Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

MicAtCyp,
I believe there is still hope. Some TC like Denctash and his supporters will never change, but some others will soon see that the TRNC is just an obstacle for them and there is no use trying to split the hair called Cyprus when the EU of 450 million is moving toward total integration.
After all is for their own interest to find a solution, and the solution we can accept is not bad at all for them.

The reason they talk like this now is because they think they can get more because they Annan plan promised them so much. When they realize that for a solution to be found they will have to make some generous compromises (like we did) I am sure they will.

[mehmet]

super inflated rights?

We are talking about 1960 Constitution aren't we. Rights that never existed in practice for more than three years. It is a waste of time talking about today if you think we had something then that is even too much for us.[/b]

[tcypriot]

Mehmet, their and our thoughts about a future solution are very different.But years of work to make the two sides get closer to each other created some amount of understanding and a communication possibility between the two sides.Though friend, this understanding is out of sight on the sphere of the moment a political leader sabotages the ongoing process and everyone returns to his previous position before the reconciliation process.Just as Denktas let GCs join the EU alone and just as Papa-Dop invited the gcs to a blatant no in the then forthcoming referandum.The more the number of people whose peacefulness is not affected by the general wind their community is in,the more the two sides will get closer.

[Piratis]

their and our thoughts about a future solution are very different

Here is what we can accept:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211
Can you accept that yes or no???

Greek Cypriots rejected the Annan plan long time before Papadopoulos got elected. This is one of the main reasons Papadopoulos got elected actualy.
So saying that GC said "no" because Papadopoulos said so is incorect.
Greek Cypriots said "no" first and they elected Papadopoulos because Cleredes would say "yes" to just about anything.

[metecyp]

PS.* If bizonality cannot exist without the TCs owning the majority of the properties in their region, then their region CANNOT be more that 15% (The privately owned lands of the TCs before 1974 was 12%+3% evkaf propertry) plus they must exchange all their properties in the South as well as that of Evkaf.If this cannot happen then bi-zonality cannot exist either, simple as that.

So you're saying that there are two types of bizonalities. One is that TCs control more than 15% of the land, but GCs have their rights untouched in the TC controlled area. Second one is TCs own all of the land they control, but this cannot be more than 15% since TCs didn't have more than 15% land before 1974. Correct?

Well, first, I'll tell you that no TC would call 15% land bizonality. That would basically be a small almost ghetto-like area for TCs. So we have the second option where TCs control more than 15% but GCs have their rights intact. And this is what Annan plan is all about. TCs control around 29% but in this 29% land, 18% of the former GC residents can return. That means 5.2% of 29% TC land will be GC. Therefore 'pure' TC land will be 23.9%. On top of this, there won't be any limit on GCs living in Karpasia, I'm sure Karpasia is at least another 5% of the 29% TC land. 'The pure' TC land is 18.9%. So, we're arguing about 3.9% land?

GCs will be taking all the land given by the British from the bases, that accounts for that that extra 3.9% land owned by TCs, don't you think?

I don't know the exact details but on top of all these, I know that GCs that cannot get their property are either compensated or they have the option of renting their property, or selling to a TC. It might be disappointing that not ALL refugees would return, but nobody's right will be touched, everyone will get their property back, or they'll rent it out, or they'll sell it, or they'll be compensated.

If I were in Cyprus, I would invite you to come together and read the plan together in detail. You'll see that it's not an evil plan as the religious leaders claim. It's the best plan that could meet the concerns of both communities.

[MicAtCyp]

Mehmet I repeat,

The 1960 so called "aggreements" were giving you-who were 18% of the population-30% seats in the Parilament, 35% fixed quota on Government jobs,40% in the Army,a Vice President, Veto power, separate municipalities etc etc. Just because the British threatened the GCs "either this or we separate Cyprus in 2 and give half of it to Greece and half to Turkey".

If these were not super-inflated rights, then what were they, de-flated rights?
And by the way why don't you ask your motherland to give even half of these rights to the Kurds?


***************************************

Metecyp,
You asked "correct?". I say no, in both cases the area controlled by the TCs cannot be more than 15%.

For the second case that the TCs own fully the percentage of properties they control we agree, it comes upto 15%

For the other case of the Anan Plan your maths start from the erroneous assumption that the TCs can have control of an area of 15% (because of their total land ownership all over Cyprus) plus an additional percentage according to the number of GCs that would return.This is a basic error that can lead to any percentage from 15 upwards even to the 39% they hold now plus 15% over and above that!!!!
In fact to come up tothe figure of 29%, then the GCs inside that 29% should have equal property to ALL the total property the TCs have in Cyprus! So the GCs would be the main land oweners there (own almost 80%)….

The second mistake in your maths is that 15% itself.If the TC don't exchange fully their properties all over cyprus that 15% is not valid anymore.What is valid is just a fraction of that 15%!

About the land "administered" by the British, perhaps you don't know that the inhabitants inside the British bases do own all their lands and homes.The british just use a small baracks area a few acres wide and thats it.

I am very sorry but you don't seem to know the Anan Plan very well.Remind me to explain you the matter of properties in detail another time.For your information I know every detail of the Anan Plan and I can discuss anything you want using direct quotes from the Plan. You may say what you said about the priests to some "nineler" grandmas who are about to die, but NOT to me.From the very first day after the final plan was released in April I knew exactly what changed from the Plan of 26 Feb, because I spend hundreds of hours studying that one.it just took me another day to study the changes in the April plan.And I can tell you for sure that if Turkey does not get a date in December you and us should spend a whole weekend in churches and camis thanking God because the GCs said no.
if you want to see my views on the Anan plan just one day after it was released go to the thread 1000 times OXI at this link. I think I wrote to other threads in there also…
http://groups.msn.com/CyprusForum/_messageboard.msnw

And by the way go to page 151 of the Plan and tell me what you understand.Answer me as a cypriot-not a TC or a GC just as a Cypriot, do you accept that? And how come this juuuuust slipped in, the last 24 hours without anyone knowing. And by the way there are many more like that, that just slipped in by Turkey the last 24 hours all of them of course against the GCs….

[Piratis]

in both cases the area controlled by the TCs cannot be more than 15%.

We could say that if the 18% of the population owned 15% of the land then this is not fair and should be corrected.

On the other hand the TCs do not treat us in a fair way either. So instead of compromising all the time maybe we should act like they did for the last 30 years and demand the ideal? (after all our ideal is compatible with all international laws, unlike their "ideal").

I am still trying to understand if TC truly want a compromise and a united independent Cyprus or not. If they don't, then probably we can achieve more by asking for more, and not just asking for the minimum like we did all these years.

[mehmet]

Firstly, we were not 18% of the population in 1960. The proportion of Turkish Cypriots has decreased in 45 years, maybe you would like us not to exist at all.

Secondly, if Makarios was unhappy with the provision for Turkish Cypriot representation why did he agree to it and then make every effort to obstruct it to the point where he presented 13 amendments and then allowed security forces in Cyprus (including Nicos Sampson) to attack Turkish Cypriot areas of Cyprus? All this so he could get closer to 'his' motherland.

Thirdly, I have no arguement with Kurds having independence if they wish it. The history of Turkish Republic would have been very different and much more democratic if they hadn't spent a large part of 20th Century denying they even exist. The rights of Turkish Cypriots are no more or less worthy than the Kurds, and they have just as much right to be respected within their country. Unlike the Kurds the Turkish Cypriot's lived all over Cyprus not just in a geographically defined area. Therefore the 1960 Constitution with our 'super inflated rights' was an attempt to reassure us that we weren't going to become part of Greece. Even your community would have fought with the British if the Turkish Cypriots were trying to claim the whole island should become part of Turkey.

The failure of the 1960 constitution was in part because there wasn't agreement on seperate municipalities in the towns. We now have a situation where there are two separately adminstered parts of Cyprus. And you can't see why 1960 Constitution is not an acceptable proposition to Turkish Cypriots? It was a piece of paper which didn't stop us living like animals in cages for 11 years between 1963-74. We want something better than 1960 constitution because 1960 constitution couldn't prevent catastrophe of divided island. If you think it was too good for us I can only hope you are in the minority within south Cyprus so that we can conduct negotiations with people who can understand that we will never again give you the right to make us refugees again.

[metecyp]

This is pointless. I mean you are saying that all refugees should return, and TCs cannot own more than 15%. This is basically going back to before 1974. You're asking TCs to accept a situation that caused them to live in ghettos for 11 years with no rights whatsoever. In a sense, you're asking us to ignore the big mistake of supressing TCs for 11 years, and keeping them out of RC for 11 years, and then ignore the biggest mistake of Greek coup and the following Turkish intervention.

This is never going to happen. TCs won't accept to go before 1974, and the whole world shares this view. That's why we have the Annan plan. No matter what kind of a solution we'll find, I can assure you that it won't be like before 1974. So let's stop wasting our time.

[Piratis]

Firstly, we were not 18% of the population in 1960.

Yes, you were. Today you are less than 12%.

Secondly, if Makarios was unhappy with the provision for Turkish Cypriot representation why did he agree to it

Because he didn't had the guts/experience like Papadopolous today. We are learning.

Unlike the Kurds the Turkish Cypriot's lived all over Cyprus not just in a geographically defined area.

Correct. And today they demand to have their own geographical area which is a result of an illegal invasion and occupation.

In a sense, you're asking us to ignore the big mistake of supressing TCs for 11 years

We already paid for our mistakes before 1974 with the invasion, occupation, dead and missing people and 200.000 refugees. You expect from us to pay more?

You forgive us for what happened before 74 and we forgive you from what happened the last 30 years. If you can not forgive, then why should we?

So let's stop wasting our time.

I asked many times if you agree with the main principles here:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211
Except insan non of you replied. If you don't agree then just say it clearly so we will stop waisting our time.