Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

This is the 4th time I post a link to this asking for a comment. You don't reply to it, which makes me think that your purpose here is not to come to an agreement.

The reason why I didn't respond to it earlier is because your solution proposal is too broad. For example.

Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio. Critical matters will require not only a simple majority, but also separate majorities from each state.

You mean in the federal government? If so, what's the proposed specified ratio?

The central government will come from all Cypriots. If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote. We can adopt a system like in the US where president and vice president are elected at the same time and require that they are from different communities.

So in a sense TCs will have 18% vote in the central government, correct? So how's this any different than a unitary state?

One and only citizenship, a united economy, freedom of movement, goods and services. We are all Cypriots first and above all.

I don't know how this is any different than the Annan plan. Yes, each state have their respective citizenships in the Annan plan but as we discussed earlier, these citizenships are nothing more than what they call residency in the US.

So in general what guarantees TC participation in the decision making process in your solution apart from 18% votes that we already have? If you wish you can start a new thread and we start from your suggestions and try to build something.

[redmania]

Equality means all people are equal.

1=1

not

1=4 or 1=10


Think about the statements you have come out with, metecyp. I fully understand that you want equality but what the Annan plan gave you was more than equality, purely on the basis that Cyprus would never be able to veto Turkey's EU membership, because of the way each group is represented.

I am not saying lets not have a federation, what I am saying is that if we have a federation then GC must be fairly represented in Cyprus. At the end of the day he/she who gets more votes wins right (Except Bush)? Or is my perception of democracy different to that of yours. So if the green party gets 20% of the vote do they deserve 50% representation in parliment/senate.

I wonder what Turkey would say if the US/UN told them to accept a plan for a federation in Turkey where the Kurds would have 50% representation in Turkey's parliment. Turkey would not even acccept Kurds having any rights in Iraq!!I will tell you what would happen Turkey would go AWOL, that would never happen in a million years. The same could be said for Scotland and Wales. The same could be said for Catalonia or the Basque region. In my eyes all Cypriots are equal as are all people. Not only do you not want refugees to return but you want to split Cyprus down the middle and enjoy EU membership like the GC's have. Just spit out what you want, because I do not think that you want one Cyprus, with all sides living as equals you want your own country a Turkish part of Cyprus.

You cannot have a federation / country where movement of people is restricted this is akin to Nazi Germany. It cannot happen and should not be allowed by the so called 'Freedom' loving nations. The whole idea is flawed. Yes, we want a fair state, but your not allowed to live here!!! Just how the hell does that work. I live in Britain and If I want to live in Manchester I will, if I want to live in London I will and if I am fancying a change of scene, what the hell I will move to Scotland. That my friend is equality and democracy.

And yes all refugees should be allowed to return. Denying them their property that was illegally seized by force by one of the worlds biggest military forces is a travesty and not only that the property was sold on to fund the illegal invasion and occupation. Maybe you should put the shoe on the other foot and put yourself in a refugees position. And if you have land in the south then I suggest you claim what is rightfully yours.

You see I have no problem of you claiming what is yours. But you take issue to what is mine.

[Piratis]

The reason why I didn't respond to it earlier is because your solution proposal is too broad.

It is broad because these are the principles. If we agree on the principles then there is a chance that by discussing and some compromises we can come to an agreement.
If we can not agree on the principles then there is simply no chance we can agree and we are just waiting our time.

You mean in the federal government? If so, what's the proposed specified ratio?

Yes, the federal government. For personnel, since we are talking about many people the ratio should be about the same of the population. We can round it up to 20% (1/5th). For ministers we can agree that the ratio will be 25% (1/4th).

So in a sense TCs will have 18% vote in the central government, correct? So how's this any different than a unitary state?

How is that different from a federal state? (US, Russia etc). When we say “federation” we mean real federation like it exists in all other countries that have this system. We do not mean confederation, or association of two separate states. If you want confederation or association (the Annan plan was something between those) then simply say so. However, we are not willing to agree for such thing.

I don't know how this is any different than the Annan plan. Yes, each state have their respective citizenships in the Annan plan but as we discussed earlier, these citizenships are nothing more than what they call residency in the US.

For us it is different. If it makes no difference for you then I guess it wouldn’t matter if we call it residency instead of citizenship, right?

So in general what guarantees TC participation in the decision making process in your solution apart from 18% votes that we already have?

TC not only have their voting power (big enough to determine who wins and who losses), but also have a guarantee representation with 25% of ministers and a vice president. Also, they have a veto power for important matters.

---

I still don’t know if you agree with those principles or not.
The main difference (which is a huge one) that I suspect that we have is that not only you want autonomy within your component state, but you also want 50/50 for the central government. If this is true, then what you are asking is beyond the federal, united and democratic principles. (The independence principle is the only one not affected by your comments).

You can’t simply ignore that GC are the 78% of the population.

What I propose is the best achievable solution. This is because such solution, while ideal for non, is still better than current status or permanent partition for both communities.

Think about it, and if you are ready to agree on these principles then we can start a new thread to discuss it a bit deeper. As you see I already incorporated a solution for your concern about TC becoming a minority in north if all GC are allowed to settle freely anywhere in Cyprus. I am not trying to gain as much as possible. I am trying to find an agreement as long as what we can agree will create a united, independent, federal and democratic Cyprus.

If you decided that what I propose is unacceptable for you please make it clear.

[redmania]

That seems very fair to me Piratis.

But I dont think our friends would approve. I think you hit the nail on the head with some of your comments. It appears that all they want is a solution where the government is 50/50 GC and TC and a solution that continues to have us living in segragation. A legal divide of our home, if you will.

[metecyp]

Piratis,
I accept your principles in general, but there're lots of details to talk about.

TC not only have their voting power (big enough to determine who wins and who losses), but also have a guarantee representation with 25% of ministers and a vice president. Also, they have a veto power for important matters.

Can you explain to me how this is any different than RC? In RC, the vice-president was TC and some ministers were TCs as well. One thing that we all need to understand is nobody wants to go back to RC because it didn't work out. So whatever we have, it should be more solid than RC, so I'm open to your suggestions as long as they are more solid than what we have in RC.

[Piratis]

Well, RC is a democracy, so maybe we should adopt dictatorship just to have something different than RC?

More solid than RC for me would be a unitary state without the super privileges of TC. Without the guarantees from Turkey, UK and Greece. Without the British bases. So if you want to talk about something more solid than RC, I have a lot to say too. But I am afraid this will not bring us to an agreement and there is no point of doing it.

[metecyp]

This is a cycle that all our arguments turn into. But I'll explain myself one more time.

Why was RC designed the way it was designed? To make sure that TC minority is represented in the decision process. That's why we had all those priviliges, and vice president being TC and so on. I see some of you still complain about those priviliges, but the fact is that even those priviliges did NOT ensure TC participation in the decision process. The core of the Cyprus problem is exactly this. We want a solution where we can be sure that TCs will be listened, and you can't blame us for that. You weren't kept out of the decision process for 40 years, but we were.

"More solid" doesn't have two different meanings for a TC and a GC as you suggested. More solid means a structure where TC represention is ensured more solidly simply because all the priviliges in RC could not ensure it.

More solid could mean a unitary state for you, if RC couldn't represent GCs. But this is not the case, for 40 years, RC represented GCs more than it was supposed to. It's TCs that need assurances for representation not GCs.

More solid than RC for you cannot mean a unitary state, because unitary state does not ensure TC participation in the decision making process any more than RC does. Therefore, we need some kind of structure (federation) that ensures this.

As I said before, I agree with your general principles, but you need to understand that there has to be a balance between majority ruling and minority being listened.

[Piratis]

If the constitution of Cyprus in 1960 was like the one of France (many minorities there) or other European countries then Makarios wouldn't need to ask for those "13 points" no incident would happen and Turkey would have neither the excuse, nor the right to intervene.
So I insist that more solid for us would be in the exact opposite direction of what you say is more solid for you.

but you need to understand that there has to be a balance between majority ruling and minority being listened.

I understand very well. Cyprus is not the only country in the world. There are 100s of countries with minorities. According to you, in all those countries there is not balance between majority ruling and minority being listened so in Cyprus we have to create something different?

Anyways, I think you still think you can get the Annan plan. Maybe we should wait some months and then come to discuss these things again. Probably is not the right time now.

[tcypriot]

Turkishcypriots are not a minority and will never be.Our political equality is accepted by the whole world except our 'compatriots'!! and their motherland greece.

Even in 1960 republic we were one of the two equal majorities we wont be a minority after 44 years.

Turkishcypriots are not a minority.You can understand this even simply by looking at the money in your wallet.

And you should accept that the majority of the turkishcypriots will never under no circumstance at all costs never accept to be a minority.

Whether you accept that there are two politically equal parties(tc-gc) in cyprus or not.

This is a take it or leave it situation.Dont think the fact you joined eu alone means you can make your dream of a greek cyprus true.

Even if it means all of us migrating we still wont accept to be a minority.Never ever.If we become a 'minortiy' we'll lose and you'll win if TRNC becomes a military base we lose and you also lose so this is better than being a minority.

You should know the famous jewish saying after the Holocaust : "Never Again.."

We turkishcypriots after the genocide that took place between 1963 and 1974 said "Never Again" so if someone tries to take our political equality from our hands again, this time our community will suffer less not more.

Tell those racist dark-bishops especially the most evil ones Pavlos and the Paphos Bishop. tell those anti christs that we do not want their dark money.

[metecyp]

If the constitution of Cyprus in 1960 was like the one of France (many minorities there) or other European countries then Makarios wouldn't need to ask for those "13 points" no incident would happen and Turkey would have neither the excuse, nor the right to intervene.

Yes, and Cyprus would be part of Greece and that would be OK too I guess, since majority rules, right? If you're looking for "excuses" for Turkish intervention, look into your community, not TCs. Greek coup gave the ultimate right for Turkey to intervene. I don't agree with everything that Turkey did after 1974 either, but NOBODY can claim that Turkey had no right to intervene on 20th July. What should have Turkey done? Wait for the Greek junta to take over Cyprus??

Can't you see that those 13 amendments were not innocent? They were meant to reduce TC representation and hence implement and justify Enosis using the same majority rules arguments that you're using right now. Now, I accept that Enosis is not an option anymore, but I still see the same mentality of reducing TCs to minority status with no priviliges whatsoever.

You can't compare France and Cyprus. French people didn't try to make France part of another country. French people did not either consistently try to keep one minority out of the decision process. Cyprus problem is not just a minority problem as you're trying to portray. It's a problem that involves much more than that, it involves Greece and Turkey whether you like it or not. So stop trying to draw parallels between TCs of Cyprus and minorities of other countries, because Cyprus problem is not just a minority problem.

You might think that Annan plan is over and we'll go back to before 1974 with EU. I can assure you that it's not going to happen. Annan plan will be on the table in one form or another.