Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Talat Pasha Mehmet Ali strikes again!

A process that would turn Cyprus into a unitary state by claiming that there was "one nation" in the island could not be approved by the Turkish party, Talat was quoted by Anatolian Agency as saying at a gathering in the Turkish Cypriot province of Gazimagusa.

"If there was one nation in Cyprus, there would not be any necessity for the political equality of two communities and for a federation. Some suggestions resemble such an approach, which disturbs us," Talat said.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/worl ... sp?gid=244

And I am sure the above views are shared by the Turkish establishment too! And I hope the Kurds of Turkey are also listening and taking note of these Turkish “ideas,” and prepare their next line of arguments for a split up of Turkish into a “two states and two people” federation.

Of course, Germany is not one nation either, because it is a federation made up of many states, according to Talat’s line of “thought.” The US is not one nation too, but at least 50 nations into a 50 state federation.

Lastly, I suppose he also means that Cyprus, based on the 1960 constitution, was one nation /people, since it was a Unitary state, and now that it has magically become two nations and two peoples, it has to become a federation! Turkey, for being made up of at least two nations -Turks and Kurds, (the others have either been exterminated or expelled -Armenians, Greeks, etc,) is not a unitary state but a federation.

Either the man is nuts, or his his community members are nuts and he takes them for a ride! As we say in Greek “i stravos ein’ o gialos, i strava armenizoume!”

Murataga, where are you? Are you listening which community’s leader is not telling the truth to his followers?

[Oracle]

Political expediency ....

(Enough said )

[Kikapu]

I think Talat slowly but surely wants to move back to the 1960 Unitary state and hell with the Federation and Confederation, because the cost is getting bigger and bigger for these things to happen, whereas, in a 1960 Unitary state, he will become Vice President right away, Turkey keeps her guarantor rights plus 650 troops, the TC's get 30% of government jobs, no taxes, and a veto power vote, and be in the EU and a lot more.!

Is just like what happens when you play a Country & Western song backwards. You get your lover back, your dog back, your car back, your home back, .............back,.................back, ..................back, ..............back!!

[Viewpoint]

I think Talat slowly but surely wants to move back to the 1960 Unitary state and hell with the Federation and Confederation, because the cost is getting bigger and bigger for these things to happen, whereas, in a 1960 Unitary state, he will become Vice President right away, Turkey keeps her guarantor rights plus 650 troops, the TC's get 30% of government jobs, no taxes, and a veto power vote, and be in the EU and a lot more.!

Is just like what happens when you play a Country & Western song backwards. You get your lover back, your dog back, your car back, your home back, .............back,.................back, ..................back, ..............back!!

How long before the GCs produce Akritas 2? and try to get the EU to back them and therefore force it upon the TCs.

[Kikapu]

I think Talat slowly but surely wants to move back to the 1960 Unitary state and hell with the Federation and Confederation, because the cost is getting bigger and bigger for these things to happen, whereas, in a 1960 Unitary state, he will become Vice President right away, Turkey keeps her guarantor rights plus 650 troops, the TC's get 30% of government jobs, no taxes, and a veto power vote, and be in the EU and a lot more.!

Is just like what happens when you play a Country & Western song backwards. You get your lover back, your dog back, your car back, your home back, .............back,.................back, ..................back, ..............back!!

How long before the GCs produce Akritas 2? and try to get the EU to back them and therefore force it upon the TCs.

You better ask Talat, because he has backtrack from wanting a Confederation ( along with Soyer) to backtracking in wanting a Federation, so therefore, it only leaves a Unitary State with the GC's. If he wants partition, it is going to be very very very expensive for the TC's and Turkey in the long run, so I don't think that's where his head is.

[repulsewarrior]

One State is good, if there are as well (at least) two National Assemblies; (i.e. Bicommunal)

what is left is to define Bizonal, which must end the 'fait accompli' of this island being torn in two. thus
two geographic parts made up of components. enclaves; a dirty word but they are a part of our History,
and we would do well to consider their use in a positive manner if we are to end the tyranny
they can cause otherwise.

[Murataga]

Talat Pasha Mehmet Ali strikes again!

A process that would turn Cyprus into a unitary state by claiming that there was "one nation" in the island could not be approved by the Turkish party, Talat was quoted by Anatolian Agency as saying at a gathering in the Turkish Cypriot province of Gazimagusa.

"If there was one nation in Cyprus, there would not be any necessity for the political equality of two communities and for a federation. Some suggestions resemble such an approach, which disturbs us," Talat said.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/worl ... sp?gid=244

And I am sure the above views are shared by the Turkish establishment too! And I hope the Kurds of Turkey are also listening and taking note of these Turkish “ideas,” and prepare their next line of arguments for a split up of Turkish into a “two states and two people” federation.

Of course, Germany is not one nation either, because it is a federation made up of many states, according to Talat’s line of “thought.” The US is not one nation too, but at least 50 nations into a 50 state federation.

Lastly, I suppose he also means that Cyprus, based on the 1960 constitution, was one nation /people, since it was a Unitary state, and now that it has magically become two nations and two peoples, it has to become a federation! Turkey, for being made up of at least two nations -Turks and Kurds, (the others have either been exterminated or expelled -Armenians, Greeks, etc,) is not a unitary state but a federation.

Either the man is nuts, or his his community members are nuts and he takes them for a ride! As we say in Greek “i stravos ein’ o gialos, i strava armenizoume!”

Murataga, where are you? Are you listening which community’s leader is not telling the truth to his followers?

I would be delighted to engage into a long discussion on why and how the historical and social premise for the legal structuring of governments was and should be different in Cyprus in comparison to countries like Turkey, Greece, Germany or the U.S. But first, you have to let me in on your secret as to how you manage to spend so much time writing on this forum and simultaneously lead a responsible life in the real world. Until than, I will try to briefly address your dilemma in regards to Cyprus having a unitary state, and leave it at that for now…

In a unitary state, sub-governmental units and governmental positions can be created or abolished, and have their powers varied, by the central government. A unitary state can broaden and narrow the functions of sub-governmental institutions or governmental positions without formal agreement from the affected bodies (e.g. Greece`s curtailment of the President`s duties in 1986). In federal systems, by contrast, assemblies in those states composing the federation have a constitutional existence and a set of constitutional functions which cannot be unilaterally changed by the central government.

The 1960 RoC was not a federated state (mainly because it did not have separate zones for sub-governmental bodies - the communities in this case), but it was definitely NOT a unitary state either. The government had no right to curtail/abolish any of the (a) rights given to (b) positions/institutions established by/for/of the TC community (e.g. removal of the veto rights of the TC vice-president) nor did it have the constitutional authority to execute the responsibilities of the communal assemblies towards the associated community (i.e. law enforcement, judiciary, education, municipality taks, religious affairs and etc.). The GC wing of the government attempted to alter this funadamental principle of the constitution and ultimately prevented the TC MPs from attending the government for their refusal to accept the alterations imposed by the GC wing regarding TC rights. What the GC wing had done was illegal by any stretch of the RoC constitution. Following is an excerpt from the U.N. records that I posted earlier which describes this unfortunate but factual criminal violation – something for which no GC has ever been legally charged let alone indicted.


From UN Doc. S/6569, Paras. 7-10

7. The Turkish Cypriot members requested UNIFCYP to extend its good offices to enable them to receive information about time of meeting of the House, and to make arrangements for the Turkish Cypriot members to attend such meetings in safety. They specified that, if officially invited and notified about matters to be concerned, as required by the constitution, they would be prepared to attendParliament on all questions, not only the two bills now pending.

8. The special Representative conveyed this position to Mr. Clerides, the President of the House of Representatives, who stated that the Turkish Cypriot members could attend provided agreement were reached beforehand on the following points:

(a) the Turkish Cypriot members would resume permanently rather than only for the purpose of the present debate;

(b) The Turkish Cypriot members would accept that the laws enacted by the House of Representatives would be applied to the whole of Cyprus, including the Turkish areas, by the Government using the normal authorized administrative organs;

(c) While the Greek Cypriot members would regard attendance at the House by the Turkish Cypriot members as implying recognition by them of the present Cyprus Government, the Turkish Cypriot members would not be called upon to make a statement to that effect, and the Greek Cypriots would likewise refrain from making any such statements on the record of the House;

(d) It must be understood that the provision in Article article 78 of the constitution concerning separate majorities had been abolished and every member of the House would have one vote for all decisions.

9. Mr. Clerides informed UNIFCYP that he was prepared to discuss the situation during the afternoon of 22 July with a group of Turkish Cypriot members of the House. He subsequently indicated, however, that he would not receive this delegation if they came escorted by UIFCYP soldiers, though he would not object to their being brought to his office in an UNIFCYP automobile driven by an UNIFCYP employee. Finally, Mr. Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless to supply them copies of the pending bills.

10. The Special Representative transmitted the position of the President of the House to Vice-President Kuchuk and to certain Turkish Cypriot members of the House. The Turkish Cypriots considered that the conditions laid down by Mr. Clerides would eliminate the constitutional rights of the Turkish Cypriot members and of their community. They emphasized in particular that, under the constitution, only the President and Vice-President jointly challenge the constitutionality of a law (article 140). In the case of legislation designed contrary to the interests of his community, the Vice-President was entitled to institute action (article 141). However, since the government had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was inapplicable in practice.

11. During the afternoon, the Turkish Cypriot members visited the President of the House, who reiterated the substance of the points set forth in paragraph 8 above. He made it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House. Mr. Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal standing any more in the House.

[Nikitas]

Murataga,

You make a valid point, but I cannot see how it relates to the quote from Talat posted by Kifeas.

Having accepted the premise of BBF since 1977 then all references to separate nations etc seem to be contradictory to the agreement. Denktash had understood this asepct and agreed in writing that there would be no rights of separate self determination by the two communities. It is surprising that Talat cannot see what was obvious to Denktash.

A unitary state is in no way inconsistent with a Federation unless the intention is to undermine the concept of Federation via the assertion of separateness. Talat is confusing people with his statements.

[Piratis]

I would be delighted to engage into a long discussion on why and how the historical and social premise for the legal structuring of governments was and should be different in Cyprus in comparison to countries like Turkey, Greece, Germany or the U.S.

I have already explained this several times already.

The Turkish(Muslim) minority in Cyprus is no different than than the Turkish minorities in Greece, Bulgaria and other territories that used to be under the Ottoman empire. All of these Turkish minorities were created during the Ottoman era, by forced transfers of populations and mainly by enticing people to become Muslims in order to enjoy several privileges, such as lower taxation.

In fact the Turkish minority in Bulgaira (and other territories) was created some centuries before the Turkish minority in Cyprus, since Cyprus was one of the last territories to fall under Ottoman rule.

The same can also be said about minorities formed by other colonialists, like the British, Spanish or French in Africa, South America and Asia.

Any unfair privileges that the TCs were given in the 1960 constitution which was made by foreigners and forced on the Cypriot people is not because the Turkish minority in Cyprus is "special" or "super-human" compared to any other minority in any other country.

The reason that the British gave to the Turkish minority all those privileges on our expense is that the Turkish minority in Cyprus helped them to oppress the revolution of the Cypriot people and keep Cyprus under their control.

In 1955 the Cypriot people revolted against the British Colonialists, demanding our freedom and self-determination as it happened with most other Greek territories and islands. The struggle was directed exclusively against the British colonialists, and not against the Turks.

Unfortunately in 1958, just 80 years after the Ottoman rule of Cyprus had ended, the Turkish minority of Cyprus collaborated with the British and attacked the native Cypriots, starting the inter-communal conflict.

They did this because the British had promised to them that if they help them to defeat the Cypriot revolution then they would grand to them privileges on the expense of the rest of the Cypriots. This is the classic "divide and rule" recipe, where a powerful foreigner promises privileges to a minority on the expense of the majority as a way to turn people against each other. (instead of accepting that the destiny of Cyprus should be decided peacefully in a democratic referendum, as we had asked several times)

What the Turks find hard to swallow today is that we, the Cypriot people, will never capitulate to them, and that our struggle will go on until in Cyprus we gain our freedom, self-determination, democracy and human rights, without the racist discriminations and the apartheid that they want to impose on us by force.

It is time for the TC minority to accept to be equal Cypriot citizens, and not some separate special elite with Ottoman Style privileges on the expense of every other Cypriot. We are not living in the middle ages anymore. We are an EU country and we demand freedom for our homeland, democracy and human rights in the way they are applied in every other EU country.

[Viewpoint]

I think Talat slowly but surely wants to move back to the 1960 Unitary state and hell with the Federation and Confederation, because the cost is getting bigger and bigger for these things to happen, whereas, in a 1960 Unitary state, he will become Vice President right away, Turkey keeps her guarantor rights plus 650 troops, the TC's get 30% of government jobs, no taxes, and a veto power vote, and be in the EU and a lot more.!

Is just like what happens when you play a Country & Western song backwards. You get your lover back, your dog back, your car back, your home back, .............back,.................back, ..................back, ..............back!!

How long before the GCs produce Akritas 2? and try to get the EU to back them and therefore force it upon the TCs.

You better ask Talat, because he has backtrack from wanting a Confederation ( along with Soyer) to backtracking in wanting a Federation, so therefore, it only leaves a Unitary State with the GC's. If he wants partition, it is going to be very very very expensive for the TC's and Turkey in the long run, so I don't think that's where his head is.

You have it all wrong yet again, thats how well you know the TC stance. Read todays Kibris and find out why President Talat does not want a unitary state.