Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

As Kikapu is into his films and seems to be living in his Hollywood brain I thought at least he might appreciate this:

I didn't even had to open this clip, Zan, because I know the script by heart for the whole movie. Just what exactly was your point, or did you like the part where the new sheriff says, "excuse me while I whip this out".!

Zan, I don't know if you know, but I did open a thread couple of weeks ago for forum members to post their funny movie clips from YouTube, and so far, you have not participated, which surprised me, since I know you like movies also.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21019

[Kikapu]

I never believed that Sampson intended to kill all the GCs who opposed Enosis,No...That is why I used the word "dealt"...But given the chance he would have dealt with them in the tradition of all military juntas...Some killings,some imprisonments and torture etc to intimidate the remaining GCs to accept Enosis...Now,when that was taken care of,how do you think the Military in Greece and their puppet Sampson in Cyprus would have dealt with the TCs???? This is the crucial question which put the fear of death in every TC alive and able to think at the time...I was not one of them,as I ahd already escaped the civil war,but most of my family were and I have had long chats to them about it...They were in no doubt that Turkey had saved them from wholesale slaughter. Now you can argue that that fear was the result of brainwashing etc...But it was real for them,and after what they had gone through during 1964-74 period,it felt inevitable...That is all I am saying...That Turkey had other designs less noble than the safety of the TCs is beside the point...The TCs had suffered enough and gone through such emotional and physical pain as a result of their treatment by Makarios that it was unthinkable for most of them to accept the same isolation and intimidation under someone like Sampson...The biggest mistake our fellow Cypriots are doing now is to ignore or try to minimise what the 64-74 period had meant for the TCs...
I hope you are not going to join them in this...

Bir,

I hope you are not going to join them in this...

I wouldn't dream of it Bir. Sufferings of any human being in the hands of other Humans, particularly from those from the same country, is the worst kind. As you know, as a child in 1963, I had gone through this with my family as others did, TC's and GC's alike, whether it was in 1958, 1963, 1964-76, or 1974.

I was under the impression, that the topic subject was whether Sampson was going to kill all the TC's soon after the 1974 coup and not whether the TC's were scared for their lives or not. Of course the TC's were not trusting of the GC's during these times and despite Denktash telling them that everything was going to be fine for the TC's and that it was only a fight between the GC's and Greeks when the coup happened and I'm sure TC's in general had grave concerns. The only question we are discussing I thought, was whether those concerns of their safety was real or perceived from past actions. If we were trying to get into Sampson's head to try and figure out what he was going to do to the GC's who did not want Enosis to come about, and to the TC's who were in his way, then as it is done in Forensic Science, lets start from the beginning to perhaps give ourselves some insight to an event that did not happen, but could have happened.

Over many times, we have discussed on the forum, that it was the CIA that was responsible for getting the Junta in Greece to take action in 1974 to have a coup in Cyprus and kill Makarios because of his close ties with the Soviet Union at that time. We have also discussed many times, that Turkey was given the "green light" by the US to intervene because of the coup, and because of Turkey's intervention powers. We have also discussed many times, that Turkey was not allowed to intervene in 1963 and 1964 by the US, and so she did not, despite of the inter communal fighting (civil war) when in fact the TC's were waiting on Turkey. So why was it possible for Turkey to intervene in 1974 and not before, and the reason can only be, the USA.

So the CIA orcastrated the coup and at the same time, Turkey is given the "green light" to intervene. Nikitas has also a theory, that the coup and Turkey's intervention was designed to create double enosis, where the island would be partitioned along the same lines as it is now, but the Junta was double-crossed by Turkey who brought down the Coup to deny Greece any part of Cyprus, but kept the part that she intended, the north of Cyprus. Now, if we were to accept this scenario as to what was to be the final outcome of Cyprus between Greece and Turkey, the Junta was to kill Makarios so that the link between Cyprus and the Soviet Union would be broken, which would have served the USA's interest and in the meantime, Turkey and Greece would be a counter balance power on the island, while the British just protected their own interest by keeping their Bases. So in actuality, all three Guarantor powers were each taking a piece of the island for themselves. If this was the plan, then the only killings on the island was going to be during the initial days of the coup, which happened between the GC's and the coupist, between the GC's and the Turkish army when they invaded, which it also happened. As soon as double enosis was over, then the killing would have stopped, because their main objectives were gotten with a Three-way partitioning of the island.

I cannot see how Sampson could have ever gotten the chance to kill the TC's, even if he did not know of any double enosis arrangement between the Junta and Turkey, because Turkey knew that she had already gotten the "green light" from the USA, therefore, even if the TC's did not know about Turkey's eventual intervention, they had the right to be scared, but perhaps Denktash knew of what was going to unfold, but of course, could not tell the TC community. We now know of course, that double enosis did not occur but only what Turkey took as it was previously planned, so the odd man out from this Three-way partition, was Greece, even though I'm sure, that the Junta had big ideas of taking all of the island, except for the British Bases, but the USA had different ideas long before the coup started, which was to allow Turkey to intervene. It is no wonder that Turkey did not take the whole island. What was to stop them other than the USA and the British perhaps. Turkey met it's objectives by taking what was agreed with the USA, and at the same time, deny Greece a partition for herself, assuming they had agreed to double enosis between the two, but were double crossed by Turkey in the last minute, according to Nikitas. Whether there was a deal between Turkey and Greece for double enosis is not important for the safety of the TC's in the hands of Sampson, because Turkey was coming to Cyprus, come what may, which meant that the TC's were safe, even if they themselves did not know about it at the time. What we know today is, that Sampson did not wipe out the TC's in 1974, and trying to second guess history in a
"one dimensional view" by not knowing all the facts behind the scenes, we are just creating more questions than we could possibly have answers for without hard evidence.

[Piratis]

So you feel you should have the right to do anything you wish because you are the majority? What if you abuse this power against us?

No mate. The Cypriot people as a whole (you included) should have the right to democratically rule their own island and do what they wish, always with respect to the human rights of every Cypriot citizen.

And there is no "what if". You can't violate the rights of people based on "what if" imaginary scenarios.

Do you expect us to throw ourselves at the mercy of the GC majority in our own country?

"Your own country" is our own country for 10 times longer than it has been yours and we are the 80% majority on it. So if you didn't want to "throw yourselves" along with GCs then you simply shouldn't have come to our country. It is not our fault that you created a minority on our island.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, there is no question that TCs choose to be in conflict because they insisted on having unfair and undemocratic privileges which were granted to them by the British as a reward for helping them to oppress the Cypriot revolution.

In fact the conflict didn't start in 63, but in 58, when TCs attacked GCs. The GCs never had any intention to harm TCs, the only intention was to achieve freedom and self-determination for our island, something which the TCs didn't accept because collaborating with foreigners and receiving unfair and undemocratic privileges on our loss suited them better.

So say the Junta had not collapsed and they managed to keep Cyprus. The most that could happen is that Greece and Cyprus will be united. Nothing would happen to TCs (apart from losing the unfair privileges that they shouldn't have to begin with) just like nothing have happened to the Turks of Thrace during the many years of Junta rule.

All of us would suffer under the Junta, and when the Junta would eventually collapse, the Cypriot people would be able to democratically decide if they want to be independent or be part of Greece, with a democratic referendum.

Is that so bad Bir?

I think it is time for you to accept that the lives of TCs were never threatened. If any TCs were killed, this happened in conflicts which the TCs started with the aim to gain privileges on the loss of the rest of Cypriots.

The only thing that was threatened was the unfair privileges that were granted to TCs on our loss. Nothing more. Just look at the reaction of TCs to the 13 points proposed by Makarios.

That is a totally one-eyed view of our recent bloody history,Piratis...
If today,after all the revelations,you cannot bring yourself to have any empathy and compassion for the TCs and their plight during the terrible years of 63-74,how can you expect them to have had any sympathy or understanding of your Enosis dreams back then??? How can you expect them to put their trust and faith in you as compatriots...I see little point in talking to a wall...Or hit my head against it...WE,Cypriots, are doomed to live at the mercy of the foreign powers who had managed to play us against each other so skillfully and for so long...I am beginning to think we deserve nothing more...

Bir, tell me what the "revelations" are?

Isn't it a fact that the TCs started the conflicts because they insisted on having unfair privileges which were promised (and then granted) to them by foreigners on the expense of every other Cypriot, as a reward for helping those foreigners impose their plans on our island?

Nobody questions that in those conflicts TCs suffered as well. But the important thing is who and why started the conflicts.

I have no problem to show empathy to the TCs that were killed in those conflicts. I have done so many times. What I will not do is to excuse the TCs and their motives for starting those conflicts.

Still, I am willing to forgive TCs, in the same way I hope they can forgive us, as long as they finally accept that democracy (= majority rule + full human and minority rights) is the right way to take decisions for our island, and stop the brute force tactics and thinking of themselves as our Ottoman rulers that can overwrite the democratic decisions of the Cypriot people.

The revelations were the existence of the Akritas Plan, isolated killings and wholesale massacres of TCs,plus the plight of isolation and fear during the 64-74 period....And the proposals by the Greek Junta to Makarios for the final solution (total genocide of the TCs in one night)...Makarios himself is on record for threatening to kill all TCs overnight if Turkey dared to invade...Now please don't try to make light of all this...Just accept the fact that both sides are equal victims...You have the most annoying tendency to justify everything that happened to the TCs by claiming they started it first or more GCs suffered more and for longer or whatever you come up with at the time...In your mind you have not gotten over 1571...The TCs deserve eveything they get now,as far as you are concerned,because the Ottoman's dared to attack Cyprus 437 years ago
This is irrational,and only serves to discredit your arguments....I have many times talked about the role of the TMT and Turkey and the other international powers in our bloody saga....I have often distributed the blame as much as I can...Or better,tried not to blame us,Cypriots,for the problem...Not because I am in denial,but because it will not help us now to find an agreement...I am still waiting for you to say where the GCs went wrong in the whole equation...It looks as if I will wait forever...YOur mind is made up...Sorry,but empathy and compassion have to be both way...If you take my empathy,understanding and compassion and use it to beat my community on the head,the game has to stop somewhere...For me it stops here...

[BirKibrisli]

I never believed that Sampson intended to kill all the GCs who opposed Enosis,No...That is why I used the word "dealt"...But given the chance he would have dealt with them in the tradition of all military juntas...Some killings,some imprisonments and torture etc to intimidate the remaining GCs to accept Enosis...Now,when that was taken care of,how do you think the Military in Greece and their puppet Sampson in Cyprus would have dealt with the TCs???? This is the crucial question which put the fear of death in every TC alive and able to think at the time...I was not one of them,as I ahd already escaped the civil war,but most of my family were and I have had long chats to them about it...They were in no doubt that Turkey had saved them from wholesale slaughter. Now you can argue that that fear was the result of brainwashing etc...But it was real for them,and after what they had gone through during 1964-74 period,it felt inevitable...That is all I am saying...That Turkey had other designs less noble than the safety of the TCs is beside the point...The TCs had suffered enough and gone through such emotional and physical pain as a result of their treatment by Makarios that it was unthinkable for most of them to accept the same isolation and intimidation under someone like Sampson...The biggest mistake our fellow Cypriots are doing now is to ignore or try to minimise what the 64-74 period had meant for the TCs...
I hope you are not going to join them in this...

Bir,

I hope you are not going to join them in this...

I wouldn't dream of it Bir. Sufferings of any human being in the hands of other Humans, particularly from those from the same country, is the worst kind. As you know, as a child in 1963, I had gone through this with my family as others did, TC's and GC's alike, whether it was in 1958, 1963, 1964-76, or 1974.

I was under the impression, that the topic subject was whether Sampson was going to kill all the TC's soon after the 1974 coup and not whether the TC's were scared for their lives or not. Of course the TC's were not trusting of the GC's during these times and despite Denktash telling them that everything was going to be fine for the TC's and that it was only a fight between the GC's and Greeks when the coup happened and I'm sure TC's in general had grave concerns. The only question we are discussing I thought, was whether those concerns of their safety was real or perceived from past actions. If we were trying to get into Sampson's head to try and figure out what he was going to do to the GC's who did not want Enosis to come about, and to the TC's who were in his way, then as it is done in Forensic Science, lets start from the beginning to perhaps give ourselves some insight to an event that did not happen, but could have happened.

Over many times, we have discussed on the forum, that it was the CIA that was responsible for getting the Junta in Greece to take action in 1974 to have a coup in Cyprus and kill Makarios because of his close ties with the Soviet Union at that time. We have also discussed many times, that Turkey was given the "green light" by the US to intervene because of the coup, and because of Turkey's intervention powers. We have also discussed many times, that Turkey was not allowed to intervene in 1963 and 1964 by the US, and so she did not, despite of the inter communal fighting (civil war) when in fact the TC's were waiting on Turkey. So why was it possible for Turkey to intervene in 1974 and not before, and the reason can only be, the USA.

So the CIA orcastrated the coup and at the same time, Turkey is given the "green light" to intervene. Nikitas has also a theory, that the coup and Turkey's intervention was designed to create double enosis, where the island would be partitioned along the same lines as it is now, but the Junta was double-crossed by Turkey who brought down the Coup to deny Greece any part of Cyprus, but kept the part that she intended, the north of Cyprus. Now, if we were to accept this scenario as to what was to be the final outcome of Cyprus between Greece and Turkey, the Junta was to kill Makarios so that the link between Cyprus and the Soviet Union would be broken, which would have served the USA's interest and in the meantime, Turkey and Greece would be a counter balance power on the island, while the British just protected their own interest by keeping their Bases. So in actuality, all three Guarantor powers were each taking a piece of the island for themselves. If this was the plan, then the only killings on the island was going to be during the initial days of the coup, which happened between the GC's and the coupist, between the GC's and the Turkish army when they invaded, which it also happened. As soon as double enosis was over, then the killing would have stopped, because their main objectives were gotten with a Three-way partitioning of the island.

I cannot see how Sampson could have ever gotten the chance to kill the TC's, even if he did not know of any double enosis arrangement between the Junta and Turkey, because Turkey knew that she had already gotten the "green light" from the USA, therefore, even if the TC's did not know about Turkey's eventual intervention, they had the right to be scared, but perhaps Denktash knew of what was going to unfold, but of course, could not tell the TC community. We now know of course, that double enosis did not occur but only what Turkey took as it was previously planned, so the odd man out from this Three-way partition, was Greece, even though I'm sure, that the Junta had big ideas of taking all of the island, except for the British Bases, but the USA had different ideas long before the coup started, which was to allow Turkey to intervene. It is no wonder that Turkey did not take the whole island. What was to stop them other than the USA and the British perhaps. Turkey met it's objectives by taking what was agreed with the USA, and at the same time, deny Greece a partition for herself, assuming they had agreed to double enosis between the two, but were double crossed by Turkey in the last minute, according to Nikitas. Whether there was a deal between Turkey and Greece for double enosis is not important for the safety of the TC's in the hands of Sampson, because Turkey was coming to Cyprus, come what may, which meant that the TC's were safe, even if they themselves did not know about it at the time. What we know today is, that Sampson did not wipe out the TC's in 1974, and trying to second guess history in a
"one dimensional view" by not knowing all the facts behind the scenes, we are just creating more questions than we could possibly have answers for without hard evidence.

Hi Kikapu,
AS you can read between the lines,I am increasingly frustrated by certain people on this Forum for putting the entire blame on the TC side...There are those who expected the TCs to side with the Makarios supporters during the Coup, for God' sake..AS far as I am concerned those people are from another planet..They have no idea what was the real situation of the TCs at the time...

I have little to argue against your post above...The situation was of course very complecated and we will never know the whole truth...For me there is one unchangeable fact...The TCs always drew the short stick,both during the bloody times and afterwards politically and propaganda wise..

That there are people on this Forum still thinking that the TC brought everything upon themselves and deserve no sympathy or empathy proves my point...Maybe I shouldn't expect it from the GCs...Maybe we are all collectively too traumatised by the whole mindless conflict to be objective about anything...Maybe Cypriots collectively need to spend some treatment dealing with this national P.T.S.D (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) before we can be sensible about anything...I don't know...But this I know...It would be nice if you can show some empathy and compassion for the TCs every now and then...It would mean a great deal to some of us...

[Piratis]

The revelations were the existence of the Akritas Plan, isolated killings and wholesale massacres of TCs,plus the plight of isolation and fear during the 64-74 period....And the proposals by the Greek Junta to Makarios for the final solution (total genocide of the TCs in one night)...Makarios himself is on record for threatening to kill all TCs overnight if Turkey dared to invade...Now please don't try to make light of all this...Just accept the fact that both sides are equal victims...You have the most annoying tendency to justify everything that happened to the TCs by claiming they started it first or more GCs suffered more and for longer or whatever you come up with at the time...In your mind you have not gotten over 1571...The TCs deserve eveything they get now,as far as you are concerned,because the Ottoman's dared to attack Cyprus 437 years ago
This is irrational,and only serves to discredit your arguments....I have many times talked about the role of the TMT and Turkey and the other international powers in our bloody saga....I have often distributed the blame as much as I can...Or better,tried not to blame us,Cypriots,for the problem...Not because I am in denial,but because it will not help us now to find an agreement...I am still waiting for you to say where the GCs went wrong in the whole equation...It looks as if I will wait forever...YOur mind is made up...Sorry,but empathy and compassion have to be both way...If you take my empathy,understanding and compassion and use it to beat my community on the head,the game has to stop somewhere...For me it stops here...

Bir, the very forgiving Greek Cypriots forgave you for the 300+ centuries of oppression against us. This is evident from the fact that until the 1950s Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots lived together peacefully, often in mixed villages, without any kind of conflict.

The new foreign rulers were the British, and therefore we fought against them, not against you, for our freedom and self-determination. The Cypriot people had the 100% right for self-determination after being denied their freedom by British, Turks and many others.

Unfortunately the TCs didn't seem to appreciate the fact that we forgave them for their oppressive rule against us, and merely 80 years after the Ottoman rule ended they found themselves once again collaborating with a foreign ruler, attacking Greek Cypriots, and trying to again deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination.

When I say that Turks started it, I don't mean just 1571. I mostly mean 1958, when they started the inter-communal conflict seeking gains on the loss of the rest of the Cypriot people. You conveniently start history in 1963, the Akritas plan etc, and you forget that all those things were simply our reaction to your attacks and your collaboration with foreigners to deprive us from our freedom and gain unfair gains on our loss.

As I said earlier until you attacked us in the 50s we have been living peacefully together. Were there any "Akritas plans" or anything else until you attacked us Bir? No. But there was the Taksim plan, which clearly described the annihilation of all Greek Cypriots from half of Cyprus. Instead of playing the game of the British and accepting their gifts (gains on our loss) in order to attack us, you should have just accepted that the destiny of Cyprus should be decided democratically and peacefully by the Cypriot people themselves. Then Cyprus instead of being part of the British or Ottoman empire, would become part of the Greek state, which is what the vast majority of Cypriots wanted, and GCs and TCs would continue to live along with each other peacefully.

Apparently for you it was fine for Cyprus to be under the British or Ottomans against the will of the vast majority of Cypriots, but it was not fine for Cyprus to be part of the Greek state which is what most Cypriots wanted. It also appears that you were missing the Ottoman style privillages that you had over your "Christian slaves" and therefore the gifts that the British were offering to you if you collaborate with them prooved too appealing to resist.

Since you attacked us, the only thing we have done is to fight back for our rights that you and the British took away from us. Another chance to make things right was given to you in 1963 by accepting the 13 points of Makarios, but again you insisted that your "super race" should have Ottoman style privileges on the expense of every other Cypriot, and you choose conflict instead.

All we were seeking then, is what we seek now: Freedom and democracy. If you had accepted this things from the beginning (1950s) instead of attacking us, then there would be no conflict to begin with, and no suffering or casualties on either side. For as long as you fight us, and collaborate with foreigners, to deny to us our freedom and take away our rights or land, then we will fight back, and unfortunately in such conflicts people die and suffer. But what alternative do we have? To surrender to the Turks and give up democracy, human rights and freedom? Sorry Bir, but that is not an option. We have been slaves for long enough. No more.

We don't need neither compassion nor empathy. What we demand is respect for our rights. Respect our rights, we will respect your rights (not to be confused with the super privileges granted to you by invaders) and then we can be friends and live in peace. We have proven in the past that we are forgiving, and we will do it again, as long as our rights are respected. I hope you can do the same. This is the only true solution, that will allow Cyprus to be a modern democratic EU country with equal citizens and with full human and minority rights as in any other EU country.

If however you keep trying to take away our lands and rights, then we have no other option than to keep fighting back, until justice is served.

[Kikapu]

Hi Kikapu,
AS you can read between the lines,I am increasingly frustrated by certain people on this Forum for putting the entire blame on the TC side...There are those who expected the TCs to side with the Makarios supporters during the Coup, for God' sake..AS far as I am concerned those people are from another planet..They have no idea what was the real situation of the TCs at the time...

I have little to argue against your post above...The situation was of course very complecated and we will never know the whole truth...For me there is one unchangeable fact...The TCs always drew the short stick,both during the bloody times and afterwards politically and propaganda wise..

That there are people on this Forum still thinking that the TC brought everything upon themselves and deserve no sympathy or empathy proves my point...Maybe I shouldn't expect it from the GCs...Maybe we are all collectively too traumatised by the whole mindless conflict to be objective about anything...Maybe Cypriots collectively need to spend some treatment dealing with this national P.T.S.D (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) before we can be sensible about anything...I don't know...But this I know...It would be nice if you can show some empathy and compassion for the TCs every now and then...It would mean a great deal to some of us...

...It would be nice if you can show some empathy and compassion for the TCs every now and then...It would mean a great deal to some of us...

Bir,

My empathy and compassion to the TC's is always there Bir. It is the leaders of my TC community that I have a problems with, who have used our people for their own gains. Today is no different during these negotiations where we have a BBF based on Federation which is what I have been supporting for a very long time that I believe is the best solution for our people where the rule of law of the western values will be applied with every one's Democratic and Human Rights respected. My problems are with those from our community who are only interested in partition to set up our own self rule, which will not bring the values to our people I have outlined above, on top of which, the "war" between the TC's and GC's will never be over, if forming a state on partitioned land that 200,000 GC's will always have claim over it. This is why I argue with those who may think that they are doing good for our community with their unrealistic demands, but they are only seeing things from their own point of view and not seeing the big picture as a Cypriot.

I may sound hard at times towards the partitionist and our leaders, but you will not find me being hard on our people, because they themselves are caught between a rock and a hard place. I do not want our people to be known as thieves of the west or criminals, or invaders, or violators of Human Rights, Democracy and International laws. We have a very unique opportunity to become part of Europe for our people to enjoy the political freedoms and rights and economic success that will never be given to them if partition occurs and kept out of the EU, and they are assimilated by Turkey. We as a TC community will disappear over time, and to some of the people I argue with, seems totally fine with them if that were to happen. To these people I cannot have empathy or compassion for, because they are going to destroy the same thing they think they are protecting, the TC community, that I want to protect. I'm a realist and I try to see things from a different level than others may do, and when I see that our leadership accepts the violations of Human and Democratic Rights of other Cypriots as normal, then I have a duty to speak against such violations.

I have always viewed Cypriots as one people, despite how some may feel. I want the best possible outcome for the TC's and GC's during these settlement talks if we are to live as one people and one country, and the only way to do this, is to have respect for Democracy, Human Rights and International laws, or else there will always be problems between the TC's and GC's if we were to have a system of "seperate but equal" or just a another "apartheid" type of system with one side feeling they have been wronged politically in order to benefit one community over the other. We all had someone in our schools who were the "teachers pet" that other students resented, except for the "pet student" of course. This is the same thing what we had with the 1960 Constitution which brought about all the problems we have in Cyprus today.

The problem is not because of GC's and TC's that can't live together, because you can take the Cyprus's 1960 constitution to any country in the world and apply it there, and you will get the same results there also, where the majority would recent the minority because of unbalanced system of justice, and as soon as that is done, it is all downhill from there on to have a country of one people. Some countries took centuries to correct their injustices, but eventually to become a Democratic countries, but not before with many heart aches in between. We have had our share in Cyprus also, although very little in comparison to many other countries in the world, but now we have a chance to set course to be on the right side of "history" for the future, by allowing Cypriots to rule their own land and people, and with a north and south states in a True Federation, the TC's will be able to keep their community as one , and that is my wish for our people..

[Tim Drayton]

There is really one quick way out of our predicament...For Talat to dissolve the trnc and demand to return to the ROC under the 1960 agreements and Constitution...But he has neither the wisdom nor the power to do that...

I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened if Turkey leaves the tap turned off for too long… the man is getting very desperate.

The sad thing is,GR, Turkey thinks Talat has grown too big for his boots,and cannot be trusted any longer...They are getting ready to dump him for Dervish Eroglu,an uncompromising Turkish nationalist...You might yet get to miss Talat...

Perhaps it’s an opportunity for the RoC to bail him out… what’s that figure again 500m p/a? Surely the RoC can pay that and buy them off…

This is no laughing matter,GR!

The Military,the Establishment,and the "deep sate" never trusted TAlat in the first place....Now the AKP government are having second thoughts...
Probably for two reasons...One,they don't think he is Turkish and Islamic enough...Two,as Tim alluded to above,ERdogan is being drown closer and closer to the Military which would be much more comfortable with someone like Eroglu in charge of the negotiations...We have at most 18 months to find a solution,after that the Partitionists'dreams would most probably be realised...Agreed or not...

Bir,

You might be interested in looking at the following article (presuming you haven't already read it) by academic Mesut Yeğen that was published in the Radikal newspaper recently. I think he has an interesting take on the pact that appears to have been made between the establishment and the AKP.

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx? ... eID=910669

I made an English translation of this article and posted it at my website:

http://www.timdrayton.com/a33.html

Another theory doing the rounds is that the Americans brokered this pact behind the scenes because they could not risk too much instability in such a key geopolitical ally.

I am sure of one thing. This is closing the window of opportunity for Cyprus created by the willingness of the Erdoğan government to seriously rethink policy in various key areas, including that concerning the island.

Tim,thank you for that link...No I had not read it...
It is interesting but not unexpected...AKP and Erdogan finally saw the light...The light was that they had no chance of staying in power if they threatened the establishment....So they gave up on their "Islamic" principles and embraced their Turkishness a bit more firmly..I feel sorry for Turkey,but as they say "You get the government you deserve!"...

I hesitate to write this...but I hope you realise the Talat they mention in this article is not Mehmet Ali...It was of course Talat Pasha who was the effective ruler of the Ottomans in Abdulhamit's time...Sorry If I am stating the obvious...

Bir, a further important point is that, in my view, the AKP is on its way out. I base this conclusion on the observation that the Turkish electorate always rewards the ruling party when times are good (hence the AKP's resounding victory at the last elections) and punishes it at times of crisis. Turkey is going to be hit hard by the current economic crisis, which I believe has only just begun, which makes me quite sure that Erdoğan is already history.

I am reminded of a live interview years ago on BBC television. Veteran political interviewer Robin Day was questioning John Nott, Minister of Defence in Thatcher's government, and he began a question that went something like this, "Can you seriously, a mere here-today-gone-tomorrow politicain, tell us ...". At that John Nott took offence, stood up and walked off in a huff, all on live television! The point is that everywhere politicians of various hues come and go, but the establishment remains in place behind the secenes. The Kemalist elite looks set to remain in place and fight its corner in the next battle.

People who care about the future of Cyprus need to start thinking about the consequences of this for the island.

PS - I did know which Talat was being referred to, but thanks for pointing it out all the same.

[Viewpoint]

So you feel you should have the right to do anything you wish because you are the majority? What if you abuse this power against us?

No mate. The Cypriot people as a whole (you included) should have the right to democratically rule their own island and do what they wish, always with respect to the human rights of every Cypriot citizen.

And there is no "what if". You can't violate the rights of people based on "what if" imaginary scenarios.

Do you expect us to throw ourselves at the mercy of the GC majority in our own country?

"Your own country" is our own country for 10 times longer than it has been yours and we are the 80% majority on it. So if you didn't want to "throw yourselves" along with GCs then you simply shouldn't have come to our country. It is not our fault that you created a minority on our island.

So in short yes we have to allow you to do as you please whether or not it places our future in danger or not, leave ourselves to the mercy of the "majority".

[Piratis]

So you feel you should have the right to do anything you wish because you are the majority? What if you abuse this power against us?

No mate. The Cypriot people as a whole (you included) should have the right to democratically rule their own island and do what they wish, always with respect to the human rights of every Cypriot citizen.

And there is no "what if". You can't violate the rights of people based on "what if" imaginary scenarios.

Do you expect us to throw ourselves at the mercy of the GC majority in our own country?

"Your own country" is our own country for 10 times longer than it has been yours and we are the 80% majority on it. So if you didn't want to "throw yourselves" along with GCs then you simply shouldn't have come to our country. It is not our fault that you created a minority on our island.

So in short yes we have to allow you to do as you please whether or not it places our future in danger or not, leave ourselves to the mercy of the "majority".

Or you can go back from where you came from. It is not us who asked from you to come to an island with a Greek majority.