OK, let me answer your post.
Kikapu wrote:Let me say this from the beginning, that you VP, with your attitude, is never going to be able to live with anyone where you are a numerical minority in a Democratic country, therefore, I recommend that you get your own country to live and run, but I'm afraid that will not be in Cyprus. If you want to live with all Cypriots, then you will need to adopt to how everyone else manages to live in a Democratic countries all over the world regardless of their numerical size. This was not meant to be as an insult to you, but an answer to your overall problem accepting your numerical minority status.
I knew about you when I wrote the above, but in all honesty, I did not expect you to agree with the main point I was trying to make. This is what you said;
Viewpoint wrote:As you know I was born and raised in a democratic country and lived there for 30 years, now for the past 16 years I have been residing in the TRNC which may be unrececognized but that doesnt mean it is not democratic. I have gotten my own country by returning to this island I truely believe that this is my country and where I belong and I aint going nowhere. I will not go back to being a minority in a democratic country as I was in the UK because that was never really mine whereas this island is. I dont for one second expect you to understand.
As for the north being "Democratic" which I stated the same in one of my previous post to you which was meant to be a figure of speech to make my point to you at that time, is really far from the truth. Anytime strings are pulled on the north by a foreign nation, it is no longer a Democracy, but a "Puppet on a String". We have already agreed from before, that what keeps the north from disappearing in 5 minutes, is the 40,000 TT and not because it has any foundations of any other state, recognised or not. Gaza Strip and the West Bank have more of a foundation as a "state" for the Palestinians than the north, despite they too being unrecognized. The difference is, that they are on their own land, what's left of it that is and are fighting to save from losing anymore. You cannot make the same claim in the north, can you.?
The reason why I said that you will never become a numerical majority anywhere, including Cyprus, or in your case, the "trnc", is because if things remain as they are, in about 25 years, if not sooner, you will become a numerical minority in the government and the settlers will become numerical majority. I know you like to think yourself as a Turk, but that's because of your own insecurities. You are a lost person VP, just like all of you NeoPartitionist. You believe that the Turks will accept you as one of their own and not see you as a numerical minority, even a foreign minority down the road once your usefulness is exhausted. You live in a dream world that the rich Turks will come to the "trnc" to marry the TC's so that you can become amongst the elites living in the "trnc" or in Turkey. According to my TC brother in law, who upto very recently was very pro settlers as you still are, claims that most of the settlers in the north from Turkey now are bunch of "cingane" or Gypsies, or translated into an American phrase, "white trash", because those from Ankara, Istanbul, Antalya, Izmir and other developed cities in Turkey are not coming to the north anymore.
You as a TC is already a numerical minority in the north to the settlers, but that does not bother you, because you are the numerical majority in the government. This is the only thing that matters to you. You are willing to walk away from Cyprus as an indigenous person to the island, as long as you have all the political power as a numerical minority in the overall population in the north. Does this not sound like South Africa during the Apartheid to you. Well guess what, it does and that did not last for ever and neither will in the north, because your cousins, the settlers will not only be numerical majority in the north as they are now, but they will also become the numerical majority in the government, then you will see how they will treat you and your children and your grand children. Face it VP, we TC's are a numerical minority, will always be a numerical minority. It is written, therefore it will be so.! You are only cocky today, because you have all the Political Power as a numerical minority. You will be singing a different tune, once you will be given the scraps by the settlers, if you are lucky that is.
Viewpoint wrote: The German Swiss represent 40% where as there is a automatic balance of 60% of a combined effort than can be used to stop any legislation that would in effect be to the detrement of the other communities. That aside they do not share our history or mistrust they have developed and work as a confederation which you are totally against and closer to what the TCs side wants. Our 80% 20% balance does not allow us this opportunity, to say hey hold we dont really feel this is right and will cause our state hardship and problems. You cna surely see the difference and the dialema we are faced with due to the fact that we do not trust GCs to do the right thing by us, so we therefore need safety buffers to ensure they do not exploit the majority advantage against us.
Sorry, but the Swiss Germans are 69% majority and that's the way it is. It does not mean they control every one's lives, they do not and they cannot. They did however use their voting power to block entering the EU in a referendum...twice.! It did not mean that the other ethnic Swiss groups were 100% behind being in the EU either. That's the way the cookie crumples sometimes, so the political fight goes no in the future to try one more time....maybe! No body suffered because Switzerland did not enter the EU. The majority felt it was not for them at this particular time in their history. Welcome to Democracy, even in a True Confederation.
I do not have a problem with Confederation, if all the ingredients are there. The sun rises in the East and sets in the West like any other country, so there is no problem with Confederation, and having lived in one for a while, you can't tell anything different in a day to day living. There are 26 Cantons in Switzerland and all the Cantons joined the Union one by one over the last 900 years. Each Canton brought their land and people to the Union. We don't have a seperate lands for the GC's and the TC's in Cyprus. It is all mixed and the fact that it is divided now through force, does not make the north TC land and the South a GC land, no matter how much all you propagandist want to claim that the north is TC and the South is GC, because it is not and the whole world knows about it, except for you people. In any case, both Soyer and Talat recently stated that they too do not want a Confederation. I wonder what made them see things differently now than before. Perhaps they see that nobody is buying the North is TC and the South is GC, solely.
You go on about the 80%-20% population difference between the GC's and the TC's as being the main problem. How is that a problem in a True Federation. If the majority of the TC's are in the northern state, they pretty much control all the functions of the northern state. Of course, in order to achieve that, the northern state will need to be reduced considerably so to reduce the number of GC's who may want to live amongst you. The TC's control their own destiny as to how many GC's will live amongst them, because chances are, if majority of the 200,000 GC refugees do not own land in the reduced northern state, they will not be coming on their own, and you will not be violating any one's Human Rights, because they will mostly move to their properties in the new enlarged Southern state. So you see VP, you can have your "own" state and the majority of the state powers that will go with it, so I do not know what is your worry. "Your" state will also have 50% of the power in the upper house, and if a simple majority is needed in the upper house, then as long as no member of the senate from the northern state in the upper house consents to the passage of the bill, it will not pass. This is Democracy and political equality, so stop with this ridiculous fear mongering. The lower house will be different of course, but once again, that's the way the cookie crumples in a Democracy, but all your protection will be secured in the upper house. Once again, in order to achieve that, you will need to reduce the size of the land in the north. It will also be cheaper to compensate those GC's who may want to sell up and remain in the southern state. Even if they keep their properties in the north, so what. They will more than likely live and vote in the south.
The power sharing plan proposed by Kifeas at one time, I doubt Kifeas will support that plan anymore, given the unreasonable demands made by Talat up to this point. He will let the TC's use their 50% power in the upper house as a way to reject any proposal that may be made by the lower house that they may not agree with. Of course, this is all based on how you are going to get the majority of the TC's to live in the northern state to keep all the power in the hands of the TC's in the north. This is where you need to compromise and give back most of the land that belongs to the GC's and this will solve all your problems as far as whether you can trust the GC's or not. I'm sure they too do not trust your intentions, so there you go. If this is too much for you to bear, then it will not be much different if an agreed partition was to take place. My guess is, you will end up with the same amount of land, but then you can be an independent country and recognised. I do doubt however, that your new country will be in the EU, but since you don't like the EU anyway, it will be a blessing for you. Therefore either way, substantial land will need to be given back, whether you agree with is or not. It will be a hard pill to swallow, but that's the way the cookie will crumple I'm afraid.
Viewpoint wrote:We do need that protection/safeguard against that male employer or the bigot because those people do exist, you have really answered your own question we see the GCs as a threat portrayed by the male employer or bigot so that's why safeguards are vital because being exposed and left to the mercy of those people who can if they wish make us our lives a misery is not what so accepting that we are a minority with community rights is better than the alternative of being dominated by GCs who will wish to convert the whole island into a GC state run by GCs for GCs with us thrown in as just another minority without safeguards and no community rights.
Then you can ask for all the protections you want as a "Minority Community" from the Federal Constitution to protect you. These protection will be in there regardless for the protections of all Cypriots, therefore you will not receive anything much more than of what should already be there. You will most certainly will not get anything that is going to violate any one's Democratic and Human Rights, or is this your kind of protection that you want to ask for. You can ask for it, but be prepared for the answer, either from the GC's or the EU itself. My guess is, that you will be disappointed. Don't forget VP, we are now post 2004 era. Perhaps had Denktash and Makarios dealt with the BBF idea at it's conception back in the 70's, you might just gotten what you are asking for, and of course you came close to it one more time in 2004 with the AP. Today we have to deal with the realities on the ground and not what is on your "wish list". Again, let me take you back to the north state, which will be almost all TC's with all the power in your own state, providing substantial land is returned back to the GC's. You can demand proportionate employment in the government jobs and that will be a fair request, atleast for the next number of years. What you don't want to do is, limit the potential of more TC's being hired in the future into the Federal government jobs because we have agreed on a ceiling. This will only hurt those TC's to be hired in good government jobs. There is always a danger, so be careful in what you ask for, because you might just end up getting it, then you may not like it in the end.
Viewpoint wrote:Who decides who is most qualified for the job? How do you guarantee that the best man for the job is picked? This is where you have trusted the majority 100% to do the right thing, what if they don't? what will be your fall back? how will ensure they do? and what preventative measure or as I say safeguards would you have in place to ensure that the majority do in fact pick the right man or are forced by those safeguards you feel are unnecessary.
If all perform to the "democratic" guide book you subscribe to then the safeguards I ask for will in a short while become redundant but why not allow me the guarantee net to ensure nothing goes wrong?
All good questions VP. I tell you what. Why don't you device a system of fairness that a GC person will be given in the north when they apply for a government or private sector jobs, and we will put that in the Federal constitution as long as it does not violate anyone's Democratic and Human Rights, so get to work and give it to Talat to negotiate on our behalf. Once anything is put into the Federal Constitution, it will be very difficult to remove them if they should become "redundant" as you put it. Where would be the incentive to even make them redundant. Does the 13 points ring a bell with you.!
Viewpoint wrote:Its not the one man one vote that is the problem its the representation and the effect of that represenation in the law/decision making mechanism of the country which s the important issue here. 80MPs from the south and 20MPs from the north can be elected, the key is how the balance will be struck can to 80MPs in the south make decisions for the north state on their own or do you at least need 1 MP vote form the north state?
One decision that comes to mind is to stop all trade with Turkey or to not allow international acceptance of universities in the north. you know full well that if power is totally handed over to hands that can abuse it, then abuse they will there has to be a balance between TC and GC MPs that will not allow senasative issues to be manipulated to the detrement or against the will of the other state.
I have already explained to you about the 50% power of the upper house, so no, the 80 MP's from the south is what will be in the lower house and NO, they will not be passing laws that effect the north or south states. They will be dealing in Federal matters. Federal Government does not get involved in state matters as long as it's own Federal Constitution is not violated by the states. simple really. Individual states will have their own state house of representatives that will look after the interest of their own state. In another words, the decisions by the representatives from California has no bearing how a state of Nevada is run. The same will be in Cyprus. Federal upper and lower houses will deal with foreign matters and internal matters that will effect all citizens and not one over the other. Even then, you will have equal representatives in the upper house to block anything that you do not want. Traditionally the vice President breaks the tie deadlock in the upper house, and we can do the same here, and this is why I would insist on the vice president and the president to run together from different ethnic groups, so that one ethnic group does not have all the power. So there are ways to get around problems if you look for them. You are not looking for them, because you have tasted the AP and it is hard to accept anything else. You better get use to it, VP, if you really want peace in Cyprus for your children, because the AP would have been repeat of 1960 Constitution, and look how well that one worked out......not.!
Viewpoint wrote:Its not the one man one vote that is the problem its the representation and the effect of that represenation in the law/decision making mechanism of the country which s the important issue here. 80MPs from the south and 20MPs from the north can be elected, the key is how the balance will be struck can to 80MPs in the south make decisions for the north state on their own or do you at least need 1 MP vote form the north state?
One decision that comes to mind is to stop all trade with Turkey or to not allow international acceptance of universities in the north. you know full well that if power is totally handed over to hands that can abuse it, then abuse they will there has to be a balance between TC and GC MPs that will not allow senasative issues to be manipulated to the detrement or against the will of the other state.
"Its not the one man one vote that is the problem"
I think I will frame the above quote from you on my wall.!!
OK, I have given you the answers to your 80MP's V 20MP's. Nothing has changed, so please refer back to what I have already written. The only time you are going to have a problem, if today's division lines remain as state lines, then you are going to have a problem even having 10MP's from the north seated in the upper house, then yes, I agree with you that we are toast, so the only safeguard I can recommend to you, is to reduce the north state where most GC's land will no longer be in there, therefore they will not be coming to live with you. How much land to be given back will be like asking how long is a piece of string, but I'm sure it can be worked out. The north state can be more than one large piece also if it makes it easier to maintain the maximum TC presence in those areas. It could also be a piece or two in the south. There could be few large pieces, just like the islands of Hawaii. You can decide how you want to play this, because I can already hear you screaming that I'm trying to break up the TC's from living in one solid state. I'm just thinking out loud for you as to how we can keep those MP's in the upper house all TC's and maintain the 50% power in that house which will give the TC's a say so in decision makings.
You keep bringing up this issue about Turkey being banned by the Cyprus government and that it will cause economic hardship on the TC's. Why would that happen, unless Turkey and Cyprus get into a big fight over the oil fields let just say. What happens if a Turkish destroyer was to sink a Cypriot oil platform. Do you expect the relationships to continue as if nothing happened. Who side will you be on on this issue, Turkey or your own country of Cyprus. This question from you always disturbs me a bit, because it sounds like you are more interested what happens to Turkey that your own country. Besides, you will be able to block it in the upper house, but don't expect the GC's to thank you for it. Then you will be seen as a traitor for choosing a foreign country over your own.
The Universities will be credited on equal basis regardless which state they are in. I don't even think it will be the Federal Governments business, but rather it will be up to each state to decide how the schools should be credited. If it's not up to par, then the foreign countries might just refuse to accept them, because it may not meet their own standards. You worry too much over nothing sometimes.
Viewpoint wrote:The important issue here is who is going to make the laws that govern both states? the balance that will be struck up is the key, feel free to put forward your own idea or do you accept what Kifeas and I agreed on whereby on predetermined issues a certain number of GC and TC votes have to be obtained to pass the bill.
Already answered several times. Please refer back.
Here is what Kifeas proposed, but as I said, I doubt very much if he any longer will support this plan. I believe that was designed for a Unitary state and not for Federation. The north will have it's own 50% in the upper house, so it make Kifeas's plan redundant, don't you think.?
If we have a house of 100 members (80 GCs plus 20 TCs) and decisions are taken on simple majority, it means that at least any 51 members out of the above 100 members will have to approve it. However, in order to qualify as simple majority, at least 4 (or 6) of the votes must come (included in the 51 votes needed) from the 20 TCs (20% or 30% of the TC members,) and at least 16 (or 24) of the votes must come from (included in the 51votes needed) from the 80 GCs.
For example we can have the following combination for simple majority to qualify.
I take a special case example that needs 30% minimum from each side.
Case 1:
6 TCs plus 45 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)
Case 2:
20 TCs plus 31 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)
Case 3:
5 TCs plus 46 GCs equals 51 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)
Case 4:
1 TC plus 80 GCs equals 81 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)
Viewpoint wrote:Thats why we are in favor of a 2 state solution to avoid all the discrimiantion and disguised persecution you would see in a unitary state as experienced during 1963 to 1974. The only probem here is the risk of GCs swamping the north state purely for the right to rule thus electing GC MPs which could be countered by having a safety net of an pre agreed quota, hopefully this will also become redundant but the safeguard would be a just in case the majority do try to exploit this avenue.
I think your 2 state solution means different than anyone else's. You mean 2 sovereign independent states as in "virgin birth" concept.! Anyway, as I said, give the GC's enough land back, so that there is very little left that they own very much under the control of the "TC state", and your problems are solved.
Viewpoint wrote:Arent the Scots or Welsh indigenous to the UK? Scots have their own kingdom/state flag Parliament and currency, they have developed trust and a realtionships over many years we have not. We are noway to be classed as the Indians who went to the UK and never ruled or owned it, nor have they had our history so this comparision I will never accept, so dont even go there.
The Scots and the Welsh are indigenous to their respective countries, Scotland and Wales and to the UK, that is correct. Yes, the Scots do have their parliaments, currency, flags, language and so on. From the above list, the only thing you can compare yourself with the Scots is, that you are indigenous to Cyprus as a Cypriot, which you refuse to recognise, therefore you even eliminate that for yourself. You have nothing else common with the Scots and the Welsh. You don't have your own country other than Cyprus if you accept being a Cypriot and the UK. Anything else is non and void and it does not count to bag of beans, so I'm afraid you have chosen a very wrong example to associate yourself with. And one more thing. The Welsh and the Scots do not ask to be treated differently than anyone else in the UK, even though they are a numerical minorities, just like you were as a British born TC, but you already told us, that you can not accept being a numerical minority in the UK. Do you hear the Scots and the Welsh bitching about their status in the UK. I don't, despite Sean Connery wanting Scotland to secede from the Union, which they may have the right to do so. Where is your own Indigenous country VP to secede from the union. Well, you don't have one other than Cyprus, and only if you want to be a Cypriot, and if you don't, the only other place left for you, will be the UK. Take your pick.
Viewpoint wrote:Yes I accept the 4;1 as a safeguard to ensure that we to get a look in, surely you must see why I want this, the GCs can use their majorty block vote to send a GC singer every year if they wish even if the TC singer/song is much much better, lets hope that you are right and they are democratic and always pick the best song and singer which would again make this demand redundant but why not have a safety net? if they choose a GC singer for 3 years in a row then surely you to must agree that we should protect our right to be chosen as well. Why do you expect us to leave things ot chance?
I'm sure the GC's would love to divide everything at 4:1 ratio, including land, government jobs and power share in the upper house as well as at the lower house. Yes, lets make all the TC singers sit at home for 4 years and only send them once every 5 years. That should help them with their careers, no matter how stupid the Eurovision song contest may be. The GC's already agreed to alternating presidency also, therefore a TC once every 5 years for one year, or once every 25 years for 5 years. I can't wait to see how this will work out.!
Anything you did not understand, please let me know. I also did say that I was going to get this post to you by New Years Day, and being an American as well as Cypriot and British, I'm going to use my home state of California's time for today to get this post to you on time. I still have about 8 hours left for their New Years day.!
I know you are going to say this is 101% GC, even though 100% is the maximun you can use in this context, but this is how any fair minded person living in the Western Democratic country will see it also, so blame 2 Billion people for thinking the same way as I do, because this is not a GC thing only, but it is not the NeoPartitionist thing, which your numbers is as significant as a flea on an elephant's butt against the 2 Billion people living under True Democracy around the world today. Time for all you backward people to move into the 21st Century, and a Happy New Year to you all.!
