Cyprus-Forum.com

[mehmet]

As for what the EU will do in the end-just wait and see. Do I need to remind you of the ECHR?

Carry on, tell me exactly what you think EU, ECHR will change for you.

[MicAtCyp]

I thought, other than just looking on the ground, you had the mental capacity to think.But your kind never had the mental capacity to even predict that Cyprus WOULD become an EU member… How could I possibly expect you to predict anything, that requires looking juuuust a little further away from your nose?

[MicAtCyp]

Metecyp said:

"No you're not telling the truth. TCs are not after a seperate state. TCs want a UNITED structure where they have some kind of autonomy and some kind of balanced structure…. . "


And this kind of autonomy and balanced structure has to include 29% control of the ground, by the 18% (actually today the TCs are only 70K i. e 10% NOT 18%!!!) and a hell lot of donations of GC properties, and the demand of the Generals for a strengthened bizonality (=as much as possible 2 separate states) and 160% settlers compared with the TCs with FULL political rights, and the turning of cases against Turkey at the EU court against Cyprus, and donation of sea shell rights to the British in addition to the rights of 1960 (page 151 of the plan) , and turning of our aggreement into a primary EU law, and turning the human rights of the GCs into thrird category European citizens, and with full rights of Turkey to invade again (how would you like a Plan that would assign Grivas to be your guarantor) and, and, and, as per Anan Plan?

Is it still a wonder to you why the GCs never got out in the streets to demonstrate for the Anan Plan, whereas more that 80, 000 TCs (actually this number is greater than the TCs themselves so it HAD to include many settlers as well) almost made a revolution for the Anan Plan?
Is it still a wonder why 76% GCs said OXI to the Plan, even if that would kill their dream for re - unification?

[mehmet]

I thought, other than just looking on the ground, you had the mental capacity to think.But your kind never had the mental capacity to even predict that Cyprus WOULD become an EU member… How could I possibly expect you to predict anything, that requires looking juuuust a little further away from your nose?

I can think for myself very well thank you. Instead of throwing insults about 'my kind' (who are you talking about?) why don't you answer the question. I don't presume to know what you think which was why I invite you to answer the question.

[metecyp]

Is it still a wonder to you why the GCs never got out in the streets to demonstrate for the Anan Plan, whereas more that 80, 000 TCs (actually this number is greater than the TCs themselves so it HAD to include many settlers as well) almost made a revolution for the Anan Plan?

For your information, there are more than 80.000 TCs on the island, and much more in England, Australia, and the US. It's enough that you're drilling in our heads that we're mere 18% minority, you don't need to try to reduce this to even further.

Tell us what the majority of GCs want then. What do you want? What's your solution? You want TCs to accept to have minority status just like any other minority in Europe? If that's what you want and if that's what the majority of GCs want, then tell us. Why did your leadership negotiate the Annan plan for so long if they didn't accept even the main principles of the plan?? Tell us what you want, so we know what to expect and what not to expect.

[MicAtCyp]

For your information, there are more than 80.000 TCs on the island, and much more in England, Australia, and the US. It's enough that you're drilling in our heads that we're mere 18% minority, you don't need to try to reduce this to even further.

And there are 700,000 GC emigrants in those countries as well.So whats your point, do the emmigrants count or the locals?

As for your question of what I want.
I want a unitary state and my human rights 100% quaranteed with ZERO discounts for the favor of anyone.I am european I deserve to be one and I am not going to degrade myself to a 2nd or 3rd class citizen
And I dont want the disolving of Cyprus Republic for the sake of some fluffy Anan solutions.

[metecyp]

And there are 700,000 GC emigrants in those countries as well.So whats your point, do the emmigrants count or the locals?

No. I'm just telling you that currently there are more than 80.000 TCs in the north (around 120.000 at least) and there are many TCs currently living in other countries that are ready to return back to Cyprus as soon as a solution is found (like me).

And I dont want the disolving of Cyprus Republic for the sake of some fluffy Anan solutions.

Ok, so you're telling me that if TCs want a solution, then they should return back to the Republic of Cyprus, and everybody should return to their homes. So you don't want any type of federation or any type of property exchange between the north and the south, if we want a solution, we should go back to the Republic of Cyprus, and everybody gets their property back, end of story. Is this what you're telling me?

I'm just trying to understand what the intentions of GCs are because I'm really confused. I remember the third Annan plan was favored by most GCs, at least there was a positive attitute about it. And I remember Papadopoulos saying how he agreed with the philosophy of the Annan plan, and how Denktash didn't even agree with the philosophy of the plan. I also remember how Papadopoulos said they were looking for minor changes in the plan, not any major changes that would change the philosophy of the plan.

Everything changed dramatically in New York, and Switzerland. Papadopoulos' talk on TV was a clear indication that he didn't accept the philosophy of the Annan plan as much as Denktas. He claimed that he is not going to dissolve Republic of Cyprus for the Annan plan and this was totally against the philosophy of Annan plan. Even the first version of the Annan plan stressed that the new structure would be a new birth not the continuation of anything.

So one main question is "Why did GCs negotiate the Annan plan if you weren't ready to give up the Republic of Cyprus?". One answer that comes to my mind is GCs hoped that Denktas would refuse the plan anyway. Second answer is GCs wanted to make sure that they get into EU without any problems, so they wanted to at least seem like the good guys.

That's why I'm asking right now for clarification. Tell us what you sincerely want. If the only solution is Republic of Cyprus, then tell us, so we know what to expect from you. I'm not so much interested in personal opinions here. I'm interested in what the majority of GCs think.

[Piratis]

Metecyp,
what we want is one thing, what the majority of GC can accept is another.

You said that the Annan plan was balanced. What you didn't understand was that the Annan plan was between our super maximum compromises and your super maximalistic demands. (and still, it was closer to your maximalistic demands than to our maximum compromises!)

While Denctash was demanding more than what TC actually wanted (he wouldn't settle for anything less than 2 separate states), our leaders (especially Vasiliou - Cleredes) demanded and agreed for less than what GC people could accept.

Do you accept the main principles I posted here:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

Those are not the ideal for us - far from it. But based on those principles we can find a solution that will be acceptable by the majority of GC, and I am sure should satisfy the great majority of TC also.

[metecyp]

Before asking me questions, could you answer my questions? Papadopoulos said he is not going to dissolve RC for the Annan plan. That means his vision for a solution definetely includes continuation of RC, am I wrong? I don't understand how he claimed that he agreed with the philosophy of the plan when he used excuses that were completely against the plan on TV.

Yes, Denktas has excessive demands, like recogniton of TRNC and two seperate states on the island. But this is only one end of the spectrum. At the other end is Papadopoulos. Denktas wants to keep TRNC, Papadopoulos wants to keep RC.

TCs showed that they don't share Denktas' vision. TCs showed that a solution is more important than having a seperate state, but GCs are yet to show that they really prefer a solution to the continuation of the present situation.

[Piratis]

Papadopoulos clearly said that this solution is a bad one for the reasons we already discussed. Why would he want to dissolve RC for something that he and the majority of GC consider very bad?

He also clearly said that the solution he is after is a bicommunal federation. If he was the exact opposite of Denctash he would be asking for a unitary state (the ideal) and nothing less.

Personally I don't know what the "philosophy" of the Annan plan is. For Papadopoulos the philosophy might be that TC and GC will have their own component states, for you the philosophy might include the settlers and the right of Turkey to intervene.

Instead of trying to understand how each one of as realizes what the philosophy of Annan plan is, I think is better to talk clearly and say what we can accept and what we can't.

More important than what Papadopoulos or any other politician says is what people say. And I am telling you that people can accept a federation, as long as Cyprus will be independent (no right from separate countries to intervene), democratic, united, with respect to human rights.