Cyprus-Forum.com

[tcypriot]

Your ideas about tcs being minority have nothing to do with european democracy and humanism ideas.Had your ideas about being a minority because of being less in number found itself much support among many people living in the mostly populated EU countries, it would absolutely be the end of EU.

Can you imagine if Luxembourg or Malta with their population about 400thousand would join EU if this would make them a minority in a Union of Countries like Germany with a population of 80million?!

Cyprus is not a country.Cyprus is a geographical area where there are two Cypriot Nations just as there are many different european nations in the area of Europe.No nation can dominate the other because each of them have their seperate rights self governance.Whether Germany has 80million citizens and Malta 400thousand does not make the Maltese people a "minority" in modern europe thus in European Union.

Because to make the nations that live in that specific geographical area a minority, there's no other realistic way but to exercise military force over them.As world wars made the european nations, for example, to realise the gains of uniting under political equality EU was found.

Same thing applies to TurkishCypriots also.There are two ways for us
1)peaceful cooperation and prosperity caused by a federal structure like the annan plan
or
2)continuous opposition of the GreekCypriot and TurkishCypriot demands which will not cause mutual understanding to be realised ever.

The problem is that you either dont believe in a real cypriot state or you dont trust the turkishcypriots.Because a greekcypriot that sees the turkishcypriots equal should have no problem with the absolute political equality of the tcs.

[Piratis]

Cyprus is not a country.Cyprus is a geographical area where there are two Cypriot Nations

We disagree fundamentally.

In Cyprus there is only one country called Republic of Cyprus. Part of it is invaded by a foreign country and it is currently under occupation.

We are ready to make some very big compromises (federation) but If what you want is 2 separate countries then we have absolutely no common ground to discuss anything. I hope most TC do not think like that. If they do, then just let me know so I will stop waisting my time in here.

[metecyp]

I hope most TC do not think like that. If they do, then just let me know so I will stop waisting my time in here.

No, TCs are not after two independent states. They just want something (call it state, constituent state, etc.) where they can control their internal affairs, and they want equal vote in the federal government at least in important matters.

The problem is not what TCs want. The probelm is what GCs want. I've talked to many GCs who are not even willing to accept TCs as part of the RC. We tried RC and it didn't work, now we need something better, something that won't stay on the paper (federation). How are we going to convince those people for a federation when they think that even RC is too much? TCs abondened the idea of two seperate states long time ago, but GCs still have the same mentality.

What if Denktas said "I cannot give up my TRNC for Annan plan" (in fact he did). Do you think that's reasonable? If not, how's Papadopoulos saying "I cannot give up RC for Annan plan" reasonable?

TCs overcame their traditional position of two seperate states but GCs still follow the same path of dominating and controlling every aspect of life in Cyprus.

[Piratis]

TCs overcame their traditional position of two separate states but GCs still follow the same path of dominating and controlling every aspect of life in Cyprus.

TCs just got what the wanted with Annan plan: two separate states with a loose association. Nothing to do with any real federation that exists in the world.
If you want a federation, we accept. Do they have foreign judges in the US or Russia? Is there any country that has the right to intervene in those countries? Are the small states able to block every decision taken? Do they have rotating presidencies requiring a president from a different state each time? I could continue for pages!

When we said in the past, and we continue to say that we can accept federation, we mean federation as it is known to our world. Not a "federation" brought to us from Mars that has nothing to do with any real federation.

I can understand that you would want Annan plan solution, I would want too if I was a TC. Now, after the plan was rejected, you have to tell us if you are willing to compromise (truly compromise this time, like we did long time ago already) to find a solution.

If your tactic is to try to convince/press/threaten GC to accept Annan plan it will not work and it will be just more waste of time.

[metecyp]

If your tactic is to try to convince/press/threaten GC to accept Annan plan it will not work and it will be just more waste of time.

Who is trying to threaten GC? I don't want a solution that 75% of GCs reject. Isn't this what happenned in 1960? Most GCs were against RC, and that's why we had 1963 incidents and the mess we're in today.

Now, after the plan was rejected, you have to tell us if you are willing to compromise (truly compromise this time, like we did long time ago already) to find a solution.

Don't act as if TCs did not compromise. Even in the Annan plan TCs compromised a lot. They gave up TRNC for their constituent state. 1/3 of TCs agreed to be refugees again. They agreed for the return of GCs even in their constituent state (so they agreed on not a 'pure' state as they demanded before). TCs gave up on their traditional claim of property exchange between north and south. On the other hand, Turkey agreed significant reduction of Turkish troops (40.000 to 650!) and limit on the Turks in the north (40.000 vs. no limit as it is today). Now you're telling me that TCs and Turkey didn't compromise?

If you want a federation, we accept. Do they have foreign judges in the US or Russia? Is there any country that has the right to intervene in those countries? Are the small states able to block every decision taken? Do they have rotating presidencies requiring a president from a different state each time? I could continue for pages!

You cannot compare Cyprus to other countries. Each situation is unique. Besides, do you think these will be an issue in a EU member Cyprus? Those foreign judges are probably going to be EU citizens. Yes, Turkey has the right to intervene but Greece has it too. Why does rotating presidency bother you so much? I thought you wanted TC participation in the government.

Anyway, we need to find a solution between GC ideal solution (unitary state) and TC ideal solution (two independent states), and whether it's Annan type of solution or something else, we'll see. But the truth is neither GC ideal solution nor TC ideal solution will ever be satisfied completely.

[tcypriot]

Piratis, there are two equal nations on the island of Cyprus.Each have their seperate self determination rights.

As there were two seperate referanda the fact that we have seperate self determination was legalised.

The fact that there are two nations legalised with the huge world view difference among the people from each side.(%65Evet%75Ohi)

Cyprus republic was a bicommunal republic.Anyone who knows what bicommunal is, would easily agree that (Occupied) South Cyprus Administration is not a Bicommunal State.

Without our will nothing can represent Cyprus as a whole.Just as there can be no germany without the germans there can be no Cyprus without the TurkishCypriots.

Whether you like it or not most tcs think the way above.If this will make you close your eyes to the reality go on dont stop.

We will not surrender just as we did not between 1963 and 1974.

We resisted Against the domination of a community 4 times our population plus against more than 12thousand greek mainland invaders(12thousand oficially counted when leaving the island) for 11 years.

We're not a minority and we'll never accept to be.Yes we are less in number in the geographical area namely: Cyprus but that does not mean that you can dominate cyprus just as the fact germany has 8 times the population of greece does not mean that germany can dominate greece.We have political equality and you must respect and accept this.

But saying all the above does not mean that we do not want a federal solution.We made a huge compromise by accepting a federal solution thus the Annan plan instead of a confederal one and we can give no more.It's always our side that gives gives gives and it's always your side that wants more more and more each day.

Any GC who reads about the history of Cyprus between 1963 and 1974 would very easily agree that, for us(tcs), Annan plan is a huge compromise.

Yet because we are peaceful and forgiving we accept Annan plan though it's much more bitter for us.

Dont wait for any more compromise from the tcs.If all gcs think the way you do tell us and maybe we'll make a different road map.

Dont forget that you have to take into account the other majorities ideas.

[Piratis]

Who is trying to threaten GC? I don't want a solution that 75% of GCs reject.

I was not referring to you personally about the threats, but to the Turkish policy in general.

Don't act as if TCs did not compromise. Even in the Annan plan TCs compromised a lot.

I don't agree with that. Especially with the "a lot" part.

They gave up TRNC for their constituent state

What TRNC? Such thing does not exist. They gave up a a "ghost" state in return to a recognized state within EU.

1/3 of TCs agreed to be refugees again

1)Most of that 1/3 are not TCs but settlers
2)They didn't own the property in the first place
3)A house would be build for them (probably a better one than what they had) in some other place and then they would leave. They wouldn't have to live in tents.

Refugees where the GCs than when the Turkish army came they had to run away taking with them whatever they could keep in their hands and they lost everything else.

They agreed for the return of GCs even in their constituent state (so they agreed on not a 'pure' state as they demanded before).

1)Not all GC refugees would return
2)TCs could return in the GC state also.
3)As part of the EU all EU citizens can move and settle around freely. All EU countries had to make this "compromise". Still, while other EU citizens can move and settle in north freely. restrictions would apply for GCs.

TCs gave up on their traditional claim of property exchange between north and south.

This was just a claim. How can you give up something that you didn't have in the first place?
I could make 10000 unjustifiable and illegal claims and then take 100 back. Would that be consider as compromise?

Turkey agreed significant reduction of Turkish troops (40.000 to 650!)

Along with the right to intervene and bring back to Cyprus as many as they see fit. If the 40.000 troops are stationed in Cyprus or in Mersina it makes absolutely no difference to us when Turkey has the right to use these troops against us. With Annan plan we wouldn't even have the small defense that we have now.

limit on the Turks in the north (40.000 vs. no limit as it is today).

1)I've heard even Talad saying that no settler would leave (after Annan plan was finalized). They would keep them all here in one way or another. There was no mechanism agreed on how those people would leave.
2)Settlers are illegal. It is our compromise that we accepted some of them to remain, and not a compromise from Turkey.

[MicAtCyp]

Iyi aksamlar Metecyp,

You are a good debator and you know how to hit the core issues.

About your post No 184.
The population at the north. Look at the figures. 142K Voters at the Anan Plan. 1 - 18 years old don't vote out of life expectancy 72 years i. e 1 fourth don't vote. So 142K is the remaining 3 fourths. So the population is 142: 0. 75=190K . Other known figure TCs about 70K (120K in 1974) the rest are settlers. So conclussion TCs 80 - 70 K settlers 110 - 120K.

You asked "is this what you are telling me"?
I answer, no this is not what I told you, but yes this is one way that my human rights and everything that I said could be satisfied. Perhaps however it may be the only way.Entering the EU-nobody can take away even a fraction of anyones basic human rights, not even a referendum, because the refferendum itself will be declared void either prior to the voting or the very next day by the ECHR.

The questions you raised thereafter are my questions also. I don't know the answers. You said you don't want personal opinions so I will try to describe the genelal GC opinion. The story is as follows:
For 5 years we had Vasiliou as president and for another 10 years Klerides. They were almost begging for discussions. And everytime they were giving up something. Discount on this, discount on that, in the end they went even below the bottom line. I remember the day the first Anan Plan came. We the GCs got speachless. Everybody hearing the details of this Plan on the TV got frozen in his chair! But then we calmed down as we knew Denktas would reject it anyway. The Tcs were almost making a revolution for the Anan Plan… Sometimes they were asking why the GCs don't celebrate for the upcoming re - unification? How could they understand….
Then Papadopoulos was elected with 56% from the very first round among 3 - 4 canditates. That was the first time we had a president elected from the first round. I am sure if there was a second round between the remaining 2 canditates he would get more than 75%. Why? Because we all knew he was a man of dignity and he would burry the Anan Plan…. . The rest of the story is known to everybody.

Now the question is what made the GCs say no to the plan. The politicians say the number one issue was the matter of security and the intervention rights of Turkey. I say they forget the second major reason. It is the properties. The Anan plan was stealing 2 /3 of the properties!!! Thats was preposterous!!!. Any plan that would dare touch even 1% of the peoples right on owning their properties will flank again, exactly like the Anan Plan. And if the Politicians (e. g Akel go on urging the foreigners and the UN to settle the sercurity problen ONLY, and have a re - voting on the Plan) I guarantee them the Plan will flank once again. And it will bring final catastrophy to the place.

The basic mistake of the Anan Plan was that it was linking bizonality with the properties. That was completely wrong. Bizonality can exist without touching the peoples properties*. One can live in New York yet still chose to keep his property in California. The TCs wanted bizonality for safety reasons, not for stealing the properties of the GCs. At least thats what they say. Although I suspect their hypocricy is not less than that of the GCs, and that the real reason for wanting bi - zonality was to steal legally the properties of the GCs. Am I wrong or am I right on my suspicion?

PS.* If bizonality cannot exist without the TCs owning the majority of the properties in their region, then their region CANNOT be more that 15% (The privately owned lands of the TCs before 1974 was 12%+3% evkaf propertry) plus they must exchange all their properties in the South as well as that of Evkaf.If this cannot happen then bi-zonality cannot exist either, simple as that.

Selamlar.

[Piratis]

tcypriot,
I will not bother discussing your claims about 2 nations etc. It is a wate of time.

If all gcs think the way you do tell us and maybe we'll make a different road map.

Not all, but the majority of GC think more or less the way I do about this.

I am really interested to listen what your new road map is. Is it really new? I suspect is the same road map you had with Denctash for the last 30 years. If thats the case then you can have as many road maps as you want, but you will never find a road that leads somewhere.

[MicAtCyp]

It is awaste of time piratis. What the TCs beleive is that even the super inflated rights the had back in the 60s are NOT enough.They want 50-50. What they flooded their minds with via the loudspeakers at the squares is the the defeated must bend down to his knees.
And that even the 50-50 they ask is a compromise.
The only thing they seems to make them sceptical though, and doen not fit well into their minds, is how come the defeated is 10 steps on top of them.