Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

As I always say, the final solution should create an independent, federal, democratic united Cyprus.

Independent:
Cypriots should be the only ones that can take decisions for Cyprus. Everything of course should be within the rules and spirit of EU. The UN and EU can guarantee our new state, but not Greece, Turkey, UK or other separate countries. Ideally, no foreign country should maintain troops in Cyprus, but an agreement can be reached for small armies to continue to be based here, but without the right to intervene.

Federal:
We will have a federal system. Each community will have its own state with its own police, educational system etc. Within this state the majority of residents should always come from the equivalent community, and special restrictions should be in place to maintain this. Each state will have its own parliament and laws as long as they do not contradict with the central government laws and the laws of EU.

The central state will be above the federal states and will take care of things that involve the island as a whole (economy, federal police, tourism etc). Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio. Critical matters will require not only a simple majority, but also separate majorities from each state.

Democratic:
The governments of each state will be elected by its own residents. The majority of residents will come from the equivalent community.
The central government will come from all Cypriots. If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote. We can adopt a system like in the US where president and vice president are elected at the same time and require that they are from different communities.

United:
One and only citizenship, a united economy, freedom of movement, goods and services. We are all Cypriots first and above all.

----------------------------------

Some of the above can come gradually during a specified time frame. During this time we will build trust and friendship, we will restructure our educational system to reflect this, and we will build the infrastructure in the north.


This is just some main principles. If you agree we can discuss it in more detail.

[insan]

Basically seems fair and acceptable...Is that your opinion? Or copied it from somewhere... Is there more details about it?

[FinalFantasy]

piratis well done...its a good idea...and very nice presentation..

[Piratis]

This is my opinion, taking into consideration what I've heard in here the last few weeks. If more people agree with it, we can build up the details point by point.

I believe this is a better way that to just continue to accuse each other for what happened in the past. If we can agree in here, I am sure the majorities of GC and TC will agree also.

The people here are sincere in their desire to find a solution, and we are free from any pressures to accommodate any foreign interests. Even if we have to accommodate some of those interests in the end, I think we will be much stronger when we, all Cypriots, come to the UN or EU and say "this is the solution we want".

[insan]

piratis,

I apreciate your efforts to find out a better solution for Cypriots... but I believe that we must put that better building on a clean and strong base...

We haven't got that clean and strong base yet cause all of the past facts haven't been interrogated, prosecuted yet... The past facts must be clarified and a joint declaration must be made officially by parties(Leadership of 2 communities, Turkey, Greece, UK)

Cypriots should know all of the truths regarding past facts otherwise they will always have suspicions to each other... Suspicions will cause the fears to get bigger and isolation of the Cypriots...


Under these circumstances every move and the action of the suspecteds or suposedly suspecteds will be annoyance and provacative for those who have suspicions, enigmas, stereotypes and fears inside their heads...


Is it possible to be able to improve the relations of two communities, under these circumstances?

Just a small bomb blast or a small gang fight will be enough for them to think such things "GCs will kill us all ", "Turkey will conquer Cyprus..", "Brits are trying to divide us..", "This is the foreign powers game...", "Barbarian Turks..", "Barbarian Greeks...", "Best Turk is the death Turk..", "TCs and GCs can't live together...", etc, etc...


Be sure of that they will blame each other just like we have been blaming each other since 1963...


So... I say lets finalize these blames in independent courts... Everyone who accused, suspected, have documents and are witnesses of those past events must be called for interrogation...


In the end you'll see that all fears, suspicions, stereotypes and hateful thought will be erased in our brains and then we feel more comfortable ourselves to participate in joint projects, actions, relations...

[Piratis]

I agree that trust building should start some time before total integration of the two communities, but I disagree with the method you propose. Even simple matters can take years in courts. Imagine 100s of people, some of them with supporters, going to courts for things that happened several decades ago. Another problem is who are we going to send to court? Maybe we can't agree exactly on this either.

I believe what we should have is strict laws. Leave the past behind, but if anybody tries to do anything now they should be punished.

[insan]

Another problem is who are we going to send to court? Maybe we can't agree exactly on this either.

I believe what we should have is strict laws. Leave the past behind, but if anybody tries to do anything now they should be punished.

Don't worry about how long the lawsuits will take time to come to a conclusion... no excuses are acceptable to prevent Cypriots justice and truth uncover demands... Prevention of these demands is violation of international human rights...

And don't worry about whom to send to the courts... It's not up to someones agreement...

All responisble parties inspectors and European International Human Rights commisions will execute the inerrogations and prosecutions... They can easily find "the ones" to send to the courts...

And yes... we will have strict laws....

[insan]

Independent:
Cypriots should be the only ones that can take decisions for Cyprus.

I agree.

Everything of course should be within the rules and spirit of EU.

Of coarse.

The UN and EU can guarantee our new state, but not Greece, Turkey, UK or other separate countries.

The UN and EU have never undertaken such responsibility so far. Do you really believe that they would...?

Ideally, no foreign country should maintain troops in Cyprus

I agree.

but an agreement can be reached for small armies to continue to be based here, but without the right to intervene.

950 Greek - 650 Turkish - 1000 EU under command of an EU commandment. Is it reasonable?

Federal:
We will have a federal system. Each community will have its own state with its own police, educational system etc.

The TC administered constituent state land should be %29 of the total land of Cyprus.(%12.3 TCs private land + %9 40.000 GCs private land + %3 Evkaf properties + %6 TC constituent state land[roads, mountains, forests etc.])

All internal affairs of TC constituent state must be shared proportionally with the GC residents of TC constituent state. i.e; %20 of all governmental jobs(administrative, excecutive etc) must be granted to GC residents of TC constituent state.(Full political rights)

%20 restriction concerning the allowed number of GC residents in TC constituent must be preserved in a mutually agreed time period.. e.g 20 years.

Within this state the majority of residents should always come from the equivalent community, and special restrictions should be in place to maintain this.

I couldn't understand this...

Each state will have its own parliament and laws as long as they do not contradict with the central government laws and the laws of EU.

I agree. The power sharing in these parliaments should be based on proportion of each community.


35-37 GCs + 1-2 TCs(Depends on the number of TCs who would live in GC constituent state) should be in GC state parliament...

9 TCs + 2 GCs should be in TC state parliament.

The central state will be above the federal states and will take care of things that involve the island as a whole (economy, federal police, tourism etc).

A senate must be established for this purposes and based on equal power sharing.


It must be comprised by 16 GC senaters from GC state and 20 TC senaters + 4 GC senators from TC state.

Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio.

The number of ministers and government employees should be shared proportionally. Ministries should be changed amongst the states on a rotation basis.

Critical matters will require not only a simple majority, but also separate majorities from each state.

I agree.

Democratic:
The governments of each state will be elected by its own residents.

I agree.

The majority of residents will come from the equivalent community.

I couldn't understand this...



(quote]The central government will come from all Cypriots. If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote. We can adopt a system like in the US where president and vice president are elected at the same time and require that they are from different communities.[/quote]

The president and vice president should be changed on a rotative basis.

United:
One and only citizenship, a united economy, freedom of movement, goods and services. We are all Cypriots first and above all.

I agree.

[Piratis]

950 Greek - 650 Turkish - 1000 EU under command of an EU commandment. Is it reasonable?

Yes, as long as they will be in specific camps and they will not be allowed to intervene. And this for specific time frame, not forever except if Cyprus decides otherwise.

The TC administered constituent state land should be %29 of the total land of Cyprus.(%12.3 TCs private land + %9 40.000 GCs private land + %3 Evkaf properties + %6 TC constituent state land[roads, mountains, forests etc.])

All internal affairs of TC constituent state must be shared proportionally with the GC residents of TC constituent state. i.e; %20 of all governmental jobs(administrative, executive etc) must be granted to GC residents of TC constituent state.(Full political rights)

As I told you in another thread your calculations are wrong. Both private + state + Evkaf = 17%.
24%-25% is more appropriate for TC state for 2 reasons:

1)It is very unfair for the TCs of 18% to hold a territory of 29%. I believe 24% is a reasonable compromise.

2)With 29% it will be impossible for all of our refugees to return and at the same time TC state to maintain a clear majority of TCs.
What I am bothered mostly is not the 29% but the fact that in the way you propose several refugees will not have the right to return, which is something against basic human rights.

%20 restriction concerning the allowed number of GC residents in TC constituent must be preserved in a mutually agreed time period.. e.g 20 years.

Obviously populations can not be moved from one day to the next. This should happen gradually, is 20 or 15 years are needed for this transitional period is something we can discuss. This is not something major.

I couldn't understand this...

The two points that you can not understand say the same thing:
Than in the TC state the majority will always be TCs and in the GC state the majority will always be GCs. This Limit can be 40% of GCs in TC state and vice versa. 20% that you propose is too little and unnecessary since it does not promote mixing of population, but separation, something we want to avoid.

A senate must be established for this purposes and based on equal power sharing.

Here is the point I disagree 100%. This totally eliminates the democratic principle.
We can have a senate, with equal number of senators from each community, but this senate will be only needed to take decisions on matters of great importance such as the change of the constitution. I can not accept that 18% should agree on everything because this gives this minority an effective veto on everything which is not something democratic.

The number of ministers and government employees should be shared proportionally. Ministries should be changed amongst the states on a rotation basis.

OK.

The president and vice president should be changed on a rotative basis.

This is again something that doesn't follow the democratic principle. What I propose does, and it should be satisfactory for you.
The president and vice president will be elected together and they should belong to different community. So either GC president TC vice president, or TC president GC vice president. The winning combination will be elected from all Cypriots. 1 Cypriot 1 vote.
When the President is abroad, is sick, or dies, then the vice president will take charge of the country.


So my conclusion, is that with insan we agree on the all principles except the "democratic" one.
TCs should understand that they can have a veto power on important matters like the change on constitution, but an 18% minority to have an effective veto on everything is simply something undemocratic that can not be accepted.

[insan]

Yes, as long as they will be in specific camps and they will not be allowed to intervene. And this for specific time frame, not forever except if Cyprus decides otherwise.

I agree.

As I told you in another thread your calculations are wrong. Both private + state + Evkaf = 17%.
24%-25% is more appropriate for TC state for 2 reasons:

1)It is very unfair for the TCs of 18% to hold a territory of 29%. I believe 24% is a reasonable compromise.

2)With 29% it will be impossible for all of our refugees to return and at the same time TC state to maintain a clear majority of TCs.
What I am bothered mostly is not the 29% but the fact that in the way you propose several refugees will not have the right to return, which is something against basic human rights.

THE TERRITORIAL ISSUE


After long discussions between the two sides in 1992, the S.G. prepared a compromise map showing the proposed area of the two Federated Zones. This map reduces the area of the T/C Federated Zone from 3,355 sq.km which is the area of the Turkish-occupied territory at present, to 2,613 sq.km. Calculated on the basis of the total area of Cyprus, including the British Bases, which is 9,251 sq.km., the area of the T/C zone according to the MAP amounts to 28.2% but calculated on the basis of the area of the Republic of Cyprus (8,995sq.km.), it amounts to 29.05%. Thus the latter percentage is in-between what the two sides had agreed in 1985 and 1986: The 1985 Consolidated Draft Agreement, which was accepted by the G/C side stipulated that the area of the T/C Federated Zone would be "in the order of 29% of the territory of the Federal Republic" and the 1986 Draft Framework Agreement, accepted by the T/C side, stipulated that the area of the T/C Federated zone would be "in the order of 29+%". (Note: The aforesaid figures have been obtained from the Deputy Special Representative of the S.G. in Cyprus, Mr. Feissel.)

http://www.cytanet.com.cy/cyprus-problem/body.htm


According to 1946 census muslim population was 80.000 and non-muslim population was 370.000 in Cyprus. This makes the TCs %20.1 of the total population. According to the statistics of various reliable sources the yearly population growth rate of both communities is same...

So how did the %20 of TC population percentage decrease to %18.4 in 1960 while GC population of the Island was increasing normally? Simple... Because of the EOKAs oppression and intercommunal violance...


Thus, the TCs population percentage must be accepted as %20 to total population nevertheless their private+state land must be accepted as %20 to total land(Though productivity of the land must be taken into consideration as well)

The British sovereign bases are only the 2.7 of the total Cyprus land. 258 sq km.

Take half of it from TCs land... Ok. Now it is % 18.7 .

If 40.000 refugees would return to their properties in TC constituent state; percentagely, the amount of their private properties and state land share should be appended to TCs %18.7. Then most probably it would be equal to %28-29.

Obviously populations can not be moved from one day to the next. This should happen gradually, is 20 or 15 years are needed for this transitional period is something we can discuss. This is not something major.

It's very important because of the balance of the powers of each constituent state and stability...

The two points that you can not understand say the same thing:
Than in the TC state the majority will always be TCs and in the GC state the majority will always be GCs. This Limit can be 40% of GCs in TC state and vice versa. 20% that you propose is too little and unnecessary since it does not promote mixing of population, but separation, something we want to avoid.

%20 is a good amount for the beginning... %40 demolishes the balance of the powers in TC constituent state. Max. %25 should be preserved unless they decide to make the federation a mixed unitary state...

Here is the point I disagree 100%. This totally eliminates the democratic principle.
We can have a senate, with equal number of senators from each community, but this senate will be only needed to take decisions on matters of great importance such as the change of the constitution. I can not accept that 18% should agree on everything because this gives this minority an effective veto on everything which is not something democratic.

The opposite of this gives the majority an effective sanction power on minority and nullify all of their rights. So don't worry about the "veto" of the TC senators. If the majority of GC senators really attempt anything good for the benefit of TCs as well; be sure of that, majority of TC senators give support to them and vice versa...

This is again something that doesn't follow the democratic principle.

Why?

What I propose does, and it should be satisfactory for you.
The president and vice president will be elected together and they should belong to different community.

Ok.

So either GC president TC vice president, or TC president GC vice president. The winning combination will be elected from all Cypriots. 1 Cypriot 1 vote.

What's the chance of a TC being elected as a president?

When the President is abroad, is sick, or dies, then the vice president will take charge of the country

Ok.