Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

[DT.]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

SHow me where it was agreed that the basis of the talks would be the AP?

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

SHow me where it was agreed that the basis of the talks would be the AP?

Ask Kikapu to confirm what I am stating.

[DT.]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

SHow me where it was agreed that the basis of the talks would be the AP?

Ask Kikapu to confirm what I am stating.

You stated it, where the hell does it say the basis of the present talks is the AP?

[doesntmatter]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

SHow me where it was agreed that the basis of the talks would be the AP?

What is it you are after in these talks?

[DT.]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

SHow me where it was agreed that the basis of the talks would be the AP?

What is it you are after in these talks?

A fair Federal democratic solution. Can you tell me why people seem to think that the basis of these talks is the AP?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, I wrote about this in another thread. In short, I said that Talat went to a harder line because Christofias declared that the Annan Plan could not be the basis of the negotiations, before the negotiations started. It was natural for Talat to adopt a harder line and fall back to the Annan Plan when it comes to the give and take time. And, kikapu, I never said that the Annan Plan is so great for the GC's or anybody else. I said that under the circumstances we had no other option and we had to take it in order to prevent the worst. I am surprised at you not remembering this.

I did not say that you believed that the AP was great for the GC's even though you support it, but rather Denktash has you to believe that the GC's missed a great opportunity and that he was thankful for that.

Bananiot, Talat has not adopted to a harder line. What Talat is doing, is just repeating in clear language what was in the AP 2004, whether it was in the open or disguised, because since the AP is not being used, Talat has no choice but to come out and tell everyone what he wants, otherwise he will not be able to get what he would have gotten had the AP passed. The only way he can play the game now, is with all the cards open, and this is because Chriostofias said NO to using the AP. If nothing else, you can now see very clearly what the AP was all about. And now that the GC's have seen what Talat wants, they are more clear what the AP was all about. Talat falling back to the AP as a compromise will not fool anyone, I do not believe, because there is no difference what Talat is asking now, and what was in the AP. Nice try all the same however, but it is doom to fail.

Christofias will make sure every item is discussed and approved before the whole proposal is put up for referendum. Don't forget, if things should go bad for Christofias, he has a trump card up his sleeve to derail the whole process rather than be forced into something he does not like and that the GC's will say NO again, which he does not want to happen, and that is to demand the removal of all the Turkish Troops and deny Turkey any Guarantor Power status. Talat will say NO and that will be the end of these negotiations, unless Turkey can come in and become a player to solve the talks in order to save her EU talks at the same time.

You change like the wind and as it suits your argument, didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP? You cannot expect the UN and EU to throw away all that work and cost to start a fresh just because the GCs demand, even if it were re-written the basics would remain the same. Christofiyas can pay which ever card he wishes the TCs will counter and show to the world that it is the GC who do not really want a solution unless they get everything they demand.

didn't we agree that the basis for the current talks in the AP?

We did.?? ....When did we agree on this.??

The only thing I said to you was, sure not all things in the 9,256 pages of the AP 2004 were bad and some may be used, but not as a package that Talat wanted to and it has been rejected as the basis for these talks despite what your lawyer friend told you. !

The only card Christofias is playing in my view, are the cards dealt with the agreement on the BBF by the TC and GC leaders in the 70's and he is playing the True Federation game which is what is supported by the UNSC based on one country, one citizenship and one Federal government and now that Cyprus is in the EU, the EU can only support True Democracy no matter what Christofias or Talat wants. Talat is still on the Confederation bandwagon with 2 people and 2 states and two of everything else with a Micky Mouse for central government. What was in the AP 2004 has now become obsolete since 2004 and there is no going back to AP, and I don't know why it is so hard for you to get this VP. The situation now is much different than they were in 2004.

Had the AP 2004 passed, Cyprus will not even be in the EU today, because the new United Cyprus would have had to re-apply for membership and with all the Undemocratic and Human Rights violations instituted in the AP 2004, the EU would never had allowed United Cyprus to join, which at that point, there would have been an agreed partition for each state to make their own application for EU membership. At that point, I doubt the outcome would have been good either for the TC's and the GC's. Now everyone Cypriot is in the EU, and all there is left, is to bring the rest of the country into the EU, which is the part that is going to help the TC's much more than the GC's. The ball is in your court VP. The question remains to be answered is, do you want to play or do you want to sit on the sidelines and watch the GC's play without you.?

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

The only thing I said to you was, sure not all things in the 9,256 pages of the AP 2004 were bad and some may be used, but not as a package that Talat wanted to and it has been rejected as the basis for these talks despite what your lawyer friend told you. !

Thats enough (the highlighted part), thank you for backing me up that the AP will be used as a "basis" for any future agreements you cannot just do away with all the hard work the UN EU TCs and GCs put into for that important "basis" which will be built upon if both sides agree.

The only card Christofias is playing in my view, are the cards dealt with the agreement on the BBF by the TC and GC leaders in the 70's and he is playing the True Federation game which is what is supported by the UNSC based on one country, one citizenship and one Federal government and now that Cyprus is in the EU, the EU can only support True Democracy no matter what Christofias or Talat wants. Talat is still on the Confederation bandwagon with 2 people and 2 states and two of everything else with a Micky Mouse for central government. What was in the AP 2004 has now become obsolete since 2004 and there is no going back to AP, and I don't know why it is so hard for you to get this VP. The situation now is much different than they were in 2004.

We are all fully aware of where you stand directly in line with the GCs and their leader and totally against anything the TCs demand. Do we to have the right to argue what we believe is best for us or do you adovcate we just close our eyes and accept everything the GCs are trying to impose on us?

Had the AP 2004 passed, Cyprus will not even be in the EU today, because the new United Cyprus would have had to re-apply for membership and with all the Undemocratic and Human Rights violations instituted in the AP 2004, the EU would never had allowed United Cyprus to join, which at that point, there would have been an agreed partition for each state to make their own application for EU membership. At that point, I doubt the outcome would have been good either for the TC's and the GC's. Now everyone Cypriot is in the EU, and all there is left, is to bring the rest of the country into the EU, which is the part that is going to help the TC's much more than the GC's. The ball is in your court VP. The question remains to be answered is, do you want to play or do you want to sit on the sidelines and watch the GC's play without you.?

Total and utter rubbish, the AP was indexed to the entry of the whole island into the EU as one country 1st May 2004.

[Kikapu]

The only thing I said to you was, sure not all things in the 9,256 pages of the AP 2004 were bad and some may be used, but not as a package that Talat wanted to and it has been rejected as the basis for these talks despite what your lawyer friend told you. !

Thats enough (the highlighted part), thank you for backing me up that the AP will be used as a "basis" for any future agreements you cannot just do away with all the hard work the UN EU TCs and GCs put into for that important "basis" which will be built upon if both sides agree.

Oh man, you really like to stretch the truth. So, even if only few pages of the 9,256 of 2004 AP are used in today's talks, you want to make the claim that the talks are based on the AP. What ever lights your fire VP, it's fine by me.!

The only card Christofias is playing in my view, are the cards dealt with the agreement on the BBF by the TC and GC leaders in the 70's and he is playing the True Federation game which is what is supported by the UNSC based on one country, one citizenship and one Federal government and now that Cyprus is in the EU, the EU can only support True Democracy no matter what Christofias or Talat wants. Talat is still on the Confederation bandwagon with 2 people and 2 states and two of everything else with a Micky Mouse for central government. What was in the AP 2004 has now become obsolete since 2004 and there is no going back to AP, and I don't know why it is so hard for you to get this VP. The situation now is much different than they were in 2004.

We are all fully aware of where you stand directly in line with the GCs and their leader and totally against anything the TCs demand. Do we to have the right to argue what we believe is best for us or do you adovcate we just close our eyes and accept everything the GCs are trying to impose on us?

I will stand with you and all the TC's for the best deal we can get under the rules set by the UN and the EU under True Federation and True Democracy. Is there another choice VP, because the only way you can ask for special "safeguards" is only if you want to declare the TC community as a "MINORITY", because under political equality which is what we are demanding, we will not be regarded as a minority, but equal to everyone else, just like they have in Switzerland or do you want to tell the EU, "screw with your rules and regulations, because we will not go along with your demands on Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws but we still want to be part of EU regardless, and if you do not like our demands, tough shit". Give me some solid argument rather than your burnt out excuses and telling me that I only support what the GC's want. The GC's will not go for Confederation or worse, two independent states. What I want is what all of Europe has with respect to Democracy, Human rights and International Laws. The bigger question I have for you is, why don't you want the same for our people what rest of Europe has.?

Had the AP 2004 passed, Cyprus will not even be in the EU today, because the new United Cyprus would have had to re-apply for membership and with all the Undemocratic and Human Rights violations instituted in the AP 2004, the EU would never had allowed United Cyprus to join, which at that point, there would have been an agreed partition for each state to make their own application for EU membership. At that point, I doubt the outcome would have been good either for the TC's and the GC's. Now everyone Cypriot is in the EU, and all there is left, is to bring the rest of the country into the EU, which is the part that is going to help the TC's much more than the GC's. The ball is in your court VP. The question remains to be answered is, do you want to play or do you want to sit on the sidelines and watch the GC's play without you.?

Total and utter rubbish, the AP was indexed to the entry of the whole island into the EU as one country 1st May 2004.

It is not rubbish. We had discussed this in lengths a while back and if I can find the letter from the EU, I will post it. The EU was entering the RoC into the EU club under that name alone and not something that was being created. Don't forget, that the AP changed from AP I to AP V from the time RoC was already accepted. By the time 2004 came around, AP V would no longer have been the RoC, therefore the whole deal would have collapsed and the EU would have had good argument to make for not allowing the island into the EU Club under it's new name.