknowledge our mistakes.......

No one has ever said that the GCs never made any mistakes. To make mistakes is only human. And yes, whether the Cypriots like to admit to it or not, they are largely responsible for the present partition. This does not excuse the prominent role Britain and the US played in order to bring about the present situation, which was the State Department's most desired scenario. But what you need to understand is that the GCs had every right to push and fight for their self determination, which at that time meant UNION with Greece.

Archbishop Makarios was the political leader of this movement and George Grivas along with his 300 freedom fighters were responsible for the armed struggle against the British.

Britain had absolutely no desire to grant Cyprus any self determination when the armed struggle began in 1955, and even the independence that was granted under the 1959 Zurich Agreement, introduced a complex constitution which has proven itself to be unworkable.

The legacy of the cold war is still visible in Cyprus today. The partition of Cyprus was very much an American conspiracy as the UK stood by and allowed things to unfold. And the reason for all this was the island's strategic importance as a base and intelligence post.

It is an absolute MYTH that Cyprus is divided today purely due to racial hatred or due to intervention as a result of the coup. The division of Cyprus was a plot first developed by the British in the 1950s. The Americans were those that finally achieved the stated goals of this plot.

Since then many documents have been declassified within Britain, the State Department and the CIA files.

The British Foreign Secretary in 1974 did state the following during an interview:

"It was the most frightening moment of my career. We nearly went to war with Turkey. But the Americans stopped us".

He was obviously referring to the fact that Britain was prepared to go to war with Turkey as a Guarantor Power to The Republic of Cyprus. Britain was forced to stand idle and do nothing by the CIA and US State Department. The objective from the very beginning was to partition Cyprus, and this would have occurred even without the pretext of the coup in 1974.

[miltiades]

The British politicians were well aware that the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people aspired for ENOSIS with what they perceived at the time to be their motherland , amongst that majority my self included , with hindsight I see how wrong I and the overwhelming majority were and that our goal should have been an independent Cyprus for all Cypriots. The British NEVER doubted that the Cypriots , more than 80% wanted nothing less that ENOSIS , and actively acknowledged that aspiration of the people when in 1940 huge signs were erected outside British military offices in Cyprus proclaiming " CYPRIOTS , ENLISTING IN THE BRITISH ARMY YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR GREECE AND FREEDOM"

Such signs totally ignored the existence in Cyprus of T/Cs .

30 thousand Cypriots joined the British army, including our ex President the Right Honorable Glafkos Klerides

A few years after the war , in 1954 , the British Colonial Secretary (Minister of State for Colonial affairs ) made his famous speech in the House of Commons during a debate on Cyprus stating that Cyprus is of immense strategic importance to Britain and will NEVER be given independence . Henry Hopkinson , an Eaton educated Conservative MP cared NOT for what the people of Cyprus wanted but for the interests of Great Britain , understandable objective since all world powers predominantly had , and still have , the interests of their nations as a priority over all else.

The rest is history .

[Paphitis]

The British politicians were well aware that the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people aspired for ENOSIS with what they perceived at the time to be their motherland , amongst that majority my self included , with hindsight I see how wrong I and the overwhelming majority were and that our goal should have been an independent Cyprus for all Cypriots. The British NEVER doubted that the Cypriots , more than 80% wanted nothing less that ENOSIS , and actively acknowledged that aspiration of the people when in 1940 huge signs were erected outside British military offices in Cyprus proclaiming " CYPRIOTS , ENLISTING IN THE BRITISH ARMY YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR GREECE AND FREEDOM"

Such signs totally ignored the existence in Cyprus of T/Cs .

30 thousand Cypriots joined the British army, including our ex President the Right Honorable Glafkos Klerides

A few years after the war , in 1954 , the British Colonial Secretary (Minister of State for Colonial affairs ) made his famous speech in the House of Commons during a debate on Cyprus stating that Cyprus is of immense strategic importance to Britain and will NEVER be given independence . Henry Hopkinson , an Eaton educated Conservative MP cared NOT for what the people of Cyprus wanted but for the interests of Great Britain , understandable objective since all world powers predominantly had , and still have , the interests of their nations as a priority over all else.

The rest is history .

The TCs are just a minority in Cyprus.

In Australia we have many minorities, but if the majority suddenly decide that Australia should unify with let's say New Zealand, why should any minority stand in the way?

It is unfortunate the Cypriots have never been allowed to do what they wanted. It is also sad that Cypriots have never really had proper Freedom, just a watered down version of democracy.

[miltiades]

The British politicians were well aware that the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people aspired for ENOSIS with what they perceived at the time to be their motherland , amongst that majority my self included , with hindsight I see how wrong I and the overwhelming majority were and that our goal should have been an independent Cyprus for all Cypriots. The British NEVER doubted that the Cypriots , more than 80% wanted nothing less that ENOSIS , and actively acknowledged that aspiration of the people when in 1940 huge signs were erected outside British military offices in Cyprus proclaiming " CYPRIOTS , ENLISTING IN THE BRITISH ARMY YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR GREECE AND FREEDOM"

Such signs totally ignored the existence in Cyprus of T/Cs .

30 thousand Cypriots joined the British army, including our ex President the Right Honorable Glafkos Klerides

A few years after the war , in 1954 , the British Colonial Secretary (Minister of State for Colonial affairs ) made his famous speech in the House of Commons during a debate on Cyprus stating that Cyprus is of immense strategic importance to Britain and will NEVER be given independence . Henry Hopkinson , an Eaton educated Conservative MP cared NOT for what the people of Cyprus wanted but for the interests of Great Britain , understandable objective since all world powers predominantly had , and still have , the interests of their nations as a priority over all else.

The rest is history .

The TCs are just a minority in Cyprus.

In Australia we have many minorities, but if the majority suddenly decide that Australia should unify with let's say New Zealand, why should any minority stand in the way?

It is unfortunate the Cypriots have never been allowed to do what they wanted. It is also sad that Cypriots have never really had proper Freedom, just a watered down version of democracy.

I can assure you that I , living in the UK , do not for a minute consider my self to be just " a minority " in the UK .
The T/Cs who see themselves as Cypriots are in the majority , those whose consideration of motherland is Turkey then they are not only a minority but foreigners in Cyprus . The same criteria I would apply to any Cypriot who does not see Cyprus as his motherland primarily.
We desperately needed back then an identity having been indoctrinated in that there was only one option available and it was to unite with Greece for which nation there was an abundance of glorifying taking place at walks of life to the detriment of our own nation of Cyprus.
Considering that this little nation has never ruled it self , looking back at what it has achieved and taking into account the immense difficulties it had and still encounters , it is indeed a phenomenal accolade to its resilience , democratic principles , economic success , international political achievements and health and social services that other European nations had to struggle for years to achieve.

It is undeniably a huge advancement for a tiny nation with so much hindrance encountered during the last 48 years that makes us all proud to be Cypriots .

[Paphitis]

The British politicians were well aware that the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people aspired for ENOSIS with what they perceived at the time to be their motherland , amongst that majority my self included , with hindsight I see how wrong I and the overwhelming majority were and that our goal should have been an independent Cyprus for all Cypriots. The British NEVER doubted that the Cypriots , more than 80% wanted nothing less that ENOSIS , and actively acknowledged that aspiration of the people when in 1940 huge signs were erected outside British military offices in Cyprus proclaiming " CYPRIOTS , ENLISTING IN THE BRITISH ARMY YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR GREECE AND FREEDOM"

Such signs totally ignored the existence in Cyprus of T/Cs .

30 thousand Cypriots joined the British army, including our ex President the Right Honorable Glafkos Klerides

A few years after the war , in 1954 , the British Colonial Secretary (Minister of State for Colonial affairs ) made his famous speech in the House of Commons during a debate on Cyprus stating that Cyprus is of immense strategic importance to Britain and will NEVER be given independence . Henry Hopkinson , an Eaton educated Conservative MP cared NOT for what the people of Cyprus wanted but for the interests of Great Britain , understandable objective since all world powers predominantly had , and still have , the interests of their nations as a priority over all else.

The rest is history .

The TCs are just a minority in Cyprus.

In Australia we have many minorities, but if the majority suddenly decide that Australia should unify with let's say New Zealand, why should any minority stand in the way?

It is unfortunate the Cypriots have never been allowed to do what they wanted. It is also sad that Cypriots have never really had proper Freedom, just a watered down version of democracy.

I can assure you that I , living in the UK , do not for a minute consider my self to be just " a minority " in the UK .
The T/Cs who see themselves as Cypriots are in the majority , those whose consideration of motherland is Turkey then they are not only a minority but foreigners in Cyprus . The same criteria I would apply to any Cypriot who does not see Cyprus as his motherland primarily.
We desperately needed back then an identity having been indoctrinated in that there was only one option available and it was to unite with Greece for which nation there was an abundance of glorifying taking place at walks of life to the detriment of our own nation of Cyprus.
Considering that this little nation has never ruled it self , looking back at what it has achieved and taking into account the immense difficulties it had and still encounters , it is indeed a phenomenal accolade to its resilience , democratic principles , economic success , international political achievements and health and social services that other European nations had to struggle for years to achieve.

It is undeniably a huge advancement for a tiny nation with so much hindrance encountered during the last 48 years that makes us all proud to be Cypriots .

You may not be a minority in the UK because you consider yourself a Brit.

If the majority in Britain wished to do away with the crown, I am certain that many Royalists would be dead against this. The Royalists would be a minority, as the majority wish to disband the crown and turn Britain into a Republic. Why should the Royalists prevent the republicans from their wish? Isn't that what democracy is all about?

This is a far fetched scenario, but I am using it to highlight my point.

And please do not fret, as I to do not wish for Cyprus to unify with Greece or anyone else for that matter.

[miltiades]

Of course I consider my self British , I live in the UK and I'm part of the majority . There are so called Britons living here , many born here , who hate our nation and want to destroy our way of life . To those people I say the same as what I say to the foreigners who want to gift Cyprus , or a part of Cyprus , to a foreign country. Get out of the UK , Get out of Cyprus , go back to your perceived motherlands .

[Talisker]

You have to think back to the chaos of the time. Lack of communication and uncertainty. You can't ascribe the same knowledge we have now to what was available then.

Oracle, that's what foreign diplomats are for. One of our politicians should've been located there permanently and keeping the president up to date with everything... it's not like we were unfamiliar with the UN!

GR, you are the only GC on the forum who actually accepts that GCs themselves might even have contributed to their downfall, and that, boo hoo, it wasn't just the fault of everyone else. The late 50s - early 60s were clearly times when lots of mistakes were made, by the GCs as well as everyone else. As a Brit with an interest in Cyprus I want to understand our role in the Cypriot situation, and to acknowledge our mistakes.......

No one has ever said that the GCs never made any mistakes. To make mistakes is only human. And yes, whether the Cypriots like to admit to it or not, they are largely responsible for the present partition. This does not excuse the prominent role Britain and the US played in order to bring about the present situation, which was the State Department's most desired scenario. (1) But what you need to understand is that the GCs had every right to push and fight for their self determination, which at that time meant UNION with Greece.

Archbishop Makarios was the political leader of this movement and George Grivas along with his 300 freedom fighters were responsible for the armed struggle against the British.

Britain had absolutely no desire to grant Cyprus any self determination when the armed struggle began in 1955, and even the independence that was granted under the 1959 Zurich Agreement, introduced a complex constitution which has proven itself to be unworkable.

The legacy of the cold war is still visible in Cyprus today. The partition of Cyprus was very much an American conspiracy as the UK stood by and allowed things to unfold. And the reason for all this was the island's strategic importance as a base and intelligence post.

(2) It is an absolute MYTH that Cyprus is divided today purely due to racial hatred or due to intervention as a result of the coup. (3) The division of Cyprus was a plot first developed by the British in the 1950s. The Americans were those that finally achieved the stated goals of this plot.

Since then many documents have been declassified within Britain, the State Department and the CIA files.

The British Foreign Secretary in 1974 did state the following during an interview:

"It was the most frightening moment of my career. We nearly went to war with Turkey. But the Americans stopped us".

(4) He was obviously referring to the fact that Britain was prepared to go to war with Turkey as a Guarantor Power to The Republic of Cyprus. Britain was forced to stand idle and do nothing by the CIA and US State Department. The objective from the very beginning was to partition Cyprus, and this would have occurred even without the pretext of the coup in 1974.

Hi Paphitis,

Hope you had a good Christmas.

I'm glad there is more than one GC who agrees that GCs themselves contributed, along with others, to the series of events which led to the current situation! I have comments on some of the points you made.

(1) I fail to see how SELF-DETERMINATION = ENOSIS. Surely these are contradictory statements. Essentially you are saying Cypriots (well, the GCs at any rate) decided their future was to hand over decision-making to Athens (voluntary colonialism?).

(2) I agree with this important point, and indeed Lord Winster emphasises this in his speech.

(3) What is the evidence for this? Lord Winster, a former Governor of Cyprus, constantly states that partition is the worst option. I'd suggest it is more likely that the TCs rebelled against the thought of Cypriot enosis with Greece, and suggested to the Guarantor powers, or at least two out of the three, that they would prefer partition. Therefore, it was the GC desire for enosis that brought this to the table (see 1).

(4) I see this slightly differently. Remember Gallipoli? The UK has had its misadventures in Turkey, with horrendous consequences for its own, and other (Australia, NZ), troops. 1950s politicians would still have an eye on the reasonably recent past, including WW1, and the humiliation experienced there. So, yes, I can understand why the UK would not want to go to war with Turkey - it would have been an unwinnable war without resorting to nuclear weaponry. So, for once, our Foreign Secretary realised the potential consequences of such an action, and indicated his relief (from the UK point of view) that the US had stopped this from happening. So, the US were heavily influencing the outcome in 1974, to the point of stopping the UK militarily intervening in 1974, which morally it could be argued as a Guarantor Power they should have done, but which would have been disastrous for the UK itself. If the UK was taken out of the equation by US 'advice', then the key players were the other two Guarantor Powers - Greece and Turkey. One took action, the other didn't.

Regards,
Talisker

[Talisker]

The British politicians were well aware that the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people aspired for ENOSIS with what they perceived at the time to be their motherland , amongst that majority my self included , with hindsight I see how wrong I and the overwhelming majority were and that our goal should have been an independent Cyprus for all Cypriots. The British NEVER doubted that the Cypriots , more than 80% wanted nothing less that ENOSIS , and actively acknowledged that aspiration of the people when in 1940 huge signs were erected outside British military offices in Cyprus proclaiming " CYPRIOTS , ENLISTING IN THE BRITISH ARMY YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR GREECE AND FREEDOM"

Such signs totally ignored the existence in Cyprus of T/Cs .

30 thousand Cypriots joined the British army, including our ex President the Right Honorable Glafkos Klerides

A few years after the war , in 1954 , the British Colonial Secretary (Minister of State for Colonial affairs ) made his famous speech in the House of Commons during a debate on Cyprus stating that Cyprus is of immense strategic importance to Britain and will NEVER be given independence . Henry Hopkinson , an Eaton educated Conservative MP cared NOT for what the people of Cyprus wanted but for the interests of Great Britain , understandable objective since all world powers predominantly had , and still have , the interests of their nations as a priority over all else.

The rest is history .

The TCs are just a minority in Cyprus.

In Australia we have many minorities, but if the majority suddenly decide that Australia should unify with let's say New Zealand, why should any minority stand in the way?

It is unfortunate the Cypriots have never been allowed to do what they wanted. It is also sad that Cypriots have never really had proper Freedom, just a watered down version of democracy.

No, I think the unfortunate thing is that when it was the time to make the correct strategic decisions for their own future they made the wrong decisions - the worst being the decision to seek enosis with Greece. The question has to be asked - did Cypriots actually WANT 'proper Freedom' if they were hellbent on enosis?