Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

GR
One thing has been bugging me for years..
The Cypriot coupists who took part in coup d'état and killed fellow GC's were all known were they not?
Has any coupist been trialed after 1974 for causing death to other Cypriots between 15th -20 july 1974?

If not........WHY??

Samson was jailed for many years. The same happened with the Junta generals in Greece.

Is that all? What about the Cypriot coupists who should have been held responsible?
Is it not a crime to organise a coup d'état against the government?
Is it not a crime to kill fellow countrymen in the process?

It is important to understand who the actual coupists were, in order to administer the blame. The coup was carried out by the National Guard, which was a Greek Cypriot Army, but whose officers at the time (i.e. those in the highest ranks,) were military personnel seconded to the National Guard from the Greek Army. Cyprus -not having a military tradition itself, did not at the time have a sufficient number of Cypriot officers with considerable experience, (i.e. adequate number of years in service,) to be qualified in filling out the highest ranks of the pyramid. Those Greek officers (not all of them but a certain group,) since they belonged at the same time to the Greek Army (they were receiving double salaries -one from Greece one from the RoC,) were also loyal and under the command of the junta generals that were ruling Greece at the time, i.e. to those who planned and decided to coup against Makarios. In a nutshell, a Cypriot army acting under the orders of foreign (Greek) officers turned against its own government and overthrew it. Who do you blame and held accountable, the regular Cypriot soldiers that executed the coup, or the officers and the regime in Greece that gave the orders to these soldiers?

Kifeas
I understand what you are saying,but according to the casuality list posted by GR there is only 5 Greek military personel...am i missing something here?

Iceman, didn't I say that the troops that attacked the presidential palace and other posts in Nicosia, where Cypriot troops acting under the orders of their ("Greek") officers?

You did,but i find it very hard to accept how these men under the command of Greek officers be so insane as to kill their compatriots!!!
I also don't accept as an excuse that they were under military command,so they should be regarded innocent.
They (coupist Cypriots) were armed grown up men and should have stood up against committing these crimes against their own people...Since they did not, i believe they are guilty and should have been punished..

“Grown up” men (conscripts) of 18-20 years old, that is what they were!

[Kifeas]

Iceman, if there is any Cypriot responsibility, it all belongs to Makarios and his government, for entrusting the National Guard to officers loyal to another foreign "government," a CIA backed Junta regime for this matter; and not to the 18-20 year old young conscripts that were called by law (and without payment) to serve their country under those officers!

[iceman]

GR
One thing has been bugging me for years..
The Cypriot coupists who took part in coup d'état and killed fellow GC's were all known were they not?
Has any coupist been trialed after 1974 for causing death to other Cypriots between 15th -20 july 1974?

If not........WHY??

Samson was jailed for many years. The same happened with the Junta generals in Greece.

Is that all? What about the Cypriot coupists who should have been held responsible?
Is it not a crime to organise a coup d'état against the government?
Is it not a crime to kill fellow countrymen in the process?

It is important to understand who the actual coupists were, in order to administer the blame. The coup was carried out by the National Guard, which was a Greek Cypriot Army, but whose officers at the time (i.e. those in the highest ranks,) were military personnel seconded to the National Guard from the Greek Army. Cyprus -not having a military tradition itself, did not at the time have a sufficient number of Cypriot officers with considerable experience, (i.e. adequate number of years in service,) to be qualified in filling out the highest ranks of the pyramid. Those Greek officers (not all of them but a certain group,) since they belonged at the same time to the Greek Army (they were receiving double salaries -one from Greece one from the RoC,) were also loyal and under the command of the junta generals that were ruling Greece at the time, i.e. to those who planned and decided to coup against Makarios. In a nutshell, a Cypriot army acting under the orders of foreign (Greek) officers turned against its own government and overthrew it. Who do you blame and held accountable, the regular Cypriot soldiers that executed the coup, or the officers and the regime in Greece that gave the orders to these soldiers?

Kifeas
I understand what you are saying,but according to the casuality list posted by GR there is only 5 Greek military personel...am i missing something here?

Iceman, didn't I say that the troops that attacked the presidential palace and other posts in Nicosia, where Cypriot troops acting under the orders of their ("Greek") officers?

You did,but i find it very hard to accept how these men under the command of Greek officers be so insane as to kill their compatriots!!!
I also don't accept as an excuse that they were under military command,so they should be regarded innocent.
They (coupist Cypriots) were armed grown up men and should have stood up against committing these crimes against their own people...Since they did not, i believe they are guilty and should have been punished..

“Grown up” men (conscripts) of 18-20 years old, that is what they were!

Somewhow,i think they were older coupists also who used these kids...
Was there no gunfight between civillian Cypriots?

[Kifeas]

If Makarios was any cunning and devious (as many TCs tend to claim,) he shouldn’t have send that letter to Gizikis and the Greek Junta, on the 5th of July 1974, asking them to withdraw their officers from Cyprus due to the fact that they were undermining him and plotting a coup against him. He should have instead send his presidential guard in a coordinated night raid to arrest them all in their beds, and ship them in a container back to Greece, replacing them at the same time with Cypriot officers loyal to him –despite and regardless the lack of experience they may have had at the time.

[Kifeas]

GR
One thing has been bugging me for years..
The Cypriot coupists who took part in coup d'état and killed fellow GC's were all known were they not?
Has any coupist been trialed after 1974 for causing death to other Cypriots between 15th -20 july 1974?

If not........WHY??

Samson was jailed for many years. The same happened with the Junta generals in Greece.

Is that all? What about the Cypriot coupists who should have been held responsible?
Is it not a crime to organise a coup d'état against the government?
Is it not a crime to kill fellow countrymen in the process?

It is important to understand who the actual coupists were, in order to administer the blame. The coup was carried out by the National Guard, which was a Greek Cypriot Army, but whose officers at the time (i.e. those in the highest ranks,) were military personnel seconded to the National Guard from the Greek Army. Cyprus -not having a military tradition itself, did not at the time have a sufficient number of Cypriot officers with considerable experience, (i.e. adequate number of years in service,) to be qualified in filling out the highest ranks of the pyramid. Those Greek officers (not all of them but a certain group,) since they belonged at the same time to the Greek Army (they were receiving double salaries -one from Greece one from the RoC,) were also loyal and under the command of the junta generals that were ruling Greece at the time, i.e. to those who planned and decided to coup against Makarios. In a nutshell, a Cypriot army acting under the orders of foreign (Greek) officers turned against its own government and overthrew it. Who do you blame and held accountable, the regular Cypriot soldiers that executed the coup, or the officers and the regime in Greece that gave the orders to these soldiers?

Kifeas
I understand what you are saying,but according to the casuality list posted by GR there is only 5 Greek military personel...am i missing something here?

Iceman, didn't I say that the troops that attacked the presidential palace and other posts in Nicosia, where Cypriot troops acting under the orders of their ("Greek") officers?

You did,but i find it very hard to accept how these men under the command of Greek officers be so insane as to kill their compatriots!!!
I also don't accept as an excuse that they were under military command,so they should be regarded innocent.
They (coupist Cypriots) were armed grown up men and should have stood up against committing these crimes against their own people...Since they did not, i believe they are guilty and should have been punished..

“Grown up” men (conscripts) of 18-20 years old, that is what they were!

Somewhow,i think they were older coupists also who used these kids...
Was there no gunfight between civillian Cypriots?

Okay, after the military coup succeeded in its objective to defeat the pro-government forces (presidential guard and other groups loyal to Makarios,) and after most of the fighting ended, with the concurrent appointment of Samson by junta as the acting president; those Eoka B’ elements that were previously held in prisons or were hiding in basements and caves to avoid the chasing of Makarios, came out and started pretending the “guardians” of the “revolution,” mainly by patrolling villages and giving orders to other civilians, and even arresting known pro-Makarios supporters. However, they were not the ones that have started or executed the coup, nor they were the ones done any of the fighting.

[Viewpoint]

Its all Greek to us, how do we know those names are not just made up?

[Nikitas]

Iceman asked:

"Has any coupist been trialed after 1974 for causing death to other Cypriots between 15th -20 july 1974?

If not........WHY??"

A private prosecution was initiated in late 1974 or early 1975 against persons known to have killed GCs during the coup as well as some coup planners. A nolle prosequi order was entered by the Attorney General.

In Greece a lengthy investigation was carried out by the relevant committee of the Greek Parliament and the file was investigated in depth but never made publis.

My investigation shows that if cases were to reach the courtroom then the defendants would put up the defence of following orders. In turn this would lead up the chain of command till the people who will have to reveal that there was a plan, and agreements with foreign powers. In effect there was a multi power conspiracy against a sovereign nation with the intent to dissolve it and divide its territory. Obviously such a plan does not get drafted or carried out without the participation of other powers. Hence the decisions to stop prosecutions both in Greece and Cyprus and the closure of the files.

The above is corroborated by the reactions of Greek dictator Ioannides when he learned of the invasion. ALso by the statements of former National Guard commander Georgitsis, and the orders given by mainland Greek officers to NG men during the ceasefire arrangements iin July 1974.

[iceman]

Okay, after the military coup succeeded in its objective to defeat the pro-government forces (presidential guard and other groups loyal to Makarios,) and after most of the fighting ended, with the concurrent appointment of Samson by junta as the acting president; those Eoka B’ elements that were previously held in prisons or were hiding in basements and caves to avoid the chasing of Makarios, came out and started pretending the “guardians” of the “revolution,” mainly by patrolling villages and giving orders to other civilians, and even arresting known pro-Makarios supporters. However, they were not the ones that have started or executed the coup, nor they were the ones done any of the fighting.

So are you saying these "Eoka B elements" who came out of hiding were not responsible for any deaths those days?

[Nikitas]

As to Zan's post about GCs inflating the casualty figures, the best source to establish the truth is Sevgul Uludag who reports on the atrocities carried out by both sides. Her reports leave no doubt as to the extent of massacres and the numbers.

It is time all of us face the facts. The casualties were within the scale of a small civil war till the invasion.From that time on they jumped to reflect the level of violence wrought by a fully equipped NATO army. This should make us all think about a possible future conflict when both sides will be equipped with much heavier arms than those used in 1974.

[Kifeas]

Okay, after the military coup succeeded in its objective to defeat the pro-government forces (presidential guard and other groups loyal to Makarios,) and after most of the fighting ended, with the concurrent appointment of Samson by junta as the acting president; those Eoka B’ elements that were previously held in prisons or were hiding in basements and caves to avoid the chasing of Makarios, came out and started pretending the “guardians” of the “revolution,” mainly by patrolling villages and giving orders to other civilians, and even arresting known pro-Makarios supporters. However, they were not the ones that have started or executed the coup, nor they were the ones done any of the fighting.

So are you saying these "Eoka B elements" who came out of hiding were not responsible for any deaths those days?

If not none, very few, Iceman! Nearly all of the above victims occurred during the various fights that took place between the National Guard (army) and the pro-Makarios forces (police and presidential guard.) The Eoka B' elements were responsible mainly for the numerous arrests of known pro-Makarios supporters (police and civilians,) and also for a number of tortures of some of those arrested, after the coup. You have to remember that many of those Eoka B' elements (not unjustifiably) were also tortured by police and the presidential guard, in the period before the coup, when they were arrested for their undermining actions and bomb attacks or assassination attempts against Makarios; therefore many of their actions after the coup (arrests and torturing) where directed mainly against those that previously chased them, in acts of revenge.