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Guarantee and EU are “Everything!”

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Re: Guarantee and EU are “Everything!”

Postby DT. » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:40 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
MrH wrote:Guarantees and EU are “Everything!”

Some light appears to have delightfully shed upon the true stumbling point in the search for an amicable Cyprus Solution.

Both leaders have expressed their ultimate DIFFERENCES. Where, the Turkish Cypriots believe that Turkey must be a Guarantor country of the new Cyprus unified state, while the Greek Cypriots believe that being a member of the EU is enough and the section involving Guarantorship can not be included in a Cyprus solution!

However, and according to “the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mehmet Ali Talat”, as Turkey is not part of the European Union, on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots, the EU can not be considered an acceptable Guarantor – not until at least Turkey becomes a FULL EU Member state.


Well, there we have it – Deadlock!

What's next?
Is that it?


There is only one solution, if you TCs will insist on Turkish unilateral invasion guarantees on an EU member state. This solution is for you to withdraw to an area equal to 3% of Cyprus, and then we will give you partition to do whatever you like with your area. On our side, as I explained to you many times, we will build around this area a 10 meter wall with electrocuting cables on top, and we will pretend that this area does not exist for us.


Kifeas,

Last time it was 8 meter wall, and now it's gone up to 10 meters and an electrocuting wire fence on top.!

Jesus Kifeas, how the hell do you expect Bananiot to go and have "Kelle" with Halil in the north from then on.! :lol:


Simple. He'll go over just before the wall is built.
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Re: Guarantee and EU are “Everything!”

Postby Kifeas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:41 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
MrH wrote:Guarantees and EU are “Everything!”

Some light appears to have delightfully shed upon the true stumbling point in the search for an amicable Cyprus Solution.

Both leaders have expressed their ultimate DIFFERENCES. Where, the Turkish Cypriots believe that Turkey must be a Guarantor country of the new Cyprus unified state, while the Greek Cypriots believe that being a member of the EU is enough and the section involving Guarantorship can not be included in a Cyprus solution!

However, and according to “the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mehmet Ali Talat”, as Turkey is not part of the European Union, on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots, the EU can not be considered an acceptable Guarantor – not until at least Turkey becomes a FULL EU Member state.


Well, there we have it – Deadlock!

What's next?
Is that it?


There is only one solution, if you TCs will insist on Turkish unilateral invasion guarantees on an EU member state. This solution is for you to withdraw to an area equal to 3% of Cyprus, and then we will give you partition to do whatever you like with your area. On our side, as I explained to you many times, we will build around this area a 10 meter wall with electrocuting cables on top, and we will pretend that this area does not exist for us.


Kifeas,

Last time it was 8 meter wall, and now it's gone up to 10 meters and an electrocuting wire fence on top.!

Jesus Kifeas, how the hell do you expect Bananiot to go and have "Kelle" with Halil in the north from then on.! :lol:


He will have to swim around, but only if he is a good swimmer since the wall and the electric fence will extent 3 kilometers into the sea.
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Re: Guarantee and EU are “Everything!”

Postby Kikapu » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:52 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
MrH wrote:Guarantees and EU are “Everything!”

Some light appears to have delightfully shed upon the true stumbling point in the search for an amicable Cyprus Solution.

Both leaders have expressed their ultimate DIFFERENCES. Where, the Turkish Cypriots believe that Turkey must be a Guarantor country of the new Cyprus unified state, while the Greek Cypriots believe that being a member of the EU is enough and the section involving Guarantorship can not be included in a Cyprus solution!

However, and according to “the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mehmet Ali Talat”, as Turkey is not part of the European Union, on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots, the EU can not be considered an acceptable Guarantor – not until at least Turkey becomes a FULL EU Member state.


Well, there we have it – Deadlock!

What's next?
Is that it?


There is only one solution, if you TCs will insist on Turkish unilateral invasion guarantees on an EU member state. This solution is for you to withdraw to an area equal to 3% of Cyprus, and then we will give you partition to do whatever you like with your area. On our side, as I explained to you many times, we will build around this area a 10 meter wall with electrocuting cables on top, and we will pretend that this area does not exist for us.


Kifeas,

Last time it was 8 meter wall, and now it's gone up to 10 meters and an electrocuting wire fence on top.!

Jesus Kifeas, how the hell do you expect Bananiot to go and have "Kelle" with Halil in the north from then on.! :lol:


He will have to swim around, but only if he is a good swimmer since the wall and the electric fence will extent 3 kilometers into the sea.


Now you have gone too bloody far Kifeas. I object to such cruel and unusual punishment on anyone who may want to just have a "kelle" with Halil. Where is your humanity man.!
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Re: Guarantee and EU are “Everything!”

Postby DT. » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:53 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
MrH wrote:Guarantees and EU are “Everything!”

Some light appears to have delightfully shed upon the true stumbling point in the search for an amicable Cyprus Solution.

Both leaders have expressed their ultimate DIFFERENCES. Where, the Turkish Cypriots believe that Turkey must be a Guarantor country of the new Cyprus unified state, while the Greek Cypriots believe that being a member of the EU is enough and the section involving Guarantorship can not be included in a Cyprus solution!

However, and according to “the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mehmet Ali Talat”, as Turkey is not part of the European Union, on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots, the EU can not be considered an acceptable Guarantor – not until at least Turkey becomes a FULL EU Member state.


Well, there we have it – Deadlock!

What's next?
Is that it?


There is only one solution, if you TCs will insist on Turkish unilateral invasion guarantees on an EU member state. This solution is for you to withdraw to an area equal to 3% of Cyprus, and then we will give you partition to do whatever you like with your area. On our side, as I explained to you many times, we will build around this area a 10 meter wall with electrocuting cables on top, and we will pretend that this area does not exist for us.


Kifeas,

Last time it was 8 meter wall, and now it's gone up to 10 meters and an electrocuting wire fence on top.!

Jesus Kifeas, how the hell do you expect Bananiot to go and have "Kelle" with Halil in the north from then on.! :lol:


He will have to swim around, but only if he is a good swimmer since the wall and the electric fence will extent 3 kilometers into the sea.


Now you have gone too bloody far Kifeas. I object to such cruel and unusual punishment on anyone who may want to just have a "kelle" with Halil. Where is your humanity man.!


Tell that to the poor lamb
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:21 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
miltiades wrote:And you are convinced that a solution without including Turkey as a guarantor would stop Turkey from intervening !!!
We think she may be reluctant to do so in view of her record on .....human rights !!!



Turkey could guarantee the north state only because if things should erupt between the 2 communities the TCs now have definate borders to which they can withdraw, this can be the agreement until a time when of if Turkey enters the EU.


Why the north state? Is the north state going to become of your exclusive property or exclusive ownership? Is this what you understand from a BBF solution, that one area will be of the ownership of the TCs and another of the GCs? If this is the case, then your ownership area should not be more than 3% of Cyprus!


Kifeas this is a compromise, as GCs are cocnerned about Turkey right to intervene in all aprt os Cyprus then surely this could be considered a compromise until Turkey enters the EU, this would also helps towards your supporting her to maintain her EU perspective.


As I said to you, we do not accept unilateral invasion rights anywhere in our country, by any country, and the north state will also be part of our country, and if you think we are intransigent, you may go to the UN, the EU or any court you wish and complain that we are intransigent and non-compromising! This is the 21st century in which Cyprus is a member of the EU and the EMU in which we co-decide with another 27 and 15 countries on the future of the EU and the future of the EU’s monetary policy, and we no longer are in the middle ages in which we were under the patronage of the Ottoman Empire. We have left behind and gone over the ottoman era and the middle ages. If your community is missing the ottoman era, you may go to Turkey to have plenty of it, with the “guarantees” your motherland Turkey offers to the rights of its Kurdish citizens.


So in short you are saying GCs have changed and will not repeat the mistakes of the past because of the EU and that this guarantee is not because it will be redundant due to your good behaviour. Why not allow us this luxury if you have confidence in your and the EUs actions? to us it appears to be a move to remove our life jacket after which you will find ways to make us drown, the EU do not have the mechanism to step in and without Turkey in the EU this sort of agreement will leave us to exposed to matters of chance, you will not get TCs support which is 50% weight you need to find a solution.
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Postby MrH » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:54 pm

Miltiades Wrote:
Mr H , the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people , and this includes a respectable number of T/Cs , do not wish to accept that a foreign invader and an occupier of a part of their island can be justifiably be given rights of guarantor . Frankly my dear Turkey IS NOT trusted by the huge majority of Cypriots.
Cyprus is and will remain an independent island , the home of all Cypriots , and we Cypriots have had a bellyful of Turkey masquerading as a saviour of the T/Cs , she is nothing of the sort , I would also include Greece here by also calling her a foreign power involved in the Cyprus problem .
Enough is enough , the Cypriot people want independence from either of the two foreign powers .


Miltiades,
All this might be the "Trust Worthy" way of dealing with an island's political situation according to the EU and the GCs, but as you know the historical events of the Cyprus problem is a little different compared to other conflict areas around the world!

Ultimately Miltiades, if we are banking on a deal without Turkish Gurantorship, at least for the north, then a solution is just not joing to materialise - not unless Turkey becomes a full EU Member state, then the TCs would accept your suggestion of the EU being a suitable G-Power.

I say that, not because I am ignoring your call in your post, but because that's how it's always been, that's how Turkey sees it and that's how the international community sees it according to the previous Annan Plan 5.

Of course, if the UN saw it your way, then why did they strongly advocate the Annan Plan?

Also, there's another very important point regarding Gurantor Power, and that is the Two Soverign British Bases. Let's say that a deal is struck in Cyprus they way that you've suggested, then, after a few years, where will the two British bases legally stand? Exactly, the island of Cyprus would be able to, legally, in every way, order the REMOVAL of the two British bases. So what am I saying? Perhaps the real culprits of the Greek Cypriot Solution idea are actually the British and not the Turks. Perhaps it suites British interests to partition and, or sign an Annan Plan and not ONLY Turkey? This may be a conspiracy theory of some kind, but are the two British Bases Not stationed in Cyprus as the "Republic of Cyprus"? But only as part of British Territory?

I believe that we are truly at a deadlock on this issue, where any outcome of the peace talks will either be a Federal plan similar to the Annan Plan, or Partition at an acceptable level for all. It may not be ideal for the GCs, or the TCs (the ones that you've mentioned!), but we must view the sensitivities of all parties in a compromising manner, seriously - otherwise Cyprus will never see any Solution until Turkey becomes a full EU member state.

If that should be the case, then I would say that the GCs (if a solution should come about after Turkey becomes an EU member state) would ultimately be at a loss in their eyes as Turkey would automatically become a Guarantor power to the island anyway (because it would always favour the Turkish Cypriots), but at a time when bad sentiments would reach its highest because of the continued isolation of the Turkish Cypriots until then.

These are the serious scenarios that Christofias is facing at the moment, and I know for certain that he feels slightly cornered because Turkey is not an EU member state, that Turkey does not "really" need a Cyprus solution yet because it is premature (politically) until it is ready for the EU. I would even say that Turkey would actually prefer a no solution until its EU process is complete!
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Postby DT. » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:00 pm

MrH wrote:Miltiades Wrote:
Mr H , the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people , and this includes a respectable number of T/Cs , do not wish to accept that a foreign invader and an occupier of a part of their island can be justifiably be given rights of guarantor . Frankly my dear Turkey IS NOT trusted by the huge majority of Cypriots.
Cyprus is and will remain an independent island , the home of all Cypriots , and we Cypriots have had a bellyful of Turkey masquerading as a saviour of the T/Cs , she is nothing of the sort , I would also include Greece here by also calling her a foreign power involved in the Cyprus problem .
Enough is enough , the Cypriot people want independence from either of the two foreign powers .


Miltiades,
All this might be the "Trust Worthy" way of dealing with an island's political situation according to the EU and the GCs, but as you know the historical events of the Cyprus problem is a little different compared to other conflict areas around the world!

Ultimately Miltiades, if we are banking on a deal without Turkish Gurantorship, at least for the north, then a solution is just not joing to materialise - not unless Turkey becomes a full EU Member state, then the TCs would accept your suggestion of the EU being a suitable G-Power.

I say that, not because I am ignoring your call in your post, but because that's how it's always been, that's how Turkey sees it and that's how the international community sees it according to the previous Annan Plan 5.

Of course, if the UN saw it your way, then why did they strongly advocate the Annan Plan?

Also, there's another very important point regarding Gurantor Power, and that is the Two Soverign British Bases. Let's say that a deal is struck in Cyprus they way that you've suggested, then, after a few years, where will the two British bases legally stand? Exactly, the island of Cyprus would be able to, legally, in every way, order the REMOVAL of the two British bases. So what am I saying? Perhaps the real culprits of the Greek Cypriot Solution idea are actually the British and not the Turks. Perhaps it suites British interests to partition and, or sign an Annan Plan and not ONLY Turkey? This may be a conspiracy theory of some kind, but are the two British Bases Not stationed in Cyprus as the "Republic of Cyprus"? But only as part of British Territory?

I believe that we are truly at a deadlock on this issue, where any outcome of the peace talks will either be a Federal plan similar to the Annan Plan, or Partition at an acceptable level for all. It may not be ideal for the GCs, or the TCs (the ones that you've mentioned!), but we must view the sensitivities of all parties in a compromising manner, seriously - otherwise Cyprus will never see any Solution until Turkey becomes a full EU member state.

If that should be the case, then I would say that the GCs (if a solution should come about after Turkey becomes an EU member state) would ultimately be at a loss in their eyes as Turkey would automatically become a Guarantor power to the island anyway (because it would always favour the Turkish Cypriots), but at a time when bad sentiments would reach its highest because of the continued isolation of the Turkish Cypriots until then.

These are the serious scenarios that Christofias is facing at the moment, and I know for certain that he feels slightly cornered because Turkey is not an EU member state, that Turkey does not "really" need a Cyprus solution yet because it is premature (politically) until it is ready for the EU. I would even say that Turkey would actually prefer a no solution until its EU process is complete!


Why is it so difficult to understand that Turkey will not join as long as there is a Cyprus problem and not the other way round?
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Postby MrH » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:34 pm

DT Wrote:
Why is it so difficult to understand that Turkey will not join as long as there is a Cyprus problem and not the other way round?


This is where all fails DT. The Cyprus issue is not a prerequisite or part of the Copenhagen Criteria for Turkish EU Entry. It's a Desired scenario, as it was before the GC Controlled Republic of Cyprus was allowed to join, unopposed by Turkey - which, you have to admit, could of, but Erdogan and Talat chose not to!

However, I will admit that Cyprus can Veto Turkish EU entry, this is obviously a power Cyprus (GC Controlled) now has to the mistakes of Turkey from 1997 to 2004, but I don't believe Cyprus would. Why? As it would then, display all of its political cards and probably open a complete new set of worms for the EU.

It's a very awkward scenario DT, one that I would not favour if I were a politician on either side!

So, where does that leave the Cyprus situation? Where will it leave the Turkish Cypriots of Northern Cyprus? The GCs are always very quick to cut Turkey's throat whenever possible, but it's always the Turkish Cypriots who are left to suffer. Shame.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:47 pm

MrH wrote:So, where does that leave the Cyprus situation? Where will it leave the Turkish Cypriots of Northern Cyprus? The GCs are always very quick to cut Turkey's throat whenever possible, but it's always the Turkish Cypriots who are left to suffer. Shame.

You are your own worst enemy by failing to realize all these decades that your only options are to return to Turkey for the full Turkishness or blend in with the rest of the Cypriots and shut up… there is nothing else for you.
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Postby MrH » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:40 pm

Get Real Wrote:
You are your own worst enemy by failing to realize all these decades that your only options are to return to Turkey for the full Turkishness or blend in with the rest of the Cypriots and shut up… there is nothing else for you.


Get Real,
It's always nice to read one of your absorbing comments! I was actually referring to what will happen to the TCs once the GCs vote "No"!

The situation after the Annan Plan "No" vote for th TCs did not materialise into either the Recognition of the TRNC, TCS or the removal of the isolation purely because of the inexperienced handling of the issue by the infamous Talat and Erdogan duo!

I am merely pointing out the obvious sensitivities and Red lines of both of the peoples of Cyprus, and that a "No" vote this time, and what will happen after it, will come as a deep surprise to all GCs. If you think things will remain as they did after the Annan Plan situation, you are seriously a greater fool than I thought.

Just watch how the TCs will respond to the entire Cyprus issue after the CTP are ousted out of the PM elections in 2009 by the UBP and then the Presidential elections of 2010 (in the TRNC). Just watch how a Crisis will emerge, and how the EU will chicken out of all of the present mindset of the GCs on the Cyprus issue.

"Great things always happens in a sudden".

Turkey is not Blackmailing nobody on the issue of Guarantorship, it's just telling you guys the way it is.

It's your call GR.
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