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SOYER: I’M NOT STANDING UP FOR A CONFEDERATION’

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:06 am

Paphitis wrote:
zan wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
zan wrote:
Bananiot wrote:I remember Christofias admitting that we are just as responsible for the events in 1963 and the nationalists jumping on him like vultures. The Turkish Cypriot mutiny story still hold steadfast.

I remember Christofias pointing out that in 1959 we formed the RoC in equal partnership with the Turkish Cypriots and the nationalists becoming ... Turks (a phrase we use to indicate that someone is really angry) with rage.

I remember Christofias saying that the Annan Plan could be the solution of our problem provided certain things were changed so that the Greek Cypriot community could accept it. Instead, he went along with the nationalists and rejected the Annan Plan as a basis for the negotiations, before the start of the negotiations, forcing the other side to move to a tough stance that makes life difficult for everyone. All these because he wanted to appease the nationalists.


I know I don't have to lecture you on how the same is happening in the North Bananiot but I can say thank you for bringing some sanity into this Forum......


And here we have it folks. The most "nationalistic Turk" on this forum giving thanks to Bananiot. :lol:


And then of course we have the likes of Bafidis...... :lol: :lol: :lol: The most outspoken does not qualify me as the most nationalistic dear heart..... :roll:


So now you deny that you are a "nationalist Turk" favouring permanant partition. :lol: Are you telling us that you are a moderate? :lol:

Sorry Zanny...But Karma or Iceman, you are not. :lol:



Your last post before you left the Forum for good :roll: said that "you had come to the conclusion"!!!!!!! I have come to the conclusion also.......What I want and what I think is achievable or maybe even what should be done just so the TCs can at last get on with their lives is common sense.....If that makes me a nationalist in your eyes then so be it.......I have been called worse!!! 8)
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:22 am

zan wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
zan wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
zan wrote:
Bananiot wrote:I remember Christofias admitting that we are just as responsible for the events in 1963 and the nationalists jumping on him like vultures. The Turkish Cypriot mutiny story still hold steadfast.

I remember Christofias pointing out that in 1959 we formed the RoC in equal partnership with the Turkish Cypriots and the nationalists becoming ... Turks (a phrase we use to indicate that someone is really angry) with rage.

I remember Christofias saying that the Annan Plan could be the solution of our problem provided certain things were changed so that the Greek Cypriot community could accept it. Instead, he went along with the nationalists and rejected the Annan Plan as a basis for the negotiations, before the start of the negotiations, forcing the other side to move to a tough stance that makes life difficult for everyone. All these because he wanted to appease the nationalists.


I know I don't have to lecture you on how the same is happening in the North Bananiot but I can say thank you for bringing some sanity into this Forum......


And here we have it folks. The most "nationalistic Turk" on this forum giving thanks to Bananiot. :lol:


And then of course we have the likes of Bafidis...... :lol: :lol: :lol: The most outspoken does not qualify me as the most nationalistic dear heart..... :roll:


So now you deny that you are a "nationalist Turk" favouring permanant partition. :lol: Are you telling us that you are a moderate? :lol:

Sorry Zanny...But Karma or Iceman, you are not. :lol:



Your last post before you left the Forum for good :roll: said that "you had come to the conclusion"!!!!!!! I have come to the conclusion also.......What I want and what I think is achievable or maybe even what should be done just so the TCs can at last get on with their lives is common sense.....If that makes me a nationalist in your eyes then so be it.......I have been called worse!!! 8)


Common sense will prevail when the island is liberated and the 200,000 refugees return to the rightful homes. Your common sense is to legitimise what you have stolen from the indigenous people.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:41 am

Paphidis wrote:

What is disgraceful post. You call DIKO and EDEK nationalists because they do not accept a BBF solution, which is really not a BBF solution but is a BBC solution or "Confederacy". You believe that they are nationalist because they wish to implement the EU Acquis across the whole island, should a solution occur, and because they stand and fight for basic human and democratic rights such as 1 man one vote, and proportional representation. You call them nationalist because they do not accept any external influence and control by Turkey, and oppose any Treaty of Guarantee from Turkey. You call them nationalist because they reject the Annan Plan, as did 76% of the electorate, as it undermined conventional human and democratic rights as accepted all over the world.

Unfortunately for you, President Christofias also rejects the Annan Plan. He did say only recently that this plan was "dead and buried". I guess this makes President Christofias a nationalist as well.

As for the events of 63, no one has ever denied mutual culpability. However, you need to put things into context. It was the TCs that withdrew from the RoC Government when Makarios tried to introduce a 13 point constitutional amendment plan. This plan was introduced because Cyprus did not have effective Governance. The TCs had veto rights which effectively resulted in 18% of the population controlling the whole Government. Where is the justice in that?

You also forget, quite conveniently, that it was the TCs that FIRST engaged the GCs in intercommunal violence in 1958. You also, quite conveniently fail to mention that in 63, the TCs were FORCED into enclaves by their very own TMT, to make it easier for them to further their partitionist plans from the 50s.

Recently, a constitutional expert described the Cyprus Constitution of 1960 as "the most ludicrous and ineffective document". He described it as "unworkable" and also stated that Makarios was justified in trying to overhaul the constitution. These are the words of neutral Australian analysts and experts on Cyprus, and who are acting as advisors to the UN Envoy on Cyprus.


Those of us who live in this island know who the nationalists are and furthermore, know and comprehend the irreversible damage they have done to Cyprus. These people cover their nationalism in a veil of patriotic talk which is nothing more but fancy words with no content whatsoever and point to palatable targets which are not feasible.

I would be the first to cheer for a unitary Cyprus but we have lost the right for such a solution because of the stupidity of our nationalists. History tells us that every time we ent for the desirable we ended up crying over debris. The ONLY PATRIOTIC THING TO DO IS TO GO FOR THE FEASIBLE! Anything else will destroy us for good this time round. Thus, all those forces that are still high on the clouds are nothing else than sick nationalists who will destroy Cyprus once and for all, if they get it their way again.

Your history sucks, Paphitis, big time. Did you know, for example, that the bomb at the Marcos Drakos statue in September 1963 was planted by the "Organisation" in order to incite hatred against the Turkish Cypriots? Did you know that the burning of the Ayios Kasianos Gymnasium, around the same period was also the work of the "Organisation"? Did you know that Makarios gave his constitutional changes to the Turkish Ambassador but when the Ambassador came back to see him he would not accept him? In other words, the changes were not for debate but they were to be imposed on the Turkish Cypriot community. Did you know that our patriots played into the hands of the TMT by intimidating, murdering and displacing ordinary Turkish Cypriots and thus sending them to the warm embrace of TMT and Turkey for protection?

We played the same game as TMT and we paid the penalty because the Turkish nationalism is much stronger than ours, but of course, our bigots, like all bigots, do not consider rationality. We thought that by taking sick people out of their hospital beds and throwing them down wells, we were serving our national cause. Guess what Paphitis. We know all too well who these people are. At the time they sounded very much like you and it goes to prove that when these people get into a position of power they are capable of the worst crimes.
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Postby Nikitas » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:07 pm

Bananiot,

You are confusing me again. Having agreed on a Federal solution, we now face demands that do not make sense in that context. Are you saying that it is realistic to say YES to these demands for separate sovereignty, for separate FIRs, the ability of each (supposedly) federal state to enter into separate international agreements? Isn't a yes to these demands the same as partition?

You seem to excuse this incoherent approach of Talat because we were wrong in 1963 and rejected the Annan plan. This is a non argument. If that is the approach then the only logical, according to you, approach would be to accept all demands posed by Talat and Turkey.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:38 pm

No Nikitas, I am talking about the voices against BBF within the Greek Cypriot community. We should be clear in our targets (the one man one vote business and mutual ballot papers are just gimmics that will not be considered) as defined by the so called summary of the National Council (under Papadopoulos). Supposedly, all political parties accepted the summary, except Evroko. If we do not introduce other elements, then we could be on the right truck and Turkey cannot go back on what it has accepted already.
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:45 pm

Bananiot wrote:No Nikitas, I am talking about the voices against BBF within the Greek Cypriot community. We should be clear in our targets (the one man one vote business and mutual ballot papers are just gimmics that will not be considered) as defined by the so called summary of the National Council (under Papadopoulos). Supposedly, all political parties accepted the summary, except Evroko. If we do not introduce other elements, then we could be on the right truck and Turkey cannot go back on what it has accepted already.


You have not answered the questions that Nikitas posed.

He asked if you consider it "feasible" to accept separate sovereignty, separate FIRs and the for each state to make their own bilateral arrangements?
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Postby Nikitas » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:11 pm

I am still confused. In a Federal context the one man one vote issue is not vital. Presumably the voting within each federal region will be carried out according to acceptable democratic standards. The central government machinery works according to what has been agreed.

The point is the pursuit of entrenched division along state lines which Talat is pursuing, and seems to add new things every day. In effect we entered discussions on a Federal solution and we are being presented with an ultimatum to accept concealed partition or else.

Considering we are planning the future here, and not atoning for past offences (by either side) things are not looking good. It seems like we are being railroaded into a situation where we will say, "ok have it your way, let us have agreed partition". How is my take on the situation wrong?
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Postby Nikitas » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:15 pm

Now on the one man one vote principle. Is there any other EU state that uses any system of weighted voting in the election of its parliaments and presidents? I cannot think of one, but do not exclude the possibility of it existing.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:38 pm

Lyssarides was on tv the other day. He said many things, among which, the following:

"We need to go the EU and ask for a European solution. Will they say no to us?"

Do you also think it is as simple as that? I think we need the EU and the UN because they will come to our aid, but only if they consider our demands reasonable. We need them to be on our side but even they require concessions from us. BBF is a huge concession, considering what we had. Political equality is also a concession but it is one we made in 1959, despite the fact that some do not recognise this and want the TC's to enjoy a minority status.

If we satisfy our stakeholders within the EU and the UN that our demands are resonable, I think Talat will back down from his unreasonable demands.

What if he falls back to the Annan plan which the Turkish side accepted and which was brokered by the international community? Where will this leave us? I have no doubt Talat will do exactly this eventually and in so doing he will stay one step ahead of us, again.

Had we charted a clear path from the beginning, we could be debating now an improved version of the Annan Plan and no one would blame us if the talks failed.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:16 pm

Nikitas, do you remember the infamous "sinopsis" (which I translated as "summary" earlier) that was sent to the Secretary General of the UN by Papadopoulos? I have just remembered what Dimitris Sillouris, President of Evroko, was saying about this time last year. Here is a breif summary:

"Euroko, does not accept the summary that was submitted to the UN by President Papadopoulos. In fact, Papadopoulos himself does not accept it".

This is a strange country Nikitas whichever way you look at it.
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