Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

to eraly to talk of flag. Read problems and see very litle hope for reunificaton.

UN special envoy warns 2009 last chance for peace in Cyprus

The article you posted is junk from the Hurriet… (ALWAYS INCLUDE YOUR LINK)

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/worl ... sp?gid=244

When it comes to the CyProb, never-ever read Turkish or Turkish Cypriot newspaper articles!

All statements supposedly made by Downer or some “UN report” in this article are bogus.

Downer would NEVER make a statement like… “The UN is tired of the Cyprus problem” or refer to the RoC as “the Greeks”.

Also, doing a search for the alleged statements should return just the one manufactured hit.

The entire article is not worth the paper it was written on.

Unfortunately the truth is that Downer did say the things Turkish newspapers “Sabah” and “Hurriyet” attribute to him, and for this he has no place anymore as a UN mediator in Cyprus. I have reasons to believe he did say them, and he was not convincing at all in his (non-)rejection statements yesterday, after Christofias and Talat meeting. When a supposedly neutral mediator adopts the Turkish propaganda mottos, namely that it was a mistake that the EU promised membership to Cyprus without a solution and that this will be the last chance and if the problem is not solved by 2009, partition will follow, then the best thing the GC side has to do is to demand his urgent replacement.

The above claims (slogans) were initiated the last 2-3 years by the Turkish propaganda, and subsequently were also adopted and circulated around Europe and the international community by the conservative Anglo-American web of politicians, media (FT, WSJ, etc) and “think tanks” such as the ICG, for the sole purpose of promoting and facilitating Turkey’s EU accession process through the neutralizing her obligations and responsibilities in Cyprus. This propaganda policy aims at victimizing the EU for Turkey’s non-substantial accession progress, by projecting it as the wrong doer; and at the same time to undermine and neutralize the GC side’s moral substratum in the EU. It furthermore aims at intimidating the GC side through the blackmailing and extorting notion that this will be the last chance for a solution, and that partition will follow if it does not (essentially) capitulate to the Turkish claims and expectations.

For this Anglo-American conservative and imperialist web of Turkey’s friends, it is not a mistake that Turkey (illegally) invaded Cyprus 1974, it is not a mistake that it usurped the GC properties in the north and is looting them ever since, it is not a mistake that Turkey transfers for its own population in the north to permanently alter the demographics of the place, it is not a mistake that Turkey illegally occupies Cyprus for 35 years and has in this way been violating human rights and contributing to the isolation of the TC community, it is not a mistake that for thirdly (30) long years Turkey’s Cyprus policy was based on Ecevi’s and Denktash’s doctrine that “the Cyprus problem was solved once and for all in 1974,” it is not a mistake that the UN, the EU and the US have done close to nothing against any of the above wrongdoings of Turkey; but it is only a mistake that the EU admitted Cyprus as its member without a solution for which (non-solution) Turkey primarily bears the responsibility, as it was documented both by the EU and the UN up until Cyprus’ EU accession.

After allowing for more than 3 decades all the above, and after allowing the years to pass without telling turkey even once off; because now there is a need for Turkey to have a solution urgently for the sake of her EU aspirations, they started blackmailing the GC side which was and still is essentially the victim of all the past wrongdoings of Turkey, that this is the “last chance.” Where this pro-Turkish Anglo-American conservative web -whose membership it seems Downer has proudly attained, has been all these years?

The GC side should immediately call for Downer’s replacement, before worst things come out of his mouth and actions! He is very dangerous!

BRAVO KIFEAS GR, oracel, Paphitis and the rest stuborn Greeks, oh sorry bre GR Greek Cypriots, what have you got to say to this?

Where did I support Downer ... or even the UN as anything more than witnesses?

The UN has no right to dictate any solutions. They should just supply the evidence they have gathered against Turkey (all the violations) then bugger off and let Christofias with the EU tell the Turks where they belong!

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19590

[Paphitis]

Unfortunately the truth is that Downer did say the things Turkish newspapers “Sabah” and “Hurriyet” attribute to him, and for this he has no place anymore as a UN mediator in Cyprus. I have reasons to believe he did say them, and he was not convincing at all in his (non-)rejection statements yesterday, after Christofias and Talat meeting. When a supposedly neutral mediator adopts the Turkish propaganda mottos, namely that it was a mistake that the EU promised membership to Cyprus without a solution and that this will be the last chance and if the problem is not solved by 2009, partition will follow, then the best thing the GC side has to do is to demand his urgent replacement.

Kifeas, this sounds most unlike Alexander Downer. Do you have any valid evidence that confirms this. Because if you can confirm what you state above, then I would be the first to condemn him.

Alexander Downer has in fact undertaken a very critical pro Greek stance in one particular area, which no one will ever be aware of until the completion of the talks.

Unfortunately, the situation here in Australia, is that many traditional Greek Labour supporters do not trust him and are after his neck. They have already caused a lot of damage, as now he refuses to meet anyone that is Greek, Turkish or Cypriot when he is in Australia. He has refused to meet with The Cyprus High Commissioner on several occasions. The only individuals that get an opportunity to lobby him are Greek and Cypriot members of The Liberal Party, of which there are so few. In fact you could count them on 1 hand.

The GC side should immediately call for Downer’s replacement, before worst things come out of his mouth and actions! He is very dangerous!

There are already many Greeks who are calling for Alexander Downer's replacement in Australia. The ironic thing is that the Turkish Community is also doing the same.

Unfortunately, Alexander Downer was not very popular with the migrant Greek and Turkish electorate, who have always been traditionally Labour. He is more popular with the second and third generation.

Alexander Downer also has an Australian panel of advisors working for him. There are rumours from the Greek Community that there is a Turkish Academic on this board. I can confirm that this is not the case, and when the names of these individuals are released, at the end of the negotiations, there will be a lot of very embarrassed people within the Greek community.

It is sad I cannot reveal anything further, but perhaps I may pm you some info that will change your opinion, provided you can be trusted.

It is a fact that our worse enemy and by far the most destructive, is the Greek Community, which unfortunately allows Partisan Politics to get in the way.

[lovernomore]

Unfortunately the truth is that Downer did say the things Turkish newspapers “Sabah” and “Hurriyet” attribute to him, and for this he has no place anymore as a UN mediator in Cyprus. I have reasons to believe he did say them, and he was not convincing at all in his (non-)rejection statements yesterday, after Christofias and Talat meeting. When a supposedly neutral mediator adopts the Turkish propaganda mottos, namely that it was a mistake that the EU promised membership to Cyprus without a solution and that this will be the last chance and if the problem is not solved by 2009, partition will follow, then the best thing the GC side has to do is to demand his urgent replacement.

Kifeas, this sounds most unlike Alexander Downer. Do you have any valid evidence that confirms this. Because if you can confirm what you state above, then I would be the first to condemn him.

Alexander Downer has in fact undertaken a very critical pro Greek stance in one particular area, which no one will ever be aware of until the completion of the talks.

Unfortunately, the situation here in Australia, is that many traditional Greek Labour supporters do not trust him and are after his neck. They have already caused a lot of damage, as now he refuses to meet anyone that is Greek, Turkish or Cypriot when he is in Australia. He has refused to meet with The Cyprus High Commissioner on several occasions. The only individuals that get an opportunity to lobby him are Greek and Cypriot members of The Liberal Party, of which there are so few. In fact you could count them on 1 hand.

The GC side should immediately call for Downer’s replacement, before worst things come out of his mouth and actions! He is very dangerous!

There are already many Greeks who are calling for Alexander Downer's replacement in Australia. The ironic thing is that the Turkish Community is also doing the same.

Unfortunately, Alexander Downer is not very popular with the migrant Greek and Turkish electorate. He is more popular with the second and third generation.

Alexander Downer also has an Australian panel of advisors working for him. There are rumours from the Greek Community that there is a Turkish Academic on this board. I can confirm that this is not the case, and when the names of these individuals are released, at the end of the negotiations, there will be a lot of very embarrassed people within the Greek community.

It is sad I cannot reveal anything further, but perhaps I may pm you some info that will change your opinion, provided you can be trusted.

It is a fact that our worse enemy and by far the most destructive, is the Greek Community, which unfortunately allows Partisan Politics to get in the way.

I think paphitis is Australian Greek/Greek Cypriot James Bond. He is in a fantasy world Bre paphitis, in front of PC you are a very good JB

[Oracle]

Unfortunately the truth is that Downer did say the things Turkish newspapers “Sabah” and “Hurriyet” attribute to him, and for this he has no place anymore as a UN mediator in Cyprus. I have reasons to believe he did say them, and he was not convincing at all in his (non-)rejection statements yesterday, after Christofias and Talat meeting. When a supposedly neutral mediator adopts the Turkish propaganda mottos, namely that it was a mistake that the EU promised membership to Cyprus without a solution and that this will be the last chance and if the problem is not solved by 2009, partition will follow, then the best thing the GC side has to do is to demand his urgent replacement.

Kifeas, this sounds most unlike Alexander Downer. Do you have any valid evidence that confirms this. Because if you can confirm what you state above, then I would be the first to condemn him.

Alexander Downer has in fact undertaken a very critical pro Greek stance in one particular area, which no one will ever be aware of until the completion of the talks.

Unfortunately, the situation here in Australia, is that many traditional Greek Labour supporters do not trust him and are after his neck. They have already caused a lot of damage, as now he refuses to meet anyone that is Greek, Turkish or Cypriot when he is in Australia. He has refused to meet with The Cyprus High Commissioner on several occasions. The only individuals that get an opportunity to lobby him are Greek and Cypriot members of The Liberal Party, of which there are so few. In fact you could count them on 1 hand.

The GC side should immediately call for Downer’s replacement, before worst things come out of his mouth and actions! He is very dangerous!

There are already many Greeks who are calling for Alexander Downer's replacement in Australia. The ironic thing is that the Turkish Community is also doing the same.

Unfortunately, Alexander Downer was not very popular with the migrant Greek and Turkish electorate, who have always been traditionally Labour. He is more popular with the second and third generation.

Alexander Downer also has an Australian panel of advisors working for him. There are rumours from the Greek Community that there is a Turkish Academic on this board. I can confirm that this is not the case, and when the names of these individuals are released, at the end of the negotiations, there will be a lot of very embarrassed people within the Greek community.

It is sad I cannot reveal anything further, but perhaps I may pm you some info that will change your opinion, provided you can be trusted.

It is a fact that our worse enemy and by far the most destructive, is the Greek Community, which unfortunately allows Partisan Politics to get in the way.

In order to be good at his job, Downer would have to represent the UN position.

Unfortunately, we have ample proof of the UN position. Any Institution with the weight of evidence against Criminals, as substantial as Turkey, yet has failed to bring about the rightful and just solution, is corrupt and biased, and should be dissolved and replaced by something more appropriate for today's world.

[Paphitis]

Unfortunately the truth is that Downer did say the things Turkish newspapers “Sabah” and “Hurriyet” attribute to him, and for this he has no place anymore as a UN mediator in Cyprus. I have reasons to believe he did say them, and he was not convincing at all in his (non-)rejection statements yesterday, after Christofias and Talat meeting. When a supposedly neutral mediator adopts the Turkish propaganda mottos, namely that it was a mistake that the EU promised membership to Cyprus without a solution and that this will be the last chance and if the problem is not solved by 2009, partition will follow, then the best thing the GC side has to do is to demand his urgent replacement.

Kifeas, this sounds most unlike Alexander Downer. Do you have any valid evidence that confirms this. Because if you can confirm what you state above, then I would be the first to condemn him.

Alexander Downer has in fact undertaken a very critical pro Greek stance in one particular area, which no one will ever be aware of until the completion of the talks.

Unfortunately, the situation here in Australia, is that many traditional Greek Labour supporters do not trust him and are after his neck. They have already caused a lot of damage, as now he refuses to meet anyone that is Greek, Turkish or Cypriot when he is in Australia. He has refused to meet with The Cyprus High Commissioner on several occasions. The only individuals that get an opportunity to lobby him are Greek and Cypriot members of The Liberal Party, of which there are so few. In fact you could count them on 1 hand.

The GC side should immediately call for Downer’s replacement, before worst things come out of his mouth and actions! He is very dangerous!

There are already many Greeks who are calling for Alexander Downer's replacement in Australia. The ironic thing is that the Turkish Community is also doing the same.

Unfortunately, Alexander Downer is not very popular with the migrant Greek and Turkish electorate. He is more popular with the second and third generation.

Alexander Downer also has an Australian panel of advisors working for him. There are rumours from the Greek Community that there is a Turkish Academic on this board. I can confirm that this is not the case, and when the names of these individuals are released, at the end of the negotiations, there will be a lot of very embarrassed people within the Greek community.

It is sad I cannot reveal anything further, but perhaps I may pm you some info that will change your opinion, provided you can be trusted.

It is a fact that our worse enemy and by far the most destructive, is the Greek Community, which unfortunately allows Partisan Politics to get in the way.

I think paphitis is Australian Greek/Greek Cypriot James Bond. He is in a fantasy world Bre paphitis, in front of PC you are a very good JB

No my friend.

There are many Greeks and Cypriots in Australia who take politics very seriously.

There are many Greek and Cypriot members of The Australian Labour Party, and a few who are active members of The Australian Liberal Party. I am a member of the latter, and have been privileged to meet him on several occasions. I have also met one of his advisors, but am unable to reveal a thing.

[Paphitis]

Unfortunately the truth is that Downer did say the things Turkish newspapers “Sabah” and “Hurriyet” attribute to him, and for this he has no place anymore as a UN mediator in Cyprus. I have reasons to believe he did say them, and he was not convincing at all in his (non-)rejection statements yesterday, after Christofias and Talat meeting. When a supposedly neutral mediator adopts the Turkish propaganda mottos, namely that it was a mistake that the EU promised membership to Cyprus without a solution and that this will be the last chance and if the problem is not solved by 2009, partition will follow, then the best thing the GC side has to do is to demand his urgent replacement.

Kifeas, this sounds most unlike Alexander Downer. Do you have any valid evidence that confirms this. Because if you can confirm what you state above, then I would be the first to condemn him.

Alexander Downer has in fact undertaken a very critical pro Greek stance in one particular area, which no one will ever be aware of until the completion of the talks.

Unfortunately, the situation here in Australia, is that many traditional Greek Labour supporters do not trust him and are after his neck. They have already caused a lot of damage, as now he refuses to meet anyone that is Greek, Turkish or Cypriot when he is in Australia. He has refused to meet with The Cyprus High Commissioner on several occasions. The only individuals that get an opportunity to lobby him are Greek and Cypriot members of The Liberal Party, of which there are so few. In fact you could count them on 1 hand.

The GC side should immediately call for Downer’s replacement, before worst things come out of his mouth and actions! He is very dangerous!

There are already many Greeks who are calling for Alexander Downer's replacement in Australia. The ironic thing is that the Turkish Community is also doing the same.

Unfortunately, Alexander Downer was not very popular with the migrant Greek and Turkish electorate, who have always been traditionally Labour. He is more popular with the second and third generation.

Alexander Downer also has an Australian panel of advisors working for him. There are rumours from the Greek Community that there is a Turkish Academic on this board. I can confirm that this is not the case, and when the names of these individuals are released, at the end of the negotiations, there will be a lot of very embarrassed people within the Greek community.

It is sad I cannot reveal anything further, but perhaps I may pm you some info that will change your opinion, provided you can be trusted.

It is a fact that our worse enemy and by far the most destructive, is the Greek Community, which unfortunately allows Partisan Politics to get in the way.

In order to be good at his job, Downer would have to represent the UN position.

Unfortunately, we have ample proof of the UN position. Any Institution with the weight of evidence against Criminals, as substantial as Turkey, yet has failed to bring about the rightful and just solution, is corrupt and biased, and should be dissolved and replaced by something more appropriate for today's world.

Perhaps you may be correct.

I do not wish to defend the UN position on Cyprus.

You must remember that Alexander Downer, will play a very small role in the negotiations. The key onus is on President Christofias and Mr. Talat to draft their own agreed solution to the Cyprus Problem, which they would then put to a referendum. His role is to chair the meetings and to be some kind of umpire when disagreements arise. He can only make recommendations when there is a stalemate, but it is still up to President Christofias and Mr. Talat to accept these recommendations.

I have absolutely not come across any evidence that Alexander Downer is taking a pro Turkish stance or a pro Greek stance. And believe me, I have been on the lookout and always will be. I care for Cyprus just as much as anyone here, and if I uncover anything which I may consider to be detrimental to Cyprus, then I am prepared to create some waves from within the party.

[Paphitis]

Kifeas wrote:

After allowing for more than 3 decades all the above, and after allowing the years to pass without telling turkey even once off; because now there is a need for Turkey to have a solution urgently for the sake of her EU aspirations, they started blackmailing the GC side which was and still is essentially the victim of all the past wrongdoings of Turkey, that this is the “last chance.” Where this pro-Turkish Anglo-American conservative web -whose membership it seems Downer has proudly attained, has been all these years?

The above has been discussed with Alexander Downer in the past. Time frames have even been mentioned, and his response was one of total opposition. His personal stance is for the talks to go on for as long as it takes for President Christofias and Mr. Talat to come to some kind of agreement which they deem to have half a chance of getting a yes vote from both sides. This is the ultimate goal, so I am told.

As for the rest of your post Kifeas, there are many Greeks and Cypriots who subscribe to your theories about Alexander Downer attaining a pro- Turkish Anglo-American stance, but fortunately these sentiments are at least greatly exaggerated at best, and more than likely very false.

It is no secret that Australia has always had a pro-American Foreign Policy. We have troops in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Many people are very angry at Australia's involvement in Iraq. The Australian Liberal Party did in fact lose the last election partly due to this involvement and also because The Australian Labour Party promised to withdraw the troops within a year. However, the sad truth about countries such as Australia is that the 2 dominant parties are very centrist with no fundamental political ideology, and their Foreign Policies are almost identical. Australian troops will withdraw from Iraq, as was always originally planned, even by The Australian Liberal Party, but the troops in Afghanistan will remain. In Australia, we have changes in Government, but Foreign Policy is very static and who knows what really governs this because I for one have never really been able to work it out.

Alexander Downer has also been asked whether he deems these current talks as the "last chance". His reply was that he does not think that this would be the case. It seems to me that this line which has originated from Turkey in light of his recent visit, is some kind of scare mongering by the Turkish Media in order to make Cypriots insecure about the future and thus be more accepting of any solution which would favour Turkish interests. I can honestly tell you that it is unlikely Alexander Downer spoke to the Turkish Media and reveal information such as 2009 being the make or break year or the "last chance". You can observe his interviews each time when he is in Cyprus, and you can see that Alexander Downer is a very cautious politician who also keeps his cards very close to his chest. I have never heard him reveal any "juicy" information about what occurs behind closed doors and he prefers to speak more generically, in order to not create any media waves which may jeopardise the peace process. The Australian media also has not mentioned such statements that Alexander Downer allegedly made in Turkey.

Yesterday, when he answered some questions from a RIK journalist about these alleged statements, he basically denied any knowledge and stated that “he has not seen the Hurriyet report” and that as “Australian Foreign Affairs Minister for nearly 12 years, he has been misappropriated on several occasions”. Such is the nature of politics. One thing is for sure, he would not have made those statements as alleged by Hurriyet. It is completely not the Alexander Downer we have come to know here in Australia. He is much more intelligent than what you give him credit for. This is all IMHO.

[Kifeas]

Paphitis, I have a complete disrespect for the Turkish media and publications, as they are nothing more than factories of fabrications and distortions for the sole aim of blinding and disorienting the Turkish people. When it comes to Cyprus, 99% of the cases they are out of this planet when it comes to their analyses and claims on facts. I have a strong feeling the case of Alex. Downer is one of those rare 1% cases in which they do not lie. I learned so well in which cases they lie or distort for propaganda purposes, and in which they do not, to the extent that I can recognise immediately as soon as I read something if they do the one or the other. The few doubts I had when I first read those reports in Hurriyet, yesterday morning, vanished as soon as I watched Downer's supposedly "rejection" comments on TV last night. He was not convincing at all, that he did not say those things.

Downer will play an important role, when things come to a dead-lock and he will be required to submit a report to the UN SG and the UN SC in which to administer blame for the impasse. After what he said, I no longer trust he will do his job with the outmost integrity that is required for his role! He will try to safeguard Turkey's interests and throw the blame on both sides equally, even though it is clear that the Turkish side comes to the negotiating table with profoundly extreme, unreasonable and illegitimate demands. He has already -fortunately for us and unfortunately for him, revealed the colours of his shield.

[halil]

Re Bafidimu ,

shall we ask him , if he knows you ?

Shall we ask him , how he is friendly with Greek lobby in Australia ?

how effective you are on him ?

you keep claming all the time in this forum .

How he could be bias , if he has connections with lobby people as you are saying ?

may be we can copy all your claims and Talat will give him at next meeting ? After all your saying people are going to belive that he is under the pressure of Greek lobby actions .......

THey are diplomats man , can talk many thinkgs behind the closed doors , some times these things will leak to press . to change the atmospher .

At the end we will (Cypriots) will decide . yes or no ..... rest of it story ....
u understand re BAFİDİ !

[Paphitis]

Paphitis, I have a complete disrespect of the Turkish media and publications, as they are nothing more than a factory of fabrications and distortions for the sole aim of blinding and disorienting the Turkish people. When it comes to Cyprus, 99% of the cases they are out of this planet when it comes to their analyses and claims on facts. I have a strong feeling the case of Alex. Downer is one of those rare 1% cases in which they do not lie. I learned so well in which cases they lie or distort for propaganda purposes, and in which they do not, to the extent that I can recognise immediately as soon as I read something if they do the one or the other. The few doubts I had when I first read those reports in Hurriyet, yesterday morning, vanished as soon as I watch Downer's "rejection" comments on TV last night. He was not convincing at all, that he did not say those things.

I am very glad to notice that the your posts are merely expressing an opinion, which you are entitled to convey.

I can assure you that Alexander Downer's reply was what I would have expected from him, when answering very sensitive questions. His mannerisms and the look on his face, as though he expected this question, seems to indicate to me, that he is not lying, as far as I am concerned. However, I will look into this matter, not by monitoring the media, but I shall be asking some questions.

Downer will play an important role, when things come to a dead-lock and he will be required to submit a report to the UN SG and the UN SC in which to administer blame for the impasse. After what he said, I no longer trust he will do his job with the outmost integrity that is required for his role! He will try to safeguard Turkey's interests and throw the blame on both sides equally, even though it is clear that the Turkish side comes to the negotiating table with profoundly extreme, unreasonable and illegitimate demands.

Every word you state above is completely correct. He will in fact be submitting regular reports to the UN SG and the UN SC.

As for what he has allegedly said to the Turkish media, this is highly contentious. It also seems to go against everything I would expect of him.

Alexander Downer has also come across as a very genuine individual, who also can claim to have his integrity intact over the 12 years he was Australian Foreign Affairs Minister, and almost became Prime Minister at 1 stage. He also is quite a charming fellow, very polite and has an extraordinary blokey sense of humour, and can be very down to earth, when not in formal social situations.

The last time I actually met him, he did mention that both sides are getting caught up in very minute detail, which can be frustrating as it inhibits progress. He also mentioned many unreasonable demands being put forward which would never be acceptable, and are in fact "unworkable". It is his duty to then offer recommendations to end the deadlock which is ultimately provided to him from high profile constitutional experts and academics. Reports to the UN SC and SG are also submitted which from what I can gather, are honest and outline each sides demands, both reasonable and unreasonable, and his assessment of who is ultimately the recalcitrant side on that particular aspect of contention.

Lets not get to carried away just yet.