Cyprus-Forum.com

[doesntmatter]

Zan, ffs Ankara forced you to change even you surnames so that they look and sound Turkish!!!

Does Erdogan, Altintop, sound more Turkish than Hasan, Huseyin, Mehmet?

Or would you rather we used the old "fathers first name as the family name" sytem to make it very hard for us to trace our family tree further back than our grandparents?

Just on emore question, why does the GC surnames sound so Greek, like Karamanlis, Papadopoulos, Klerides?

Don't you think it is just a little strange to change our surnames now, right after Turkey occupied the north and brought the settlers in. It is designed to blend the TC's in with the settlers so that there will not be any distinctions between the two people. In another words, the TC's have been assimilated being Turkish and no longer Cypriots or even Turkish Cypriot for that matter. A total eradication of the TC culture from the island and you are helping in going along with Turkey's plans. For the last 400 years in Cyprus your family tree was never an issue and all of a sudden you are concerned about your family tree. ?? I honestly doubt your sincerity in your claim regarding your "family tree".

You learn something new every day. I imagined TCs must have adopted surnames at the same time as people in the 'motherland'; now I see that in 1974 something called the 'Surnames Rule' was implemented:

http://www.mahkemeler.net/mahkeme-web-t ... kemelerini

I love the surname Bullici that you encounter among Turkish Cypriots. It is very Cypriot.

I can only guess that your fathers first name is/was Drayton, am I right?

[doesntmatter]

Zan, ffs Ankara forced you to change even you surnames so that they look and sound Turkish!!!

Does Erdogan, Altintop, sound more Turkish than Hasan, Huseyin, Mehmet?

Or would you rather we used the old "fathers first name as the family name" sytem to make it very hard for us to trace our family tree further back than our grandparents?

Just on emore question, why does the GC surnames sound so Greek, like Karamanlis, Papadopoulos, Klerides?

Don't you think it is just a little strange to change our surnames now, right after Turkey occupied the north and brought the settlers in. It is designed to blend the TC's in with the settlers so that there will not be any distinctions between the two people. In another words, the TC's have been assimilated being Turkish and no longer Cypriots or even Turkish Cypriot for that matter. A total eradication of the TC culture from the island and you are helping in going along with Turkey's plans. For the last 400 years in Cyprus your family tree was never an issue and all of a sudden you are concerned about your family tree. ?? I honestly doubt your sincerity in your claim regarding your "family tree".

No not at all, there is normally 1 family name which is passed on from generation to generation like anywhere else in the world, really Kikapu any excuse and you are first in line and so predictable.

Some people will use any old excuse to critisize anything the people they don't like do, even if you do the exact same thing as they do.

[BirKibrisli]

There is really one quick way out of our predicament...For Talat to dissolve the trnc and demand to return to the ROC under the 1960 agreements and Constitution...But he has neither the wisdom nor the power to do that...

I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened if Turkey leaves the tap turned off for too long… the man is getting very desperate.

The sad thing is,GR, Turkey thinks Talat has grown too big for his boots,and cannot be trusted any longer...They are getting ready to dump him for Dervish Eroglu,an uncompromising Turkish nationalist...You might yet get to miss Talat...

Perhaps it’s an opportunity for the RoC to bail him out… what’s that figure again 500m p/a? Surely the RoC can pay that and buy them off…

This is no laughing matter,GR!

The Military,the Establishment,and the "deep sate" never trusted TAlat in the first place....Now the AKP government are having second thoughts...
Probably for two reasons...One,they don't think he is Turkish and Islamic enough...Two,as Tim alluded to above,ERdogan is being drown closer and closer to the Military which would be much more comfortable with someone like Eroglu in charge of the negotiations...We have at most 18 months to find a solution,after that the Partitionists'dreams would most probably be realised...Agreed or not...

Poor president Talat...Bir says Turkey doesn't want him and iceman says (he knows best because he lives in Cyprus) that Talat has become Turkeys yes man.....The GCs do not have to fight us...We are doing a fantastic job for them as they had planned.....

Bir.......Do you agree with the fact that when Makarios ordered his supporters to put down their arms against the Coupists the killings continued and would have done until completion. If so how can you ask us to give up our position and go in bare arsed to see what we can get. I don't know how you think when you want to grovel to a hostile people but I have no intention of doing that. If that comes about we deserve everything we get...Which will be not much. The Greeks have been erasing everything Turkish from their system for centuries and the evidence shows that nothing has changed... Turkish words have disappeared and replaced with Greek is one example...The idea that you could think that anyone is going to give you a single biscuit is just beyond me. The world does not work that way. We are partners in Cyprus and you want to give that up and go cap in hand to a people that have tried to starve, kill, or trick us into submission. I really have no idea where you are coming from. I understand your good intentions for humanity but the real world is a dog eat dog one. I pity the lamb that walk into the lions cage.

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

BUT>>>TIMES HAVE CHANGED MATE...
I sincerely believe that we have all learnt a BIG lesson from the events of our recent past...Those times will never be repeated...If we,as Cypriots, do not take our fates in our own hands,we are doomed...Turkey will always loook after her own interests first...So will Greece,Britain,Russia,USA etc....The only way we can take immediate charge of our own fate is to go back to the ONLY agreement we ever signed which gave us our Independence...Demanding our rights as per our Constitution is NOT begging anyone...It is being truly realistic about the present situation and the plight of the TCs...WE face certain assimilation/extinction under any other solution than Reunification in a UNitary state...If you believed that, and it mattered to you as much as it does to me,than you too would realise there is no other option for us...

But do not lose heart...Nobody is going to demand anything,and if we did nobody is going to agree anyway...We are heading straight for partition...If I were you I'd be nice to the GCs from now on...They will carry on and perpetuate the Cypriot culture and identity (our common culture and identity) for some time to come....500 years from now,those who want to study the ancient and extinct TC community will have to look at the GCs....And shake their heads in disbelief....

[Get Real!]

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...

I had the displeasure of sitting right opposite Nicos Sampson on a table at a wedding party either on the Saturday or Sunday just before the Monday 15th of July coup! He didn’t look like someone who was poised to fill in the presidency role just hours later… Weird eh?

[zan]

There is really one quick way out of our predicament...For Talat to dissolve the trnc and demand to return to the ROC under the 1960 agreements and Constitution...But he has neither the wisdom nor the power to do that...

I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened if Turkey leaves the tap turned off for too long… the man is getting very desperate.

The sad thing is,GR, Turkey thinks Talat has grown too big for his boots,and cannot be trusted any longer...They are getting ready to dump him for Dervish Eroglu,an uncompromising Turkish nationalist...You might yet get to miss Talat...

Perhaps it’s an opportunity for the RoC to bail him out… what’s that figure again 500m p/a? Surely the RoC can pay that and buy them off…

This is no laughing matter,GR!

The Military,the Establishment,and the "deep sate" never trusted TAlat in the first place....Now the AKP government are having second thoughts...
Probably for two reasons...One,they don't think he is Turkish and Islamic enough...Two,as Tim alluded to above,ERdogan is being drown closer and closer to the Military which would be much more comfortable with someone like Eroglu in charge of the negotiations...We have at most 18 months to find a solution,after that the Partitionists'dreams would most probably be realised...Agreed or not...

Poor president Talat...Bir says Turkey doesn't want him and iceman says (he knows best because he lives in Cyprus) that Talat has become Turkeys yes man.....The GCs do not have to fight us...We are doing a fantastic job for them as they had planned.....

Bir.......Do you agree with the fact that when Makarios ordered his supporters to put down their arms against the Coupists the killings continued and would have done until completion. If so how can you ask us to give up our position and go in bare arsed to see what we can get. I don't know how you think when you want to grovel to a hostile people but I have no intention of doing that. If that comes about we deserve everything we get...Which will be not much. The Greeks have been erasing everything Turkish from their system for centuries and the evidence shows that nothing has changed... Turkish words have disappeared and replaced with Greek is one example...The idea that you could think that anyone is going to give you a single biscuit is just beyond me. The world does not work that way. We are partners in Cyprus and you want to give that up and go cap in hand to a people that have tried to starve, kill, or trick us into submission. I really have no idea where you are coming from. I understand your good intentions for humanity but the real world is a dog eat dog one. I pity the lamb that walk into the lions cage.

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

BUT>>>TIMES HAVE CHANGED MATE...
I sincerely believe that we have all learnt a BIG lesson from the events of our recent past...Those times will never be repeated...If we,as Cypriots, do not take our fates in our own hands,we are doomed...Turkey will always loook after her own interests first...So will Greece,Britain,Russia,USA etc....The only way we can take immediate charge of our own fate is to go back to the ONLY agreement we ever signed which gave us our Independence...Demanding our rights as per our Constitution is NOT begging anyone...It is being truly realistic about the present situation and the plight of the TCs...WE face certain assimilation/extinction under any other solution than Reunification in a UNitary state...If you believed that, and it mattered to you as much as it does to me,than you too would realise there is no other option for us...

But do not lose heart...Nobody is going to demand anything,and if we did nobody is going to agree anyway...We are heading straight for partition...If I were you I'd be nice to the GCs from now on...They will carry on and perpetuate the Cypriot culture and identity (our common culture and identity) for some time to come....500 years from now,those who want to study the ancient and extinct TC community will have to look at the GCs....And shake their heads in disbelief....

The GCs will change along withy us Bir...Nothing stands still...They are already different from what they were as you say. There is no change in them wanting to take control of the island though.

What you asked was for the TRNC to dissolve and for us to go cap in hand to ask for our rights back. I am saying that that is like asking to play in a football match and allowing them three goals advantage when we have only eight players to their eleven. We aint gonna win!!!!We aint even gonna draw. If they cant negotiate from where we are then partition it is. As you said.They never will so why get all hung up about it...I look to move on. The truth is we cannot hold on forever...

[Tim Drayton]

There is really one quick way out of our predicament...For Talat to dissolve the trnc and demand to return to the ROC under the 1960 agreements and Constitution...But he has neither the wisdom nor the power to do that...

I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened if Turkey leaves the tap turned off for too long… the man is getting very desperate.

The sad thing is,GR, Turkey thinks Talat has grown too big for his boots,and cannot be trusted any longer...They are getting ready to dump him for Dervish Eroglu,an uncompromising Turkish nationalist...You might yet get to miss Talat...

Perhaps it’s an opportunity for the RoC to bail him out… what’s that figure again 500m p/a? Surely the RoC can pay that and buy them off…

This is no laughing matter,GR!

The Military,the Establishment,and the "deep sate" never trusted TAlat in the first place....Now the AKP government are having second thoughts...
Probably for two reasons...One,they don't think he is Turkish and Islamic enough...Two,as Tim alluded to above,ERdogan is being drown closer and closer to the Military which would be much more comfortable with someone like Eroglu in charge of the negotiations...We have at most 18 months to find a solution,after that the Partitionists'dreams would most probably be realised...Agreed or not...

Bir,

You might be interested in looking at the following article (presuming you haven't already read it) by academic Mesut Yeğen that was published in the Radikal newspaper recently. I think he has an interesting take on the pact that appears to have been made between the establishment and the AKP.

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx? ... eID=910669

I made an English translation of this article and posted it at my website:

http://www.timdrayton.com/a33.html

Another theory doing the rounds is that the Americans brokered this pact behind the scenes because they could not risk too much instability in such a key geopolitical ally.

I am sure of one thing. This is closing the window of opportunity for Cyprus created by the willingness of the Erdoğan government to seriously rethink policy in various key areas, including that concerning the island.

[Tim Drayton]

Zan, ffs Ankara forced you to change even you surnames so that they look and sound Turkish!!!

Does Erdogan, Altintop, sound more Turkish than Hasan, Huseyin, Mehmet?

Or would you rather we used the old "fathers first name as the family name" sytem to make it very hard for us to trace our family tree further back than our grandparents?

Just on emore question, why does the GC surnames sound so Greek, like Karamanlis, Papadopoulos, Klerides?

Don't you think it is just a little strange to change our surnames now, right after Turkey occupied the north and brought the settlers in. It is designed to blend the TC's in with the settlers so that there will not be any distinctions between the two people. In another words, the TC's have been assimilated being Turkish and no longer Cypriots or even Turkish Cypriot for that matter. A total eradication of the TC culture from the island and you are helping in going along with Turkey's plans. For the last 400 years in Cyprus your family tree was never an issue and all of a sudden you are concerned about your family tree. ?? I honestly doubt your sincerity in your claim regarding your "family tree".

You learn something new every day. I imagined TCs must have adopted surnames at the same time as people in the 'motherland'; now I see that in 1974 something called the 'Surnames Rule' was implemented:

http://www.mahkemeler.net/mahkeme-web-t ... kemelerini

I love the surname Bullici that you encounter among Turkish Cypriots. It is very Cypriot.

I can only guess that your fathers first name is/was Drayton, am I right?

No, my father's surname was Drayton, as is mine. With all due respect, I do not think that this is relevant. The tradition of surnames dates back at least to the 14th century in England. Among Turkish Cypriots it does not. I have visited some Turkish Cypriot graveyards, and have been interested to see inscriptions such as "Mehmet oğlu Mustafa. .....'de vefat etti. Ruhuna fatiha." It surprised me because these graves postdate Mustafa Kemal's reforms in Turkey and, knowing that Turkish Cypriots in general keenly embraced these reforms, I would have imagined that they also adopted mainland Turkish style surnames at the same time as people in Turkey. This whole issue is rather new to me, but as I said above, I managed to track down the "Surname Rule" dated 19 April, 1974 - curiously predating the invasion - that I have mentioned above.

The text of this rule makes interesting reading. Article 3 reads:

Temel Kurallarla etkilenmiş haliyle Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti Anayasasının 2. maddesi tahtında Türk Cemaatına mensup her şahıs, öz adından başka bir soyadı taşır.

TRANSLATION
Pursuant to article 2 of the Republic of Cyprus Constitution as amended by the Basic Rules, every member of the Turkish community shall have a surname apart from his/her personal name.

In other words, Turkish Cypriots were required to have surnames under the 1960 constitution. The issue here is not about surnames per se.

I think Article 5 of the same rule makes its intention clear:

Uygunsuz soyadları.
Öz adlar, rütbe, memuriyet, aşiret ve yabancı ırk ve millet isimleri ile umumi adaba aykırı veya iğrenç ve gülünç olan adlar, soyadı olarak kullanılamaz.

TRANSLATION
Unsuitable surnames.
Personal names, the names of ranks, government posts, clans and foreign races and peoples along with names that offend public morality or are repulsive or ridiculous may not be used as surnames.

I suspect that the crux of the matter is foreign-sounding names. Did a section of the Turkish Cypriot population have Greek-sounding names and did Kemal Hordan consider it necessary to eliminate such names in his drive to "Turkify" the Turkish Cypriots? Just my guess. Most of you here lived though these events, so please tell me if my suspicion is right or wrong.

[Kifeas]

Zan,I have said this time and time again...Had Sampson been allowed to go on with his Mission nobody who stood in his way of achieving Enosis would be left standing...He probably was stupid enough to (once he ahd taken care of all the GCs he thought opposed his rejime) attempt to kill all the TCs in one night...There is no doubt about that in my mind..

Bir, I think you have a rather distorted impression of 1974.

I will give you some facts, and then I will let you rethink the above, in view of them.

1. Sampson neither planed nor executed the coup; neither participated in its execution nor he had prior knowledge of the exact plans of the Junta.

2. The coup was executed by the Junta of Ioannidis, through their officers in Cyprus that were in charge of the National Guard, with the sole (privately and publicly) stated purpose to eliminate Makarios from playing any role in the Cypriot-Greek-international affairs.

3. Upon Makarios overthrown, the junta found themselves with a situation in Cyprus in which they had to appoint another Cypriot, as the president of the Republic, since they did not want to be seen as overtaking Cyprus themselves, and outside the constitutional order.

4. In this pursuit, they first conducted Klerides, president of the Parliament, who was the next in line after Makarios, to constitutionally be in charge in the absence or death of the President. Klerides refused, and then they went to the attorney general, who also refused. They then went to the previously retired attorney general, who also refused. In the end, Ioannidis, the junta leader, remembered Sampson and his friendship he had with, during his term as a military officer in Cyprus under the Greek contingent, 10 years before (1964.) Sampson accepted.

5. Sampson was appointed, not to be any leader with the capacity or the right by Junta to be the decision maker, but instead as a last minute resort puppet. During the few days he lasted as appointed "president" he was ordered by Junta to declare that (a.) The TCs were in no danger as this was an internal issue among the GC community, and (b.) that he will continue the inter-communal talks with Denktash, from where they were left with him and Klerides in 1973.

All the above facts show that Sampson neither was at the time, nor that he was going to become a decision maker, neither that he had any particular plan or a mission on his own, since he was not the one that took the decision for the coup or was the man the junta had in mind when conceiving their coup against Makarios. I do not know what mission you are talking about, since Sampson was only a last resort, after various others turned down the proposal to take over. Somewhat, your above statement does not fit in with the facts!

[Tim Drayton]

The following quote from page 170 of The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig supports the above view:

Although the coup was codenamed Operation President, the junta did not seem to have put much thought into who would take over. Perhaps Makarios's escape spoiled their plans. If he had been killed, Clerides would have taken over automatically, depite his total opposition to the coup and the junta. The junta's men spent most of the morning knocking on doors trying to find someone willing to be President. 'They went to a judge of the High Court, who refused them,' said Clerides. 'They went to the house of the President of the Supreme Court, but he was abroad. In desperation, when they couldn't find anybody, they went and picked up Nicos Sampson.'
When the soldiers came for him, Sampson thought he was being arrested, but he was taken to a police headquarters and told he was going to be President.

[According to a footnote, the source of the Clerides quote is an 'Interview with Brendan O'Malley, 1985']

[Kifeas]

The following quote from page 170 of The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig supports the above view:

Although the coup was codenamed Operation President, the junta did not seem to have put much thought into who would take over. Perhaps Makarios's escape spoiled their plans. If he had been killed, Clerides would have taken over automatically, depite his total opposition to the coup and the junta. The junta's men spent most of the morning knocking on doors trying to find someone willing to be President. 'They went to a judge of the High Court, who refused them,' said Clerides. 'They went to the house of the President of the Supreme Court, but he was abroad. In desperation, when they couldn't find anybody, they went and picked up Nicos Sampson.'
When the soldiers came for him, Sampson thought he was being arrested, but he was taken to a police headquarters and told he was going to be President.

[According to a footnote, the source of the Clerides quote is an 'Interview with Brendan O'Malley, 1985']

Thanks Tim, I didn't know Brendan O'Malley had written about this, set aside so "graphically," nevertheless it is a well known fact among the GC society they way things evolved those days.

PS: What surprises me the most is how the TCs, living only a few blocks away and across the street from the GCs, have attained such a distorted view or knowledge of what had really happened, to the extent that some even believe that most of the 4-5 thousand GCs lost in 1974, had been murdered during the coup.