Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

This is pointless. I mean you are saying that all refugees should return, and TCs cannot own more than 15%. This is basically going back to before 1974. You're asking TCs to accept a situation that caused them to live in ghettos for 11 years with no rights whatsoever. In a sense, you're asking us to ignore the big mistake of supressing TCs for 11 years, and keeping them out of RC for 11 years, and then ignore the biggest mistake of Greek coup and the following Turkish intervention.

Remember what I said is about bizonality in which the majorities of the properties will belong to you.
And yes I agree this will never happen, and I repeat what I said earlier, that the only solution that will satisfy you, the equality you want, the area in which you will be absolute masters, is 2 completely separate states, i.e the taksimidea you had fromthe 60s onwards. You see you leave us no choice.If you want a United Cyprus then cyprus must be UNITED in reality, not 2 completely separate states, so called "united" but separate in disguise.

And I am very sorry but this is what you the TCS actually want, and we have no way to do otherwise.

On the other hand there is some hope that the EU will solve the problem gradually but this will take at least 30 years. And in the end the final outcome will be a UNITARY STATE.

[redmania]

What I find most difficult to comprehend is the fact that Turkish Cypriots go on about equality, 'we want equality'. But with the Annan plan Greek Cypriots were not equal to Turkish Cypriots were they?

To put it bluntly

8GK votes = 1TC vote

Is my maths so bad that I missed this one. Is this equality? Is this justice? Is this fair?

Surely if you wanted equality 1vote=1vote.

You want equality, but in reality you dont, you are getting much more than that and have demanded much more. I wonder how you would feel about the Annan plan if the shoe was on the other foot?

Another topic I have picked up on and I feel needs to be raised is the fact that for over 15 years GC have worked extremely hard to drive Cyprus towards the EU. Which TC helped Cyprus achieve this? Yet, now the pie has landed you not only want a piece which is rightly yours if you are a genuine TC and live in a fair and wholely democratic Cyprus, but you want the whole damn pie!! This shift in opinion is nothing to do with Turkey's or the TC politicians genuine concerns for our country and all its citizens but merely a well orchestrated performance dictated by Ankara. I have to admitt the GC side did not do there interests justice with the Annan plan, but Turkey and the TC politicians have shown themselves to be shrewd, calculating and cunning.

If the Turkish side wanted a genuine democratic and fair Cyprus then it would have happened a long time ago. This mass interest in a resolution has only been instagated since the EU carrot was dangled for all to chase. It has raised the interest in Cyprus greatly, I don't think that Turkey could fool the world again like it has done in the past few weeks. But if the TC are adament for a settlement then we can procede to work out a fair deal that will suit the people of Cyprus needs. The longer you are held under the thumb by Generals in Ankara the longer this situation will continue.

If you want a solution then TC politicians should become more pro-active in the solution and push Turkey to one side, the priority should be on TC interest and not Turkeys, anyone who cant see that Turkey does not care about TC's must be bllind, all they care about is Cyprus' geographical position and the fact that there might be oil and gas. If there was a genuine care for the TC then we would be united as a country with no ties to foreign and external powers.

[metecyp]

What I find most difficult to comprehend is the fact that Turkish Cypriots go on about equality, 'we want equality'. But with the Annan plan Greek Cypriots were not equal to Turkish Cypriots were they?

Equality as in two equal entities (call it state, constituent state, whatever) one representing GCs and one representing TCs, and both of these entities come together to contribute equally to form a federal structure.

Even in the Republic of Cyprus that you love so much, "1 GC vote = 1 TC vote" did not happen. This is simply because there's a system to make sure that minority is represented in the government. Why don't you complain about that? No, you don't complain because RC laws were only implemented for 3 years, and now you have "0 TC vote" in RC. That's why we want something more solid.

We're not "inequality lovers". We don't care to rule the majority as you claim. We just want to make sure that our voices will be heard in the federal Cyprus. How can you blaim us for that after being out of decision process in Cyprus for 40 years?? For 40 years, GCs are making all the decisions with no regard to what TCs think, and now you're telling me that I should accept to be a minority in a unitary state? Who is going to guarantee that I'll be listened?

the priority should be on TC interest and not Turkeys

What makes you believe that TC interests and Turkeys interests are mutually exclusive? I don't always agree with Turkeys policy on Cyprus issue, but even with the strong Turkish presence on the island, some GCs try to equate TCs to a mere minority with no political priviliges whatsoever. I wonder how you would have acted if Turkey was not on the island at all.

You talked about TC politicians pushing Turkey aside and working for peace. Well, GC side didn't give any chance for TC politicians to believe that they are wanted. How can you expect TC politicians to trust GCs and push Turkey aside when we hear expressions of the same mentality (TCs are minority, majority rules, all refugees back, etc.) from the south every day?

[metecyp]

And what I find most difficult to comprehend is how GCs can expect TCs to go even before RC? After 40 years of enjoying full benefits of RC, I would expect GCs to at least accept the rights given to TCs in RC but on the contrary, I hear people even questioning those rights.

Can't you see that even those rights did not assure TC representation in RC? And isn't it only logical to ask something more solid that those rights given in RC?

[MicAtCyp]

And by the way Metecyp since you like so much telling us we want you to return to the 1974 and to the 60s my answer to you is that we don't. We want you to come to the 2004, to the European Cyprus Era as the FACTS are from May 1, 2004. If you don't like it, stay there where you are for another 30 years. Some 2500 TCs already like it though, and live in the free areas. Very soon the number will increase dramatically. And we will then see what excuses will Turkey still have, to continue the occupation of the northern part.
**********************
Sometimes the ordinary people get confused of what the politicians say shouyld be the target.What counts is NOT the political rights. No TC or GC ever complained that the tragedy that hit him was depriving him his political rights. On the contrary both GCs and TCs cry for their human and individual rights. The return of the TCs to the Cyprus Republic and the formation of a TRULY UNITARY STATE should concentrate on the guarantees for the individual rights. And these rights can be guaranteed only inside Europe.The rest is bullshit for the Politicians -its upto them to share what they want to share

[mehmet]

NO.

We do not return to 1974 or the 1960s, where fo you get that idea from. We want better than to live in enclaves and be harrassed by Greek Cypriot security forces. We want better than to be regarded as animals. A member of my family was killed by EOKA during that time, don't try telling me that conditions between 1960-74 is what we aspire for. We want BETTER than 1960 Constitution because 1960 Constitution couldn't stop the position of Turkish Cypriots worsening whilst we had no choice but to live in it. Actually most of my family made the choice to leave Cyprus rather than endure the conditions we were living in so don't you dare try suggesting Constitution was too good for us. If 2,500 Turkish Cypriots live in ROC I am happy for them, there are Greek Cypriots in TRNC too, but I'm not going to count numbers with you to make a point or suggest that all we need to do is live together in one state (let's call it the Turkish Republic of Cyprus as political rights don't matter to you- only individual) in order to resolve problems between us.

[metecyp]

Very soon the number will increase dramatically. And we will then see what excuses will Turkey still have, to continue the occupation of the northern part.

That's what some people said when the borders were first opened. Some people said that TCs will be running like crazy to the south and the north will be empty. It didn't happen and I can assure you that 2500 TCs in the south will not increase dramatically. There will be more TCs getting RC passports, and more TCs will probably work in the south, but not many TCs will choose to live in the south and no TC will accept to go back to RC and further back.

Besides I'm not against GCs and TCs living together. I think it's great that we didn't have no incidents since the opening of the borders. I don't think that there's a problem between ordinary GCs and TCs. That's not what I'm arguing here. What I'm saying is TCs will never agree to be part of a minority community in a GC majority. It's that simple.

If we ever find a solution in Cyprus, it's going to be bizonal, bicommunal federation with equal representation of both entities representing two communities of the island. Anything else is just a dream. I'm just telling you the truth.

[Piratis]

If we ever find a solution in Cyprus, it's going to be bizonal, bicommunal federation with equal representation of both entities representing two communities of the island. Anything else is just a dream. I'm just telling you the truth.

If we ever find a solution in Cyprus, it's going to be one that will create an independent and united Cyprus with respect to human rights and Democracy. That will secure the well being of Cypriots and will create a stable and functioning state that will be able to survive. This doesn't exclude federation, but all the other terms must be met also.

If those conditions are not met we would rather live with a dream than living a nightmare.

I'm just telling you the truth too.

[metecyp]

What I said does not necessarily rule out what you said. It's possible to have it all in a solution, but we need to balance them properly (eg. to make sure that there's bizonality, we need to make sure that TCs are at least majority in their area which conflicts with all refugees back claim). I guess what we don't agree is how to balance all these. I believe that Annan plan was a good balance, I know you don't. That's where we need to work on for a solution, how to balance all these.

[Piratis]

What you are asking for - bizonal federation is something we have accepted long time ago.
Of course that doesn't mean we should accept whatever bizonal """"federation""""" is offered to us, right?

Here are the basic principles we can accept, that meet most of TC demands also:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

This is the 4th time I post a link to this asking for a comment. You don't reply to it, which makes me think that your purpose here is not to come to an agreement.