Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

Privileges do not guarantee peace and friendship, quite the contrary. Maybe if the constitution of RC was more fair in the first place we wouldn't be in this situation today.

These are empty words. Tell me how you could have guaranteed TC representation in the Republic of Cyprus in 1960 without any priviliges? Most GCs regarded RC as a step to Enosis in 1960, I think we agree on this. So how could you have guaranteed TC participation in the government without these priviliges?

If the RC consitution was more "fair", I'm sure the "fair" claim of GC to unite with Greece would have been implemented because that's what it was considered "fair" then. Would that have been peace and friendship then?

And what I'm saying is even these privileges could not guarantee TC representation in the republic so isn't it only natural to ask for something more solid, something that wouldn't just stay on the paper for 40 years and not implemented?

[Piratis]

Tell me how you could have guaranteed TC representation in the Republic of Cyprus in 1960 without any privileges?

Using your votes. 1.8% elects 1 member in the parliament today. The 18% would elect 10.
How are other minorities in US, UK France etc represented??

If the RC constitution was more "fair", I'm sure the "fair" claim of GC to unite with Greece would have been implemented because that's what it was considered "fair" then. Would that have been peace and friendship then?

Most countries that joined the EU today held referenda. Just 50% + 1 vote was enough for them to join the Union. I didn't see the people that voted against their country joining the EU to get the guns and start a war. There is still peace and friendship and no problems. This means respect for democracy.

[metecyp]

This means respect for democracy.

At the root of all of your arguments, you always use democracy and it seems so logical and innocent. I would have agreed with you 100% if ethnicity did not matter in Cyprus. If everyone was considered Cypriot and nothing else, then simple democracy with no priviliges would have been perfect. But we know that ethnicity still matters in Cyprus. For most GCs, I'm still a Turk, and for most TCs, you're a Greek. When I cross the border at Ledra Palace with a GC friend of mine, the GC police asks ID from me because of my ethnicity.

We still have this "us vs. them" mentality on both sides. As long as we have this mentality, there is always a possiblity of doing something that would favor "us" and not care about "them". Therefore, we need some kind of transition period, however long that might be, to get read of this mentality and create a structure where everybody is Cypriot and there is no "us vs. them".

[Piratis]

You know that I don't disagree with transitional period.

The "us VS them" does exist. What creates this problem is separation of people into competitive groups.

Theoretically speaking, imagine that tomorrow Cyprus is united under Republic of Cyprus and you are a citizen.
How do you think you will be harmed personally? You will become poorer? You will be given less chances for education, work than GC?

How ill you be harmed as a community? Will RC ban Turkish language or Muslim religion?

The "us VS them" exists even among Greek Cypriots. We support different football teams, different political parties, we have different beliefs, some have different religion, and we also have other minorities. But we also have law (and on top of that EU law also now) and the law has to be respected by all.

[metecyp]

How ill you be harmed as a community? Will RC ban Turkish language or Muslim religion?

Just a quick example. You know that new law about "Asia Minor genocide" that has been passed recently by RC? This is a very open question and I'm sure some GCs have no problem with this law. However, you won't find one single TC that would be comfortable living under this law. So if we accept your simple democracy, TCs should accept recognizing "Asia minor genocide"?

If GCs really care about TCs, and if they consider TCs as equal citizens of RC, then why would they need such a law? Wouldn't they know that TCs would be offended by such a law? Besides this is an open question anyway, we know lots of horrible things happenned in Asia Minor during that time, including Greek invasion and expulsion of Turks from the occupied areas in west Turkey.

Let's say another day the majority decides to celebrate the Greek independence from Ottomans, or another day the majority decides to honor the victims of "the Armenian Genocide". What if TCs want to celebrate liberation of Asia Minor from Greeks in 1920s? Could they do that? Of course not, because they're the minority, but majority can decide on anything they want.

What I'm tryinig to get at is this. There's so guarantee that GCs will take TC feelings and wishes into account when they make decisions. I have no problem with GCs as people, I don't think that I'll be harmed in any way personally. But when it comes to politics, I don't even have to look at the past. I look at today and I see laws like "Asia Minor genocide" and I wonder myself how can I trust that they won't try to pass similar laws in the future?

You said many times that you cannot depend on the good will of TCs. Well, same here. By urging me to be a citizen of RC, you're basicaly telling me to trust your good will.

[Piratis]

You know that new law about "Asia Minor genocide" that has been passed recently by RC?

I am not sure I understand what you mean. How is this thing a law? Does it require citizens to do or not do something in order to respect this law? Is there any way that somebody can be found guilty of not respecting this law?

I understand your point on this, and I agree that due to the nature of Cyprus we should just leave past behind and avoid anything that can create such problems. Still, I don't think this is such a great issue, to justify separation of the two communities.

I do not ask from you trust my good will. I ask from you to trust the laws of Cyprus and EU and accept democracy.

[MicAtCyp]

Your individual rights solution is all nice and everything, but how is that going to guarantee that TCs will be listened when it comes to important matters when something like 1960 agreements with so many priviliges could not guarantee anything to TCs?

Certainly these rights cannot be quaranteed on the expense of the majority.Because then we end up to suppression of the rights of the majority by the minority. It is impossible to give rights to one side without reducing the rights of the other side.

Thats why, the only solution that seems to be satisfactory to the TCs is 2 completely separate States either in reality or in disguise. Because the GCs have no way to satisfy you demands in any other way, and you will not accept anything less other that 2 equal states.Am I telling the truth or am I lying?
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Mehmet keep on looking the realities on the ground while others are looking the reality of your pockets. As for what the EU will do in the end-just wait and see. Do I need to remind you of the ECHR?

[Piratis]

the only solution that seems to be satisfactory to the TCs is 2 completely separate States either in reality or in disguise.

The root of this is that TC are convinced that they are not a minority. If 200.000 x is included in the same group with 700.000 y then inevitably x will be less than y in this group (therefore x will be minority). The only way that x will not be a minority is if we put x in a separate group from y.

Some days ago some TC said that Denctash didn't manage to convince them about partition. However Denctash convinced them that they are not a minority, which in effect has the exact same result.

[metecyp]

I am not sure I understand what you mean. How is this thing a law?

I'm not sure what the status of this Asia minor thing is and that's not the point. The point is you're asking me to consider to come back to RC, and I'm telling you that if you want me to feel part of RC, then things like recognition of Asia minor genocide should be avoided by GCs. I don't agree that this is a minor issue. You always claimed that the mistakes of the past won't repeat and we should move on, and this is just one example of one-sided, "majority rules who cares about the minority" mentality of GCs that still exist today.

I understand your point on this, and I agree that due to the nature of Cyprus we should just leave past behind and avoid anything that can create such problems

I agree but I gave you an example from today, not from the past.

Thats why, the only solution that seems to be satisfactory to the TCs is 2 completely separate States either in reality or in disguise. Because the GCs have no way to satisfy you demands in any other way, and you will not accept anything less other that 2 equal states.Am I telling the truth or am I lying?

No you're not telling the truth. TCs are not after a seperate state. TCs want a UNITED structure where they have some kind of autonomy and some kind of balanced structure that makes sure that the events of the past and the present (like Asia Minor Genocide thing) won't happen. TCs have been out of the Republic of Cyprus for 40 years now, despite all of the rights stated on the paper. It's only natural that we're asking something that won't just stay on the paper.

The root of this is that TC are convinced that they are not a minority. If 200.000 x is included in the same group with 700.000 y then inevitably x will be less than y in this group (therefore x will be minority). The only way that x will not be a minority is if we put x in a separate group from y.

TCs are minority in terms of numbers, but according to the only agreed structure on the island (RC) TCs are not minority in political terms and there's nothing illogical about this. There are many places where majority agrees to give up some of its rights for the minority. One example is affirmative action in America, and we had this discussion before.

Some days ago some TC said that Denctash didn't manage to convince them about partition. However Denctash convinced them that they are not a minority, which in effect has the exact same result.

Yes Denktash didn't manage to convince TCs about partition, but he certainly managed to convince many GCs. It's not only Denktash telling us that we're not a minority, it's the Republic of Cyprus that you love so much that says so. You keep praising how democratic RC is and how RC deserves to be in EU and so on, at least accept what RC laws say about TCs. If you're not going to accept, then announce to the whole world that RC is actually HRC (hellenic republic of Cyprus). Tell us what you really want so we can decide what to do from this point on. We expressed our desire for a united Cyprus in the last referandum, but your side's intentions are still not clear.

[Piratis]

but according to the only agreed structure on the island (RC) TCs are not minority in political terms

What brings you to this conclusion?

There are many places where majority agrees to give up some of its rights for the minority. One example is affirmative action in America

Those rights are given up as a temporary measure and there is nothing wrong with that. Affirmative action is taken for groups that are under represented in work force, universities etc. For example you can take such action to help more women to get into politics, since their number is low compared to their population (50%). But if in universities 50% of the students are women, are they going to take affirmative action to raise their number to 70%? If they do that then men will be under represented.

Therefore if TC get in something more than 18%, then if affirmative action is going to be taken it has to be for the benefit of GC, since GC will be the ones that will be under represented in this something.

So it is not fair for the 18% to have so much more, right?

I am sure you agree

Still, we are ready to accept something that is not that fair, as long as it creates a united, independent democratic Cyprus (see my other post for details). What we are asking is not the ideal, is the maximum compromise we can make.