Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Sorry Tim, I am far from being at the point of cheering for such a movement.

Would you also be so kind to have a look at the following (regressive)websites and translate (at least) the headings ?

http://www.laos.gr/

http://www.e-grammes.gr/

Now, which are dominant in Greece ?

For Pete's sake, I am simply glad to see that some people are capable of thinking out of the box and challenging preconceived ideas, just as I am glad that the Turkish Cypriot community has its Şener Levent. Merry Christmas to everybody.

Sorry Tim, but the above views of this so-called Antinationalist Movement idiot are by no means any parallel to those of Sener Levent. No comparison at all! Although Sener is fighting against the nationalist regime of his community, by no means does he adopt the nationalist theories and positions of the Greek cypriot side, unlike the above idiot "Greek" who basically adopts the views of Denktash, the Turkish FM and ...Harry Gibons. Please, know what you are talking about! Sener Levent never adopted and propagandized the views of Grivas, Sampson or any other GC nationalist! Not at all!

[Talisker]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Interesting to read this Tim, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Do you know if there are there equivalent groups in Turkey providing an anti-establishment view of events in those, and subsequent, troubled years?

The only thing that I have ever come across is a document from the Turkish Communist Party analysing the situation in Cyprus ,which is truly iconoclastic and also breaches article 305 of the Turkish Penal Code under which it is an offence to even speak of the occupation of Cyprus. The whole document (in Turkish) is here:

http://www.t-k-p.org/arsiv/kibris.htm

Here is a quote from this document, with translation:

Etnik temizliğin ikinci aşaması 1974 yılında Türkiye’nin Kuzey Kıbrıs’ı işgali ile yaşandı. Çıkartma ile başlayan 20 Temmuz ‘Barış’ Harekatı ile onu izleyen 14 Ağustos 2. ‘Barış’ Harekatı etnik temizlik planını uygulamaya koydu. İşgal ordusu, Kuzeyde yaşan yaklaşık 200,000 Rum’u şiddet yoluyla Güneye sürdü ve bugünkü sınırı belirledi. Ateşkesin ardından yapılan nüfus değişimi anlaşmalarıyla Güneyde kalan 30,000 dolayındaki Kıbrıslı Türkün Kuzeye geçişi sağlandı. Kan akıtılarak sağlanan etnik temizlik ve önceden ayrıntılarına kadar planlanmış sınırın zor yoluyla çekilmesi Kıbrıs halklarını birbirinden ayırdı.

TRANSLATION

The second phase of ethnic cleansing was experienced with Turkey's occupation of North Cyprus in 1974. The 20 July 'Peace' Operation that started with the landing, and the 14 August 2nd 'Peace' Operation that followed it set about implementing the ethnic cleansing plan. The occupation army violently drove some 200,000 Greek Cypriots living in the North to the South and established today's border. In the exchange of populations that followed the ceasefire, arrangements were made for some 30,000 Turkish Cypriots remaining in the South to move to the North. By means of ethnic cleansing achieved through bloodshed and the forcible establishment of a border that was previously planned to the minutest detail, the Cypriot peoples were separated from one another.

Thanks Tim, I'm surprised this exists! I don't know enough about Turkish politics to understand whether this is a document that would be widely read and understood. Any idea?

[Bananiot]

I know of another idiot who adopted the views of Denktash, however, this is not the issue here. I think what Tim is trying to tell us is that there is still hope since there are people who can make a rational evaluation of the events of the past and what the nationalist minotaur did to us.

Of course, in order to make a rational evaluation one needs to be clear as to exactly what happened and why. In a different thread, Nikitas basically says that we started killing each other because we got bored. Piratis, on the other hand likes to take into account all the rounds, as though this is a boxing match the outcome of which needs to be decided.

In reality, it is much simpler. The latest round, which happened in our lifetime, started because of our burning ambition to unite Cyprus with Greece. Till then, Turkey was not even a factor in the Cypriot equation. I have said before that it was our right to pursue this but once we established the strong objection by the Turkish Cypriot community to our stated aim, we should have revised it in order to accommodate the future of the Turkish Cypriot community. Our nationalist lust prevented us from doing this and any voices to the contrary were quickly silenced by the great patriots.

Our bad luck was that Turkish nationalism proved superior to ours, but we should have realised this before committing the grave mistakes that resulted in the undoing of our country as we knew it.

[Kifeas]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Interesting to read this Tim, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Do you know if there are there equivalent groups in Turkey providing an anti-establishment view of events in those, and subsequent, troubled years?

The only thing that I have ever come across is a document from the Turkish Communist Party analysing the situation in Cyprus ,which is truly iconoclastic and also breaches article 305 of the Turkish Penal Code under which it is an offence to even speak of the occupation of Cyprus. The whole document (in Turkish) is here:

http://www.t-k-p.org/arsiv/kibris.htm

Here is a quote from this document, with translation:

Etnik temizliğin ikinci aşaması 1974 yılında Türkiye’nin Kuzey Kıbrıs’ı işgali ile yaşandı. Çıkartma ile başlayan 20 Temmuz ‘Barış’ Harekatı ile onu izleyen 14 Ağustos 2. ‘Barış’ Harekatı etnik temizlik planını uygulamaya koydu. İşgal ordusu, Kuzeyde yaşan yaklaşık 200,000 Rum’u şiddet yoluyla Güneye sürdü ve bugünkü sınırı belirledi. Ateşkesin ardından yapılan nüfus değişimi anlaşmalarıyla Güneyde kalan 30,000 dolayındaki Kıbrıslı Türkün Kuzeye geçişi sağlandı. Kan akıtılarak sağlanan etnik temizlik ve önceden ayrıntılarına kadar planlanmış sınırın zor yoluyla çekilmesi Kıbrıs halklarını birbirinden ayırdı.

TRANSLATION

The second phase of ethnic cleansing was experienced with Turkey's occupation of North Cyprus in 1974. The 20 July 'Peace' Operation that started with the landing, and the 14 August 2nd 'Peace' Operation that followed it set about implementing the ethnic cleansing plan. The occupation army violently drove some 200,000 Greek Cypriots living in the North to the South and established today's border. In the exchange of populations that followed the ceasefire, arrangements were made for some 30,000 Turkish Cypriots remaining in the South to move to the North. By means of ethnic cleansing achieved through bloodshed and the forcible establishment of a border that was previously planned to the minutest detail, the Cypriot peoples were separated from one another.

Thanks Tim, I'm surprised this exists! I don't know enough about Turkish politics to understand whether this is a document that would be widely read and understood. Any idea?

No Talisker, these are completely unacceptable ideas and views for the mainstream media and public opinion in Turkey. The Turkish Communist party was outlawed long time ago in Turkey, and it essentially ceased to exist any longer. No wonder!

[Tim Drayton]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Interesting to read this Tim, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Do you know if there are there equivalent groups in Turkey providing an anti-establishment view of events in those, and subsequent, troubled years?

The only thing that I have ever come across is a document from the Turkish Communist Party analysing the situation in Cyprus ,which is truly iconoclastic and also breaches article 305 of the Turkish Penal Code under which it is an offence to even speak of the occupation of Cyprus. The whole document (in Turkish) is here:

http://www.t-k-p.org/arsiv/kibris.htm

Here is a quote from this document, with translation:

Etnik temizliğin ikinci aşaması 1974 yılında Türkiye’nin Kuzey Kıbrıs’ı işgali ile yaşandı. Çıkartma ile başlayan 20 Temmuz ‘Barış’ Harekatı ile onu izleyen 14 Ağustos 2. ‘Barış’ Harekatı etnik temizlik planını uygulamaya koydu. İşgal ordusu, Kuzeyde yaşan yaklaşık 200,000 Rum’u şiddet yoluyla Güneye sürdü ve bugünkü sınırı belirledi. Ateşkesin ardından yapılan nüfus değişimi anlaşmalarıyla Güneyde kalan 30,000 dolayındaki Kıbrıslı Türkün Kuzeye geçişi sağlandı. Kan akıtılarak sağlanan etnik temizlik ve önceden ayrıntılarına kadar planlanmış sınırın zor yoluyla çekilmesi Kıbrıs halklarını birbirinden ayırdı.

TRANSLATION

The second phase of ethnic cleansing was experienced with Turkey's occupation of North Cyprus in 1974. The 20 July 'Peace' Operation that started with the landing, and the 14 August 2nd 'Peace' Operation that followed it set about implementing the ethnic cleansing plan. The occupation army violently drove some 200,000 Greek Cypriots living in the North to the South and established today's border. In the exchange of populations that followed the ceasefire, arrangements were made for some 30,000 Turkish Cypriots remaining in the South to move to the North. By means of ethnic cleansing achieved through bloodshed and the forcible establishment of a border that was previously planned to the minutest detail, the Cypriot peoples were separated from one another.

Thanks Tim, I'm surprised this exists! I don't know enough about Turkish politics to understand whether this is a document that would be widely read and understood. Any idea?

No Talisker, these are completely unacceptable ideas and views for the mainstream media and public opinion in Turkey. The Turkish Communist party was outlawed long time ago in Turkey, and it essentially ceased to exist any longer. No wonder!

Kifeas, hate to have to contradict you, but the party known as the Türkiye Komünist Partisi was founded in 2001 and is still in existence. One of the consequences of the EU democratic reform process is that a communist party may once again legally exist in Turkey. The document I have referred to contains, as far as I know, the party's up-to-date Cyprus policy.

The party contested the last two general elections in Turkey, with the following results:

2007 General Election - 80,092 votes (0.23% of the total)
2002 General Election - 50.496 votes (0.19% of the total)

Apart from that, yes, one would have to be brave indeed to state such ideas in public in Turkey.

[Get Real!]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Selected bits with comments…

“But what the young people of Greece have no idea of is that Turkish Cypriots were murdered by the parastatal groups run by Sampson, Yeorgadzis, and Lyssaridis between 1963 and 1967.”

Well what do you know… Tasos Papadopoulos hasn’t made the killer’s list! I guess its back to the old drawing board for so many TC forumers who haven’t figured out Tasos’ age group yet…

“an extract from a speech by Archbishop Makarios in the village of Panayia is particularly telling. It is quoted by Rustem and Brother, according to whom, on 4 September 1962, Makarios said: Until this small Turkish community, forming a part of the Turkish race, which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism, is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA can never be considered as terminated.”

Expelled??? Is that it? What the hell happened to the exterminations and genocide?

"Fourteen months later, on 30 November 1963, Makarios submitted his famous thirteen-point amendment of the Constitution, in direct contravention, as he himself publicly admitted, of the Geneva Convention (2, p. 56). The Geneva Convention ruled out any unilateral change to the Cypriot Constitution, as also any partition of the island or unification with Greece. It should be borne in mind that even today the Republic of Cyprus derives its legitimacy from the Geneva Convention."

The Geneva Conventions revolve around international armed conflicts and chiefly regarding the sick & wounded, treatment of prisoners, safety of civilians, etc, in time of war, so what’s the RoC in 1960 got to do with them?

"That Makarios had a premeditated plan to exterminate the Turks is also indirectly confirmed by the Communist Party of Cyprus,"

I can “confirm” that you’ve got a big nose but without your picture I can’t prove it… where’s that plan? Btw, I thought you said Makarios planned to “expel” them?


Bloody potato growers...

[bigOz]

I know of another idiot who adopted the views of Denktash, however, this is not the issue here. I think what Tim is trying to tell us is that there is still hope since there are people who can make a rational evaluation of the events of the past and what the nationalist minotaur did to us.

Of course, in order to make a rational evaluation one needs to be clear as to exactly what happened and why. In a different thread, Nikitas basically says that we started killing each other because we got bored. Piratis, on the other hand likes to take into account all the rounds, as though this is a boxing match the outcome of which needs to be decided.

In reality, it is much simpler. The latest round, which happened in our lifetime, started because of our burning ambition to unite Cyprus with Greece. Till then, Turkey was not even a factor in the Cypriot equation. I have said before that it was our right to pursue this but once we established the strong objection by the Turkish Cypriot community to our stated aim, we should have revised it in order to accommodate the future of the Turkish Cypriot community. Our nationalist lust prevented us from doing this and any voices to the contrary were quickly silenced by the great patriots.

Our bad luck was that Turkish nationalism proved superior to ours, but we should have realised this before committing the grave mistakes that resulted in the undoing of our country as we knew it.

You have my full respect B. - What you have written should effectively end this topic and stop all the nonsense that is being talked about. I could not have summed up the whole (pro -1960) Cyprus problem any better. I wish people would admit to the truth and stop chatting rubbish, then WE may all live in peace - together AS ONE NATION!

[Kifeas]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Interesting to read this Tim, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Do you know if there are there equivalent groups in Turkey providing an anti-establishment view of events in those, and subsequent, troubled years?

The only thing that I have ever come across is a document from the Turkish Communist Party analysing the situation in Cyprus ,which is truly iconoclastic and also breaches article 305 of the Turkish Penal Code under which it is an offence to even speak of the occupation of Cyprus. The whole document (in Turkish) is here:

http://www.t-k-p.org/arsiv/kibris.htm

Here is a quote from this document, with translation:

Etnik temizliğin ikinci aşaması 1974 yılında Türkiye’nin Kuzey Kıbrıs’ı işgali ile yaşandı. Çıkartma ile başlayan 20 Temmuz ‘Barış’ Harekatı ile onu izleyen 14 Ağustos 2. ‘Barış’ Harekatı etnik temizlik planını uygulamaya koydu. İşgal ordusu, Kuzeyde yaşan yaklaşık 200,000 Rum’u şiddet yoluyla Güneye sürdü ve bugünkü sınırı belirledi. Ateşkesin ardından yapılan nüfus değişimi anlaşmalarıyla Güneyde kalan 30,000 dolayındaki Kıbrıslı Türkün Kuzeye geçişi sağlandı. Kan akıtılarak sağlanan etnik temizlik ve önceden ayrıntılarına kadar planlanmış sınırın zor yoluyla çekilmesi Kıbrıs halklarını birbirinden ayırdı.

TRANSLATION

The second phase of ethnic cleansing was experienced with Turkey's occupation of North Cyprus in 1974. The 20 July 'Peace' Operation that started with the landing, and the 14 August 2nd 'Peace' Operation that followed it set about implementing the ethnic cleansing plan. The occupation army violently drove some 200,000 Greek Cypriots living in the North to the South and established today's border. In the exchange of populations that followed the ceasefire, arrangements were made for some 30,000 Turkish Cypriots remaining in the South to move to the North. By means of ethnic cleansing achieved through bloodshed and the forcible establishment of a border that was previously planned to the minutest detail, the Cypriot peoples were separated from one another.

Thanks Tim, I'm surprised this exists! I don't know enough about Turkish politics to understand whether this is a document that would be widely read and understood. Any idea?

No Talisker, these are completely unacceptable ideas and views for the mainstream media and public opinion in Turkey. The Turkish Communist party was outlawed long time ago in Turkey, and it essentially ceased to exist any longer. No wonder!

Kifeas, hate to have to contradict you, but the party known as the Türkiye Komünist Partisi was founded in 2001 and is still in existence. One of the consequences of the EU democratic reform process is that a communist party may once again legally exist in Turkey. The document I have referred to contains, as far as I know, the party's up-to-date Cyprus policy.

The party contested the last two general elections in Turkey, with the following results:

2007 General Election - 80,092 votes (0.23% of the total)
2002 General Election - 50.496 votes (0.19% of the total)

Apart from that, yes, one would have to be brave indeed to state such ideas in public in Turkey.

Well, I had no idea a communist party was formed again in Turkey. I was with the impression that it was the old leftwing sort communist party that was outlawed in the 1970's.

[Tim Drayton]

I found this analysis of the Cyprus problem at the website of a Greek organisation known as ΑΝΤΙΕΘΝΙΚΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΙΝΗΣΗ (Antinationalist Movement). It is good to see that there are progressive Greeks who are prepared to challenge received paradigms.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik ... oodyco.doc

Interesting to read this Tim, and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Do you know if there are there equivalent groups in Turkey providing an anti-establishment view of events in those, and subsequent, troubled years?

The only thing that I have ever come across is a document from the Turkish Communist Party analysing the situation in Cyprus ,which is truly iconoclastic and also breaches article 305 of the Turkish Penal Code under which it is an offence to even speak of the occupation of Cyprus. The whole document (in Turkish) is here:

http://www.t-k-p.org/arsiv/kibris.htm

Here is a quote from this document, with translation:

Etnik temizliğin ikinci aşaması 1974 yılında Türkiye’nin Kuzey Kıbrıs’ı işgali ile yaşandı. Çıkartma ile başlayan 20 Temmuz ‘Barış’ Harekatı ile onu izleyen 14 Ağustos 2. ‘Barış’ Harekatı etnik temizlik planını uygulamaya koydu. İşgal ordusu, Kuzeyde yaşan yaklaşık 200,000 Rum’u şiddet yoluyla Güneye sürdü ve bugünkü sınırı belirledi. Ateşkesin ardından yapılan nüfus değişimi anlaşmalarıyla Güneyde kalan 30,000 dolayındaki Kıbrıslı Türkün Kuzeye geçişi sağlandı. Kan akıtılarak sağlanan etnik temizlik ve önceden ayrıntılarına kadar planlanmış sınırın zor yoluyla çekilmesi Kıbrıs halklarını birbirinden ayırdı.

TRANSLATION

The second phase of ethnic cleansing was experienced with Turkey's occupation of North Cyprus in 1974. The 20 July 'Peace' Operation that started with the landing, and the 14 August 2nd 'Peace' Operation that followed it set about implementing the ethnic cleansing plan. The occupation army violently drove some 200,000 Greek Cypriots living in the North to the South and established today's border. In the exchange of populations that followed the ceasefire, arrangements were made for some 30,000 Turkish Cypriots remaining in the South to move to the North. By means of ethnic cleansing achieved through bloodshed and the forcible establishment of a border that was previously planned to the minutest detail, the Cypriot peoples were separated from one another.

Thanks Tim, I'm surprised this exists! I don't know enough about Turkish politics to understand whether this is a document that would be widely read and understood. Any idea?

No Talisker, these are completely unacceptable ideas and views for the mainstream media and public opinion in Turkey. The Turkish Communist party was outlawed long time ago in Turkey, and it essentially ceased to exist any longer. No wonder!

Kifeas, hate to have to contradict you, but the party known as the Türkiye Komünist Partisi was founded in 2001 and is still in existence. One of the consequences of the EU democratic reform process is that a communist party may once again legally exist in Turkey. The document I have referred to contains, as far as I know, the party's up-to-date Cyprus policy.

The party contested the last two general elections in Turkey, with the following results:

2007 General Election - 80,092 votes (0.23% of the total)
2002 General Election - 50.496 votes (0.19% of the total)

Apart from that, yes, one would have to be brave indeed to state such ideas in public in Turkey.

Well, I had no idea a communist party was formed again in Turkey. I was with the impression that it was the old leftwing sort communist party that was outlawed in the 1970's.

Last time I was in Turkey (2003) I was astonished when getting off a ferry on the Asian side of Istanbul to see youths selling revolutionary marxist papers and magazines in the street. This would have been unimaginable a few years earlier.

[Oracle]

Last time I was in Turkey (2003) I was astonished when getting off a ferry on the Asian side of Istanbul to see youths selling revolutionary marxist papers and magazines in the street. This would have been unimaginable a few years earlier.

I get the impression there was a half-hearted attempt at adopting a more European face some years back, around this period you mention. Then it's as if the effort was too much, and they realised they could not make the bold leap to leave their past behind, and make effective, long-lasting and real changes.

The Turkey of today with Court Rulings for overthrowing the Government, the wearing or not of scarves, the banning of Freedom of Expression on the Internet etc.; just seems overwhelmed with the weight of its Islamic connections, and has retreated into a dark age, where it may be more at home.