Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

those wanting to read the full text of the AG of the ECJ, here is the link

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... resmax=100

hit the top left link where it is written "C-420/07"

I have had the opportunity to go over the entire text of Advocate General Kokott’s opinion on the Apostolides V. Orams case, and I have to congratulate her for taking the pain to examine the issue from all its possible tangents, and produce an excellent analysis that lives little to no room for doubts as to where the whole issue stands. Mrs. kokott, through her excellent work, has indeed very skillfully swept one after the other all arguments provided by the Orams side, as to why the RoC court decision should not be adopted by the UK. What astonished me was the EU commission’s blinkered attitude and opinion, in favor of the Orams. Among other one sided approaches, the commission submitted to the court the outrageous and politically motivated opinion that registering the case in the UK or elsewhere in the EU, for execution, would be contrary to “international public policy.” Of course, AG’s report not only dealt very effectively with such a deliberate nevertheless irrational view, but in fact it almost ridiculed it.

Of course, having the Cyprus issue under Oli Rhen’s enlargement portfolio, I personally wouldn’t have expected anything better. I wonder though why Mr. Oli Rhen protests when he is pointed out the obvious, namely that in the scope of facilitating Turkey’s EU accession process, he seems more than ready to accept that legality and legitimacy as they pertain to the rights of the Greek Cypriots in Cyprus, must take a second seat. The commission (Mr. Rhen’s team, more precisely) does not seem to be too concerned at all with the need for the relentless unethical looting and cementing of GC properties in the occupied north, to come to an end. After all, in their eyes, the GCs had rejected the Annan plan and they have to be given a “lesson,” and since Turkey’s project is far too important than justice and human rights.

As for those wondering why the UK refrained from being a party in submitting to the ECJ its views on the case, well, for what reason if the commission was anyway going to do the “job” equally well. Do I sound too cynical? Oh yea, I do! I have learned it from following British politics.

[Viewpoint]

Youd be surprised, with YTL interest rates of 22% who needs a UK pension.

I think a lot of Turkish Cypriots thought the same thing last time Turkish lira interest rates were very high, prior to the 1999 Turkish banking crisis. The results are well known:

http://www.sant.ox.ac.uk/esc/ramses/sonan.pdf

The banking crisis hit the north of Cyprus in late 1999. The amount deposited in the failing banks was USD 163 million in 58.000 different accounts. This amount represented almost 18% of all bank deposits in the banking system. More than 30,000 individuals were affected, making the crisis a real social trauma for Turkish Cypriots.

This time round, the results may be a bit different. Turkish Cypriots now have more sense than to keep their money in Turkish lira; it may be foreigners living in the north who get their fingers burned.

All deposits were paid in full and the improving interest rates the returns provide a very comfortable life for the Brits who have sold their sme detached in the Uk and settled in the TRNC.

You fail to mention that, while Turkey has scored a great success in bringing inflation down from the 70-80% levels at which it was stuck for decades, Turkish inflation has stubbornly remained at about 10% for the past three years, still quite a high level by European standards, and there is every chance that it will move back up to about 15% in the current crisis. 22% annual interest is not actually that good in a currency likely to loose 15% of its value over the same period.

The Turkish lira has always offered great returns to investors, provided you get your money out before the next crisis, which happen every 5-10 years, comes along and wipes out everything. I speak from experience as one who got burnt in the January-February 1994 crisis in Turkey. I do not believe that many Turkish Cypriots keep their assets in Turkish lira nowadays.

Thats how investments go, who'd of thought Lehman Bros would go under and a number of so called sound big banks are still in trouble, the Brits have been enjoying the high returns on the Turkish lira for the last few years but like any investment be it currency be it stocks and shares it can go up as well as go down, so painting all this doom and gloom as I have shown is just your fixed opinion based on 1 bad misjudged investment you made, you could have made the same loses buying a number of A rated shares.

[Viewpoint]

The whole of the TRNC is similar to a PONZI scheme. A president who has no power, a supposedly independent country using some other country's currency, a finance minister who goes begging to Turkey, a huge proportion of the population in public service jobs, an economy based on dealing in illegally expropriated land, which is sold without basic services. The list goes on and on.

And still people prefer this to the "RoC" ask yourself why? you need to do a lot of soul searching and acknowledging that there is a barrier which will never be overcome if GCs remain with the same mind set they have been fixated with for the last 48 years.

[Viewpoint]

those wanting to read the full text of the AG of the ECJ, here is the link

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... resmax=100

hit the top left link where it is written "C-420/07"

I have had the opportunity to go over the entire text of Advocate General Kokott’s opinion on the Apostolides V. Orams case, and I have to congratulate her for taking the pain to examine the issue from all its possible tangents, and produce an excellent analysis that lives little to no room for doubts as to where the whole issue stands. Mrs. kokott, through her excellent work, has indeed very skillfully swept one after the other all arguments provided by the Orams side, as to why the RoC court decision should not be adopted by the UK. What astonished me was the EU commission’s blinkered attitude and opinion, in favor of the Orams. Among other one sided approaches, the commission submitted to the court the outrageous and politically motivated opinion that registering the case in the UK or elsewhere in the EU, for execution, would be contrary to “international public policy.” Of course, AG’s report not only dealt very effectively with such a deliberate nevertheless irrational view, but in fact it almost ridiculed it.

Of course, having the Cyprus issue under Oli Rhen’s enlargement portfolio, I personally wouldn’t have expected anything better. I wonder though why Mr. Oli Rhen protests when he is pointed out the obvious, namely that in the scope of facilitating Turkey’s EU accession process, he seems more than ready to accept that legality and legitimacy as they pertain to the rights of the Greek Cypriots in Cyprus, must take a second seat. The commission (Mr. Rhen’s team, more precisely) does not seem to be too concerned at all with the need for the relentless unethical looting and cementing of GC properties in the occupied north, to come to an end. After all, in their eyes, the GCs had rejected the Annan plan and they have to be given a “lesson,” and since Turkey’s project is far too important than justice and human rights.

As for those wondering why the UK refrained from being a party in submitting to the ECJ its views on the case, well, for what reason if the commission was anyway going to do the “job” equally well. Do I sound too cynical? Oh yea, I do! I have learned it from following British politics.

Has this opinion been adopted?

[Oracle]

those wanting to read the full text of the AG of the ECJ, here is the link

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... resmax=100

hit the top left link where it is written "C-420/07"

I have had the opportunity to go over the entire text of Advocate General Kokott’s opinion on the Apostolides V. Orams case, and I have to congratulate her for taking the pain to examine the issue from all its possible tangents, and produce an excellent analysis that lives little to no room for doubts as to where the whole issue stands. Mrs. kokott, through her excellent work, has indeed very skillfully swept one after the other all arguments provided by the Orams side, as to why the RoC court decision should not be adopted by the UK. What astonished me was the EU commission’s blinkered attitude and opinion, in favor of the Orams. Among other one sided approaches, the commission submitted to the court the outrageous and politically motivated opinion that registering the case in the UK or elsewhere in the EU, for execution, would be contrary to “international public policy.” Of course, AG’s report not only dealt very effectively with such a deliberate nevertheless irrational view, but in fact it almost ridiculed it.

Of course, having the Cyprus issue under Oli Rhen’s enlargement portfolio, I personally wouldn’t have expected anything better. I wonder though why Mr. Oli Rhen protests when he is pointed out the obvious, namely that in the scope of facilitating Turkey’s EU accession process, he seems more than ready to accept that legality and legitimacy as they pertain to the rights of the Greek Cypriots in Cyprus, must take a second seat. The commission (Mr. Rhen’s team, more precisely) does not seem to be too concerned at all with the need for the relentless unethical looting and cementing of GC properties in the occupied north, to come to an end. After all, in their eyes, the GCs had rejected the Annan plan and they have to be given a “lesson,” and since Turkey’s project is far too important than justice and human rights.

As for those wondering why the UK refrained from being a party in submitting to the ECJ its views on the case, well, for what reason if the commission was anyway going to do the “job” equally well. Do I sound too cynical? Oh yea, I do! I have learned it from following British politics.

I have only skimmed sections, but this stands out for me so far:

47. Consequently, it is also a matter of dispute between the parties as to whether the recognition and enforcement of the judgment at issue here would be detrimental or conducive to a final settlement of the property questions. Accordingly, Mr Apostolides submits that the sale of expropriated land in the TRNC to nationals of other Member States makes its restitution in the course of a subsequent consensual solution more difficult. If people in his position could enforce claims by reason of ownership of such land in other Member States, that would deter potential acquirers.

That seems quite significant as a remedial recommendation.

[CopperLine]

The heart of this case - that is the determination of the legal issues at hand - are contained in Paragraph 1.5 and The Conclusion :

1.5 - "The Court of Appeal, which is the court dealing with the enforcement proceedings, now raises the question whether courts of the United Kingdom are obliged to do so under Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 of 22 December 2000 on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters. (4) Doubts exist in that regard, first, because the judgment relates to land in an area of Cyprus in which the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise sovereign jurisdiction and in which the application of Community law is therefore largely suspended. Secondly, there were irregularities in the service of the documents which instituted the proceedings at the Orams’ place of residence in the Turkish Cypriot area."

And (emphasis added for focus),

V - "1. The suspension of the application of the acquis communautaire in those areas of the Republic of Cyprus in which the Government of the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise effective control, provided for in Article 1(1) of Protocol No 10 to the Act of Accession of 2003, does not preclude a court of another Member State from recognising and enforcing, on the basis of Regulation No 44/2001, a judgment given by a court of the Republic of Cyprus involving elements with a bearing on the area not controlled by the government of that State.

2. Article 35(1) in conjunction with Article 22(1) of Regulation No 44/2001 does not entitle a Member State court to refuse recognition and enforcement of a judgment given by a court of another Member State concerning land in an area of the latter Member State over which the Government of that Member State does not exercise effective control.

3. A court of a Member State may not refuse recognition and enforcement of a judgment on the basis of the public policy proviso in Article 34(1) of Regulation No 44/2001 because the judgment, although formally enforceable in the State where it was given, cannot be enforced there for factual reasons.

4. Article 34(2) of Regulation No 44/2001 is to be interpreted as meaning that recognition and enforcement of a default judgment may not be refused by reference to irregularities in the service of the document which instituted the proceedings, if it was possible for the defendant, who initially failed to enter an appearance, to commence proceedings to challenge the default judgment, if the courts of the State where the judgment was given then reviewed the judgment in full and fair proceedings, and if there are no indications that the defendant’s right to a fair hearing was infringed in those proceedings."

By the way, this opinion by Kokott is not a judgement : it is an opinion. The judges now have to decide whether or not the case brings up new issues of law over which they must decide. To be clear, this opinion and this case at European Court of Justice (not ECHR), is not deciding the rights or wrongs of the Orams' occupying legal/illegal property in northern Cyprus. It is considering the extent of jurisdiction and enforceability of national law between one state member and another state member. This has much larger and, arguably much greater significance, for the whole Union than a property case in Cyprus. All those people who are sceptical or even hostile to the EU should pay close attention to this case; as should supporters and sympathisers of the EU.

[askimwos]

Interesting post from atca forum,
Just thought it's worth having a deeper insight on the divisionists' views on the orams case...

Dear everyone,

We are losing the Orams. My Greek friends are now telling me that the "occupation of Cyprus' days are numbered."

What about the half a million Turkish Cypriots living abroad? They are not to invest in the TRNC anymore in fear of Greek persecution using the ECJ!

What options do we have? I never felt hatred to anyone but after this ruling I feel real hatred. In fact so do many of my CTP'li friends. A lot of people are very concerned, but the Orams case is going to cause immense friction in Cyprus. Everyone is now in danger of losing their properties. It doesnt matter if its e? or m? points anymore. According to the EU, the TRNC belongs to the Greeks basically.

Everyone here in the UK are in danger of losing their houses if they have any property in the TRNC on previous Greek land.

The only way of protecting ourselves is to close the border but this will mean 5000 people becoming unemployed as many people cross over to work there.

Either way I think what needs to be done is protect the TRNC. Once the bordrs are closed we can talk about what to do.

Another interesting thing is NO TURKISH official has made any statement, whatsoever! Not even to reassure the Turkish Cypriots that something will be done! The only statement I heard yesterdar was from the Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan, who said "Turkey wanted a genuine solution to the Cyprus problem" and that the "EU should be more motivating to the Greek Cypriots in the solutions process."

I am no expert. I own a kebab shop. But can anyone tell me here how they are able to sleep at nights? Is there not going to be any movement from our Community here? Or even back home in the TRNC?

ATCA did a lot thanks to your efforts. But what? What changed? Nothing! Its all already sorted! The EU declareda JIHAD on the Turkish Cypriots!

Guys let me ask you another question?

Remember when the S-300 missiles were going to be brought to Southern Cyprus was it 10 years ago? Remember Turkey's reaction? Turkey threatened war and to do whatever it takes to stop those S-300 missiles from coming to Cyprus!
Well my question to you all is this: Is the bringing of the S-300 missilies worse? Or the Orams Case outcome which places half a million of us into nothing!

I dont know what do say but many people I speak with think that the case signals the end of the TRNC. Even after a solution, this case will be binding! The whole issue has just blown up now.
But keep up the work ATCA because I think more people follow you than they do anyone else.

[Jerry]

It looks like Frank, who knows so much about north Cyprus that he created a website (Frank and Joan in north Cyprus), doesn't even know the difference between the European Court of Justice and The European Court of Human Rights. He's too blinkered to realise that the GCs lost much more land ( six times?)in the "exchange" than the TCs and we have not created an industry from the sale of their property. Still, at least he seems worried, which is a good sign.

He's correct in his assertion that the problem cannot be solved on a piece by piece basis but if he was honest he would also admit that what he and the other thieving carpetbaggers have done has made the Cyprus problem even more difficult to resolve. Then he goes on to mention the suggestion that they are not getting all their mail from the UK because GCs are blocking it - hardly surprising if you live at the wrong "address"


Lots in the newspaper this week about the property issue. This is not really surprising as the two presidents have announced that there next talking point is the property issue.

The paper claims that the EU have dealt a serious blow to the Orams case by getting a renowned legal figure in Europe to suggest that the Orams could lose their home here or have to pay compensation to the original Greek owner. Obviously if this decision is followed by the European Court of Human Rights, this would have a very serous effect on all of us who own property here.

At the same time a British Peer has claimed that people have only themselves to blame for not getting title deeds etc here in Cyprus and a colleague of his suggests that we Brits have left our brains in the left luggage at Stansted.

Now all of this comes at time when the Greek Cypriots are stirring the pot ready for talks. Nobody has ever mentioned all the land in the south owned by Turkish Cypriots and what compensation deals are to be made to them. This is clearly because, according to Greek Cypriots, history started in 1974, absolutely nothing happened prior to that. In the seven years we have been living here we have witnessed all this time and again and it always seems to coincide with some important discussion events. The whole cannot be solved on a piece by piece basis, it has to be politically resolved and that means that both sides require the will and the ability to compromise. This probably means that we will still be a divided island for the next 10 years or more as they have proven time and again that they cannot live together.

One of the worst things that ever happened here was allowing the South to join with EU without an island agreement being signed first.

Still lots of post is getting lost on it's way over here. There are suggestions, unproven of course, that there are Greek Cypriots working in the London sorting offices and blocking the mail. It would appear that official mail from banks etc is getting through but personal mail from families etc is getting lost frequently. Now a British Parliament pressure group is to investigate, it will be interesting to see if the mail improves.

The economic situation is worsening here also. The paper reports that there are an average of 20 homes and businesses per day being repossessed as a result of spiralling debt. Various bodies are asking for government handouts to ease the situation. Don't think that a begging bowl is the solution, maybe an understanding that you can't spend what you have not got would be an advantage.

Just when I was thinking of buying a Sat Nav system, ready for if ever we get to France the Greeks have got upset about the ones imported to the South. Why, because they use the Turkish names for towns and villages here in the North. Maybe the idea of a Sat Nav system is just a hint to Joan for my Christmas present, don't think it worked though. Probably just new slippers again.

[bill cobbett]

Interesting post from atca forum,
Just thought it's worth having a deeper insight on the divisionists' views on the orams case...

Dear everyone,

We are losing the Orams. My Greek friends are now telling me that the "occupation of Cyprus' days are numbered."

What about the half a million Turkish Cypriots living abroad? They are not to invest in the TRNC anymore in fear of Greek persecution using the ECJ!

What options do we have? I never felt hatred to anyone but after this ruling I feel real hatred. In fact so do many of my CTP'li friends. A lot of people are very concerned, but the Orams case is going to cause immense friction in Cyprus. Everyone is now in danger of losing their properties. It doesnt matter if its e? or m? points anymore. According to the EU, the TRNC belongs to the Greeks basically.

Everyone here in the UK are in danger of losing their houses if they have any property in the TRNC on previous Greek land.

The only way of protecting ourselves is to close the border but this will mean 5000 people becoming unemployed as many people cross over to work there.

Either way I think what needs to be done is protect the TRNC. Once the bordrs are closed we can talk about what to do.

Another interesting thing is NO TURKISH official has made any statement, whatsoever! Not even to reassure the Turkish Cypriots that something will be done! The only statement I heard yesterdar was from the Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan, who said "Turkey wanted a genuine solution to the Cyprus problem" and that the "EU should be more motivating to the Greek Cypriots in the solutions process."

I am no expert. I own a kebab shop. But can anyone tell me here how they are able to sleep at nights? Is there not going to be any movement from our Community here? Or even back home in the TRNC?

ATCA did a lot thanks to your efforts. But what? What changed? Nothing! Its all already sorted! The EU declareda JIHAD on the Turkish Cypriots!

Guys let me ask you another question?

Remember when the S-300 missiles were going to be brought to Southern Cyprus was it 10 years ago? Remember Turkey's reaction? Turkey threatened war and to do whatever it takes to stop those S-300 missiles from coming to Cyprus!
Well my question to you all is this: Is the bringing of the S-300 missilies worse? Or the Orams Case outcome which places half a million of us into nothing!

I dont know what do say but many people I speak with think that the case signals the end of the TRNC. Even after a solution, this case will be binding! The whole issue has just blown up now.
But keep up the work ATCA because I think more people follow you than they do anyone else.

The man's right to warn and worry about the Orams and tens of thousands of similar cases, which I suspect will be exploding catastrophically sometime in the new year.

2008 - not a good time to have any money in a Tnct bank or a property on stolen land.

[Kifeas]

The heart of this case - that is the determination of the legal issues at hand - are contained in Paragraph 1.5 and The Conclusion :

1.5 - "The Court of Appeal, which is the court dealing with the enforcement proceedings, now raises the question whether courts of the United Kingdom are obliged to do so under Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 of 22 December 2000 on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters. (4) Doubts exist in that regard, first, because the judgment relates to land in an area of Cyprus in which the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise sovereign jurisdiction and in which the application of Community law is therefore largely suspended. Secondly, there were irregularities in the service of the documents which instituted the proceedings at the Orams’ place of residence in the Turkish Cypriot area."

And (emphasis added for focus),

V - "1. The suspension of the application of the acquis communautaire in those areas of the Republic of Cyprus in which the Government of the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise effective control, provided for in Article 1(1) of Protocol No 10 to the Act of Accession of 2003, does not preclude a court of another Member State from recognising and enforcing, on the basis of Regulation No 44/2001, a judgment given by a court of the Republic of Cyprus involving elements with a bearing on the area not controlled by the government of that State.

2. Article 35(1) in conjunction with Article 22(1) of Regulation No 44/2001 does not entitle a Member State court to refuse recognition and enforcement of a judgment given by a court of another Member State concerning land in an area of the latter Member State over which the Government of that Member State does not exercise effective control.

3. A court of a Member State may not refuse recognition and enforcement of a judgment on the basis of the public policy proviso in Article 34(1) of Regulation No 44/2001 because the judgment, although formally enforceable in the State where it was given, cannot be enforced there for factual reasons.

4. Article 34(2) of Regulation No 44/2001 is to be interpreted as meaning that recognition and enforcement of a default judgment may not be refused by reference to irregularities in the service of the document which instituted the proceedings, if it was possible for the defendant, who initially failed to enter an appearance, to commence proceedings to challenge the default judgment, if the courts of the State where the judgment was given then reviewed the judgment in full and fair proceedings, and if there are no indications that the defendant’s right to a fair hearing was infringed in those proceedings."

By the way, this opinion by Kokott is not a judgement : it is an opinion. The judges now have to decide whether or not the case brings up new issues of law over which they must decide. To be clear, this opinion and this case at European Court of Justice (not ECHR), is not deciding the rights or wrongs of the Orams' occupying legal/illegal property in northern Cyprus. It is considering the extent of jurisdiction and enforceability of national law between one state member and another state member. This has much larger and, arguably much greater significance, for the whole Union than a property case in Cyprus. All those people who are sceptical or even hostile to the EU should pay close attention to this case; as should supporters and sympathisers of the EU.

Now it is a judgment, Copper.

The court gave its verdict. Apostolides has won.

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/communiq ... 0039en.pdf

Full text of the judgment:

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... f=C-420/07