Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

Bir, I think you have a rather distorted impression of 1974.

I will give you some facts, and then I will let you rethink the above, in view of them.

1. Sampson neither planed nor executed the coup; neither participated in its execution nor he had prior knowledge of the exact plans of the Junta.

2. The coup was executed by the Junta of Ioannidis, through their officers in Cyprus that were in charge of the National Guard, with the sole (privately and publicly) stated purpose to eliminate Makarios from playing any role in the Cypriot-Greek-international affairs.

3. Upon Makarios overthrown, the junta found themselves with a situation in Cyprus in which they had to appoint another Cypriot, as the president of the Republic, since they did not want to be seen as overtaking Cyprus themselves, and outside the constitutional order.

4. In this pursuit, they first conducted Klerides, president of the Parliament, who was the next in line after Makarios, to constitutionally be in charge in the absence or death of the President. Klerides refused, and then they went to the attorney general, who also refused. They then went to the previously retired attorney general, who also refused. In the end, Ioannidis, the junta leader, remembered Sampson and his friendship he had with, during his term as a military officer in Cyprus under the Greek contingent, 10 years before (1964.) Sampson accepted.

5. Sampson was appointed, not to be any leader with the capacity or the right by Junta to be the decision maker, but instead as a last minute resort puppet. During the few days he lasted as appointed "president" he was ordered by Junta to declare that (a.) The TCs were in no danger as this was an internal issue among the GC community, and (b.) that he will continue the inter-communal talks with Denktash, from where they were left with him and Klerides in 1973.

All the above facts show that Sampson neither was at the time, nor that he was going to become a decision maker, neither that he had any particular plan or a mission on his own, since he was not the one that took the decision for the coup or was the man the junta had in mind when conceiving their coup against Makarios. I do not know what mission you are talking about, since Sampson was only a last resort, after various others turned down the proposal to take over. Somewhat, your above statement does not fit in with the facts!

Yet Samson was arrested and imprisoned and those responsible invisible people were allowed to go free.........Thats the way to get yourself out of a corner Kifeas.....Put a knife to your own throat


As Kikapu is into his films and seems to be living in his Hollywood brain I thought at least he might appreciate this:

[Kifeas]

Zany boy, Sampson was imprisoned, because he accepted to pretend the president. As for those responsible for the coup, 35 years after it and they are still in prison in Greece (actually half of them already died in prison.)

[zan]

Zany boy, Sampson was imprisoned, because he accepted to pretend the president. As for those responsible for the coup, 35 years after it and they are still in prison in Greece (actually half of them already died in prison.)

So ALL those responsible have been punished have they??

[BirKibrisli]

There is really one quick way out of our predicament...For Talat to dissolve the trnc and demand to return to the ROC under the 1960 agreements and Constitution...But he has neither the wisdom nor the power to do that...

I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened if Turkey leaves the tap turned off for too long… the man is getting very desperate.

The sad thing is,GR, Turkey thinks Talat has grown too big for his boots,and cannot be trusted any longer...They are getting ready to dump him for Dervish Eroglu,an uncompromising Turkish nationalist...You might yet get to miss Talat...

Perhaps it’s an opportunity for the RoC to bail him out… what’s that figure again 500m p/a? Surely the RoC can pay that and buy them off…

This is no laughing matter,GR!

The Military,the Establishment,and the "deep sate" never trusted TAlat in the first place....Now the AKP government are having second thoughts...
Probably for two reasons...One,they don't think he is Turkish and Islamic enough...Two,as Tim alluded to above,ERdogan is being drown closer and closer to the Military which would be much more comfortable with someone like Eroglu in charge of the negotiations...We have at most 18 months to find a solution,after that the Partitionists'dreams would most probably be realised...Agreed or not...

Bir,

You might be interested in looking at the following article (presuming you haven't already read it) by academic Mesut Yeğen that was published in the Radikal newspaper recently. I think he has an interesting take on the pact that appears to have been made between the establishment and the AKP.

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx? ... eID=910669

I made an English translation of this article and posted it at my website:

http://www.timdrayton.com/a33.html

Another theory doing the rounds is that the Americans brokered this pact behind the scenes because they could not risk too much instability in such a key geopolitical ally.

I am sure of one thing. This is closing the window of opportunity for Cyprus created by the willingness of the Erdoğan government to seriously rethink policy in various key areas, including that concerning the island.

Tim,thank you for that link...No I had not read it...
It is interesting but not unexpected...AKP and Erdogan finally saw the light...The light was that they had no chance of staying in power if they threatened the establishment....So they gave up on their "Islamic" principles and embraced their Turkishness a bit more firmly..I feel sorry for Turkey,but as they say "You get the government you deserve!"...

I hesitate to write this...but I hope you realise the Talat they mention in this article is not Mehmet Ali...It was of course Talat Pasha who was the effective ruler of the Ottomans in Abdulhamit's time...Sorry If I am stating the obvious...

[BirKibrisli]

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

Bir, I think you have a rather distorted impression of 1974.

I will give you some facts, and then I will let you rethink the above, in view of them.

1. Sampson neither planed nor executed the coup; neither participated in its execution nor he had prior knowledge of the exact plans of the Junta.

2. The coup was executed by the Junta of Ioannidis, through their officers in Cyprus that were in charge of the National Guard, with the sole (privately and publicly) stated purpose to eliminate Makarios from playing any role in the Cypriot-Greek-international affairs.

3. Upon Makarios overthrown, the junta found themselves with a situation in Cyprus in which they had to appoint another Cypriot, as the president of the Republic, since they did not want to be seen as overtaking Cyprus themselves, and outside the constitutional order.

4. In this pursuit, they first conducted Klerides, president of the Parliament, who was the next in line after Makarios, to constitutionally be in charge in the absence or death of the President. Klerides refused, and then they went to the attorney general, who also refused. They then went to the previously retired attorney general, who also refused. In the end, Ioannidis, the junta leader, remembered Sampson and his friendship he had with, during his term as a military officer in Cyprus under the Greek contingent, 10 years before (1964.) Sampson accepted.

5. Sampson was appointed, not to be any leader with the capacity or the right by Junta to be the decision maker, but instead as a last minute resort puppet. During the few days he lasted as appointed "president" he was ordered by Junta to declare that (a.) The TCs were in no danger as this was an internal issue among the GC community, and (b.) that he will continue the inter-communal talks with Denktash, from where they were left with him and Klerides in 1973.

All the above facts show that Sampson neither was at the time, nor that he was going to become a decision maker, neither that he had any particular plan or a mission on his own, since he was not the one that took the decision for the coup or was the man the junta had in mind when conceiving their coup against Makarios. I do not know what mission you are talking about, since Sampson was only a last resort, after various others turned down the proposal to take over. Somewhat, your above statement does not fit in with the facts!

I am aware of most of these facts,Kifeas...Still,it doesnt change the big question in my mind...WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD SAMPSON BEEN ALLOWED TO STAY IN POWER,AND HAD THE JUNTA IN GREECE WERE ALLOWED TO STAY IN POWER???????

I am expecting a realistic answer to this question.....The coup was to pave way for Enosis,was it not???? So once they dealt with the Makarios supporters and all the leftist from AKEL,what do you think they would have done with the Turkish Cypriots for whom Enosis would've been Anathema...A realistic answer please.....

[Kikapu]

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

Bir, I think you have a rather distorted impression of 1974.

I will give you some facts, and then I will let you rethink the above, in view of them.

1. Sampson neither planed nor executed the coup; neither participated in its execution nor he had prior knowledge of the exact plans of the Junta.

2. The coup was executed by the Junta of Ioannidis, through their officers in Cyprus that were in charge of the National Guard, with the sole (privately and publicly) stated purpose to eliminate Makarios from playing any role in the Cypriot-Greek-international affairs.

3. Upon Makarios overthrown, the junta found themselves with a situation in Cyprus in which they had to appoint another Cypriot, as the president of the Republic, since they did not want to be seen as overtaking Cyprus themselves, and outside the constitutional order.

4. In this pursuit, they first conducted Klerides, president of the Parliament, who was the next in line after Makarios, to constitutionally be in charge in the absence or death of the President. Klerides refused, and then they went to the attorney general, who also refused. They then went to the previously retired attorney general, who also refused. In the end, Ioannidis, the junta leader, remembered Sampson and his friendship he had with, during his term as a military officer in Cyprus under the Greek contingent, 10 years before (1964.) Sampson accepted.

5. Sampson was appointed, not to be any leader with the capacity or the right by Junta to be the decision maker, but instead as a last minute resort puppet. During the few days he lasted as appointed "president" he was ordered by Junta to declare that (a.) The TCs were in no danger as this was an internal issue among the GC community, and (b.) that he will continue the inter-communal talks with Denktash, from where they were left with him and Klerides in 1973.

All the above facts show that Sampson neither was at the time, nor that he was going to become a decision maker, neither that he had any particular plan or a mission on his own, since he was not the one that took the decision for the coup or was the man the junta had in mind when conceiving their coup against Makarios. I do not know what mission you are talking about, since Sampson was only a last resort, after various others turned down the proposal to take over. Somewhat, your above statement does not fit in with the facts!

I am aware of most of these facts,Kifeas...Still,it doesnt change the big question in my mind...WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD SAMPSON BEEN ALLOWED TO STAY IN POWER,AND HAD THE JUNTA IN GREECE WERE ALLOWED TO STAY IN POWER???????

I am expecting a realistic answer to this question.....The coup was to pave way for Enosis,was it not???? So once they dealt with the Makarios supporters and all the leftist from AKEL,what do you think they would have done with the Turkish Cypriots for whom Enosis would've been Anathema...A realistic answer please.....

Bir,

It would be good to know just how many GC's were in favour of Enosis in 1974, because according to many GC's here on the forum, not too many were in favour, and having around approximately 100,000 TC's and 400,000 GC's at the time, even if 50% of the GC's did not want Enosis along with the 100,000 TC's, do you then think, that Sampson was going to kill all 300,000 TC's and GC's combined. Hard to believe really. It is always very easy to look into an event that did not happen and reach an conclusion at it's very worse scenario as the possible outcome of that event if it did happen, and if we then do just that, then yes, Sampson would have killed all 300,000 TC's and GC's Cypriots to have his Enosis. The truth is, we will never know, because that part of the history for Cyprus never took place. All we can do is make an assumption, and you know what they say when we assume things.!!

[Kifeas]

Bir, as Kikapu said, no one can offer you a definite answer to the question of what would have happened had Junta or Sampson been allowed to stay in power any longer than they did. However, are you suggesting that every time there is a coup in each country around the globe, and a government is overthrown, another country should attack or invade with 100 fighter jets and 50 battle ships, start bombing around and then lands its troops and tanks, and start capturing territory from the invaded country and forcing its population out of their homes and lands in order to seal it off and use its own political or other reasons or interests? Are you suggesting that every time there was a military coup in Turkey and the elected governments were overthrown, that the US or Russia should have invaded Turkey on the premise or assumption that the human and constitutional rights of the Turkish people were violated, and /or that the military coupists will possibly or likely turn against the Kurds of Turkey in order to annihilate them? In that case, how many times Turkey should have been invaded so far?
It is true that no one can tell you for sure what would have been the situation, had Sampson been allowed to stay. My high prediction is that he would not have been allowed to stay, without the need of Turkey actually invading. In view of the fact that the UN SC council convened upon Makarios request and was about to issue a strong resolution denouncing the coup, calling upon the junta to step out of Cyprus and allow Makarios to return, and this combined with a mere threat by Turkey and /or the UK to obey its (UN resolution’s) content, that the junta would have run away, like they did in 1967 after the Kofinou events. Even in the (unlikely) case they did not obey, the last thing they would have wanted was to risk a war with Turkey by declaring the Union of Cyprus with Greece or by starting attacks against the TCs. I do not think they were that stupid!

The truth of the matter, Bir, is that Turkey had made its mind to invade and partition Cyprus, long before the coup, and they were merely waiting for the pre-text to be found. Turkey was preparing very fervently during the previous 4-5 years by conducting simulating landing exercises in the Hattay area. The fact that within 5 days they managed to bring together the forces needed and land them in Cyprus, is more than a proof. There is credible classified information that had the coup not materialized, in order provide the needed pre-text (and they knew well from the CIA that Junta was plotting a coup to overthrow Makarios,) that they would have manufactured it by provoking an inter-communal incidence in the area of Lefka /Limnitis later in October 1974. October was chosen because it was a more suitable month (not a heavy summer period like July /August) for a military operation. The scenario of the incidence was that TCs of Lefka /Limnitis area would have shown to be attempting the transfer of undisclosed supplies to the area of kokkina enclave, in order to provoke the reaction of the GC national Guard to stop and search the supplies, in which case the TCs would have refused, fighting would have erupted and escalated very quickly. Either this or any other such event or incident was very easy to be orchestrated in Cyprus, should one or the other side had wanted it to occur for their own reasons.

[BirKibrisli]

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

Bir, I think you have a rather distorted impression of 1974.

I will give you some facts, and then I will let you rethink the above, in view of them.

1. Sampson neither planed nor executed the coup; neither participated in its execution nor he had prior knowledge of the exact plans of the Junta.

2. The coup was executed by the Junta of Ioannidis, through their officers in Cyprus that were in charge of the National Guard, with the sole (privately and publicly) stated purpose to eliminate Makarios from playing any role in the Cypriot-Greek-international affairs.

3. Upon Makarios overthrown, the junta found themselves with a situation in Cyprus in which they had to appoint another Cypriot, as the president of the Republic, since they did not want to be seen as overtaking Cyprus themselves, and outside the constitutional order.

4. In this pursuit, they first conducted Klerides, president of the Parliament, who was the next in line after Makarios, to constitutionally be in charge in the absence or death of the President. Klerides refused, and then they went to the attorney general, who also refused. They then went to the previously retired attorney general, who also refused. In the end, Ioannidis, the junta leader, remembered Sampson and his friendship he had with, during his term as a military officer in Cyprus under the Greek contingent, 10 years before (1964.) Sampson accepted.

5. Sampson was appointed, not to be any leader with the capacity or the right by Junta to be the decision maker, but instead as a last minute resort puppet. During the few days he lasted as appointed "president" he was ordered by Junta to declare that (a.) The TCs were in no danger as this was an internal issue among the GC community, and (b.) that he will continue the inter-communal talks with Denktash, from where they were left with him and Klerides in 1973.

All the above facts show that Sampson neither was at the time, nor that he was going to become a decision maker, neither that he had any particular plan or a mission on his own, since he was not the one that took the decision for the coup or was the man the junta had in mind when conceiving their coup against Makarios. I do not know what mission you are talking about, since Sampson was only a last resort, after various others turned down the proposal to take over. Somewhat, your above statement does not fit in with the facts!

I am aware of most of these facts,Kifeas...Still,it doesnt change the big question in my mind...WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD SAMPSON BEEN ALLOWED TO STAY IN POWER,AND HAD THE JUNTA IN GREECE WERE ALLOWED TO STAY IN POWER???????

I am expecting a realistic answer to this question.....The coup was to pave way for Enosis,was it not???? So once they dealt with the Makarios supporters and all the leftist from AKEL,what do you think they would have done with the Turkish Cypriots for whom Enosis would've been Anathema...A realistic answer please.....

Bir,

It would be good to know just how many GC's were in favour of Enosis in 1974, because according to many GC's here on the forum, not too many were in favour, and having around approximately 100,000 TC's and 400,000 GC's at the time, even if 50% of the GC's did not want Enosis along with the 100,000 TC's, do you then think, that Sampson was going to kill all 300,000 TC's and GC's combined. Hard to believe really. It is always very easy to look into an event that did not happen and reach an conclusion at it's very worse scenario as the possible outcome of that event if it did happen, and if we then do just that, then yes, Sampson would have killed all 300,000 TC's and GC's Cypriots to have his Enosis. The truth is, we will never know, because that part of the history for Cyprus never took place. All we can do is make an assumption, and you know what they say when we assume things.!!

I never believed that Sampson intended to kill all the GCs who opposed Enosis,No...That is why I used the word "dealt"...But given the chance he would have dealt with them in the tradition of all military juntas...Some killings,some imprisonments and torture etc to intimidate the remaining GCs to accept Enosis...Now,when that was taken care of,how do you think the Military in Greece and their puppet Sampson in Cyprus would have dealt with the TCs???? This is the crucial question which put the fear of death in every TC alive and able to think at the time...I was not one of them,as I ahd already escaped the civil war,but most of my family were and I have had long chats to them about it...They were in no doubt that Turkey had saved them from wholesale slaughter. Now you can argue that that fear was the result of brainwashing etc...But it was real for them,and after what they had gone through during 1964-74 period,it felt inevitable...That is all I am saying...That Turkey had other designs less noble than the safety of the TCs is beside the point...The TCs had suffered enough and gone through such emotional and physical pain as a result of their treatment by Makarios that it was unthinkable for most of them to accept the same isolation and intimidation under someone like Sampson...The biggest mistake our fellow Cypriots are doing now is to ignore or try to minimise what the 64-74 period had meant for the TCs...
I hope you are not going to join them in this...

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, as Kikapu said, no one can offer you a definite answer to the question of what would have happened had Junta or Sampson been allowed to stay in power any longer than they did. However, are you suggesting that every time there is a coup in each country around the globe, and a government is overthrown, another country should attack or invade with 100 fighter jets and 50 battle ships, start bombing around and then lands its troops and tanks, and start capturing territory from the invaded country and forcing its population out of their homes and lands in order to seal it off and use its own political or other reasons or interests? Are you suggesting that every time there was a military coup in Turkey and the elected governments were overthrown, that the US or Russia should have invaded Turkey on the premise or assumption that the human and constitutional rights of the Turkish people were violated, and /or that the military coupists will possibly or likely turn against the Kurds of Turkey in order to annihilate them? In that case, how many times Turkey should have been invaded so far?
It is true that no one can tell you for sure what would have been the situation, had Sampson been allowed to stay. My high prediction is that he would not have been allowed to stay, without the need of Turkey actually invading. In view of the fact that the UN SC council convened upon Makarios request and was about to issue a strong resolution denouncing the coup, calling upon the junta to step out of Cyprus and allow Makarios to return, and this combined with a mere threat by Turkey and /or the UK to obey its (UN resolution’s) content, that the junta would have run away, like they did in 1967 after the Kofinou events. Even in the (unlikely) case they did not obey, the last thing they would have wanted was to risk a war with Turkey by declaring the Union of Cyprus with Greece or by starting attacks against the TCs. I do not think they were that stupid!

The truth of the matter, Bir, is that Turkey had made its mind to invade and partition Cyprus, long before the coup, and they were merely waiting for the pre-text to be found. Turkey was preparing very fervently during the previous 4-5 years by conducting simulating landing exercises in the Hattay area. The fact that within 5 days they managed to bring together the forces needed and land them in Cyprus, is more than a proof. There is credible classified information that had the coup not materialized, in order provide the needed pre-text (and they knew well from the CIA that Junta was plotting a coup to overthrow Makarios,) that they would have manufactured it by provoking an inter-communal incidence in the area of Lefka /Limnitis later in October 1974. October was chosen because it was a more suitable month (not a heavy summer period like July /August) for a military operation. The scenario of the incidence was that TCs of Lefka /Limnitis area would have shown to be attempting the transfer of undisclosed supplies to the area of kokkina enclave, in order to provoke the reaction of the GC national Guard to stop and search the supplies, in which case the TCs would have refused, fighting would have erupted and escalated very quickly. Either this or any other such event or incident was very easy to be orchestrated in Cyprus, should one or the other side had wanted it to occur for their own reasons.

It is easy for us now,to sit safely behind our computers and talk about what might or might not have happened back then,dear Kifeas...
The bitter truth is that given then events of the 50s and the period 63-74 most TCs had a pathological mistrust of the GCs and especially someone like Sampson...The reasons are immaterial..You can argue that it was imaginary or self-induced..It will not change anything...Please do not make the mistake of trying to minimise the 63-74 period and what it meant for the TCs...They were made to feel as second class citizens in their own country,and they felt that their basic human right,right to life was under continuous threat...If you fail to grasp this point,and insist that they were just sulking in their corners because they wanted special threatment,and their main aim was to give Turkey a trigger to invade,then you will have no empathy or compassion for what they are going through now...And that would make them go even further into Turkey's arms and away from true unification...As far as I am concerned,the shear psychological torture they(the TCs)were living under at the time made Turkey's intervension justifed ...That they then abused their rights and turned the intervension into occupation is another matter,and as you know I have strong opinions on that too...
But please don't talk to me about UN resolution and whether they would've been successful in ending the Sampson Coup or bringing Makarios back...That would have been the lesser of the two evils for the TCs...But given the 63-74 period you would have to forgive them for not putting too much trust in the UN and in Makarios' rule...

[Piratis]

Bir, there is no question that TCs choose to be in conflict because they insisted on having unfair and undemocratic privileges which were granted to them by the British as a reward for helping them to oppress the Cypriot revolution.

In fact the conflict didn't start in 63, but in 58, when TCs attacked GCs. The GCs never had any intention to harm TCs, the only intention was to achieve freedom and self-determination for our island, something which the TCs didn't accept because collaborating with foreigners and receiving unfair and undemocratic privileges on our loss suited them better.

So say the Junta had not collapsed and they managed to keep Cyprus. The most that could happen is that Greece and Cyprus will be united. Nothing would happen to TCs (apart from losing the unfair privileges that they shouldn't have to begin with) just like nothing have happened to the Turks of Thrace during the many years of Junta rule.

All of us would suffer under the Junta, and when the Junta would eventually collapse, the Cypriot people would be able to democratically decide if they want to be independent or be part of Greece, with a democratic referendum.

Is that so bad Bir?

I think it is time for you to accept that the lives of TCs were never threatened. If any TCs were killed, this happened in conflicts which the TCs started with the aim to gain privileges on the loss of the rest of Cypriots.

The only thing that was threatened was the unfair privileges that were granted to TCs on our loss. Nothing more. Just look at the reaction of TCs to the 13 points proposed by Makarios.