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ECHR - DEMADES - TURKEY

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:33 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
If Turkey was to pull out it's troops from the "trnc", the "trnc" won't last more than 5 minutes, VP. The whole existence of the "trnc" is the 40,000 Turkish Troops, because it does not have any foundations to support any part of it's existence. You tell us how the "trnc" will survive more than 5 minutes without the Turkish Troops in the north, then I will believe in what you say, that the TC's will not give up the "trnc".


You are right thank god for Turkey and her troops. Allowed the opportunity by removing isolation the TRNC will become stronger and stronger thats what you are afraid of, but dont worry looks like Turkey is not going away anytime soon as the talks head for another deadlock. The only opportunity the GCs has to get rid of the Turkish army they voted no Denktaş senior thanks them for that all the time.



Then we agree VP, that the "trnc" does not have what it takes to be a state like all other independent states around the world who are self sufficient entities built by their own people over time who has earned recognition and respect of the world body, the UN, and not because a foreign army which is the sole foundation of it's existence, as the "trnc" is. One day Turkey's priorities will change once again, and at that time, you will have learned not to have relied on sitting on a "one legged stool" for the survival of the "trnc".

If Turkey wanted for the Annan Plan 2004 to fail, they would not have removed Denktash from power, so what Denktash says or does not say after the fact, is totally meaningless, because he is even more far right than all you NeoPartitionist. Denktash only cares after No 1, himself. He had no interest for any kind of a settlement, and his 30+ years of playing the role of a dictatorial President is the proof, while the good TC's were forced to accept living under a "corrupted society" that he created.


Then we have to fight for the right to survive just like any other country, we must remove those elements which stop us from growing and standing on our own 2 feet namely the inhumane isolation imposed and maintained by the despot GC stance, with no solution this is all we can work for and show the world that this is not what we deserve, we to have the right to live and develop just like any other people.


No one can disagree with you as to what each nation must do to survive VP, but you also have to understand, that we also have to live by International laws to protect nations and it's people from others when ever possible, which the UN plays a leading role in overseeing that the International laws are respected, and when they are not respected, then actions are taken towards those that break those laws by imposing isolation, embargoes and non recognition of self declared states created by force on others land after first ethnically cleansing the indigenous inhabitants of those lands. The "trnc" seems to fall into all of those categories and unless the RoC agrees to have them lifted, you are stuck with them. The RoC is not going to remove them unless there are incentives for them. The question for you is, what are you offering the RoC to ask the UN to have all these restrictions put on the "trnc" to be removed.?


An obvious and clear understanding that it is the GCs who do not want a solution and will not compromise (eg rejection of the AP) to accomadate the TCs, coupled with a return of land and a right to return and compensation as incentives for GCs.

We can no longer be shut out and the last 4 years have for us shown a lot of progress with regards to an easing of isolation, this with the help of the intrangient GC stance and no future solution will fuel the every increasing ideology that TCs have done nothing wrong why are they being punished in 2008 2009 2010 etc....we are in for the long haul what ever it takes.


Bravo VP.....Kikapus post is like a vampire sucking out the goodness in TCs and feeding it to the GCs......The GCs are not responsible for any of the damage done to the island.....We should just leave it up to them to talk to the world because we are not worthy. :roll:

These are talks Mr. Kikapu..Between two equals....Not a little kid asking for candy...If you are suffering from an inferiority complex, please keep it to yourself. The rest of us are proud TCs who know our rights.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:35 pm

Kifeas wrote:Well, VP, wait until you see the new UN resolution on Cyprus that is just about going to be passed on, and you will see what it says about isolation and the rest of your babblers!


We have seen many of those, nothing new their so dont get to excited, the bottom line is the UN have nothing to help you, come to think of it nor has anyone else even the EU, must tell you that they do not think you are 100% in the right.
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Postby Byron » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:37 pm

Byron wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
Byron wrote:

VP, we are not asking you to "give up" the "TRNC," because we want you to live as just another minority in a "GC state run by GCs!" We are asking you to give up the "TRNC," because it is an illegal and illegitimate entity, created in violation of international law and in violation of the area's majority of indigenous people's human rights! We are only asking you to live under a RoC, run by and for its own people -including yourselves, in full protection of each and every citizen's human and civil rights, and each community's cultural and social rights!

PS: And if you are going to come up with just another one of your empty slogans, you better not answer at all!


Kifeas you are advocating for a solution within the ROC however according to Viewpoint the vast majority of Turks do not wish to adopt this type of solution but in turn prefer union with Turkey. Now, if that is the wish of the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots then we Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots living in the legal part of the ROC have a problem. What do we do ? Continue to negotiate on the same existing terms i.e. -the re-instatement of the ROC? Should we abandon the talks? or maybe sit back and do nothing ? What is our second proposition or don't we have one? Instead of playing charades on this forum please explain what the alternatives are for the Greek Cypriots. I am interested to know as otherwise in 50 years time we shall all be here discussing the same silly things. I wish for the discussions to go forward and I would like to hear your views and others as to what is our fall back position.


Byron, I already answered the above question, not too long ago, in another thread! If you are a Cypriot, you shouldn't have made these questions, for you should have known the answerers yourself and beforehand!


Please kindly refer me to your post ( or thread ) so that I can read it, thank you. Only joined last month so it is not possible to read all the posts.


Kifeas - Second Reminder - where can I find your post please ?
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:01 pm

Byron wrote:
Byron wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
Byron wrote:

VP, we are not asking you to "give up" the "TRNC," because we want you to live as just another minority in a "GC state run by GCs!" We are asking you to give up the "TRNC," because it is an illegal and illegitimate entity, created in violation of international law and in violation of the area's majority of indigenous people's human rights! We are only asking you to live under a RoC, run by and for its own people -including yourselves, in full protection of each and every citizen's human and civil rights, and each community's cultural and social rights!

PS: And if you are going to come up with just another one of your empty slogans, you better not answer at all!


Kifeas you are advocating for a solution within the ROC however according to Viewpoint the vast majority of Turks do not wish to adopt this type of solution but in turn prefer union with Turkey. Now, if that is the wish of the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots then we Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots living in the legal part of the ROC have a problem. What do we do ? Continue to negotiate on the same existing terms i.e. -the re-instatement of the ROC? Should we abandon the talks? or maybe sit back and do nothing ? What is our second proposition or don't we have one? Instead of playing charades on this forum please explain what the alternatives are for the Greek Cypriots. I am interested to know as otherwise in 50 years time we shall all be here discussing the same silly things. I wish for the discussions to go forward and I would like to hear your views and others as to what is our fall back position.


Byron, I already answered the above question, not too long ago, in another thread! If you are a Cypriot, you shouldn't have made these questions, for you should have known the answerers yourself and beforehand!


Please kindly refer me to your post ( or thread ) so that I can read it, thank you. Only joined last month so it is not possible to read all the posts.


Kifeas - Second Reminder - where can I find your post please ?


The answer is here Byron.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 133#382133
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Postby Byron » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:02 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Byron wrote:
Byron wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
Byron wrote:

VP, we are not asking you to "give up" the "TRNC," because we want you to live as just another minority in a "GC state run by GCs!" We are asking you to give up the "TRNC," because it is an illegal and illegitimate entity, created in violation of international law and in violation of the area's majority of indigenous people's human rights! We are only asking you to live under a RoC, run by and for its own people -including yourselves, in full protection of each and every citizen's human and civil rights, and each community's cultural and social rights!

PS: And if you are going to come up with just another one of your empty slogans, you better not answer at all!


Kifeas you are advocating for a solution within the ROC however according to Viewpoint the vast majority of Turks do not wish to adopt this type of solution but in turn prefer union with Turkey. Now, if that is the wish of the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots then we Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots living in the legal part of the ROC have a problem. What do we do ? Continue to negotiate on the same existing terms i.e. -the re-instatement of the ROC? Should we abandon the talks? or maybe sit back and do nothing ? What is our second proposition or don't we have one? Instead of playing charades on this forum please explain what the alternatives are for the Greek Cypriots. I am interested to know as otherwise in 50 years time we shall all be here discussing the same silly things. I wish for the discussions to go forward and I would like to hear your views and others as to what is our fall back position.


Byron, I already answered the above question, not too long ago, in another thread! If you are a Cypriot, you shouldn't have made these questions, for you should have known the answerers yourself and beforehand!


Please kindly refer me to your post ( or thread ) so that I can read it, thank you. Only joined last month so it is not possible to read all the posts.


Kifeas - Second Reminder - where can I find your post please ?


The answer is here Byron.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 133#382133


Thanks Kifeas, I will read it .
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:58 pm

Viewpoint wrote:An obvious and clear understanding that it is the GCs who do not want a solution and will not compromise (eg rejection of the AP) to accomadate the TCs, coupled with a return of land and a right to return and compensation as incentives for GCs.


The only thing you are proposing as an incentive for the GC's, is to give then a little bit of their land back, allow some GC's to return to some of their properties, which in time, we can also get rid of them one way or another and force buy the properties from the remaining GC's who will be denied returning back to the north and in return for sake of "peace", you want the GC's to walk away from the land they have been living long before we came so that we can established another country in the north, become a EU member, allow all Turks from Turkey to receive duel citizenship with the "trnc" since Turkey will be vetoed by the RoC on her EU dreams, and all the while allowing Turkey to manipulate the EU through the "trnc" all the while, all Turks with dual citizenship with the EU member "trnc" will then be able to flood the South in time.

Now VP, if this is your understanding on what compromise means, then you will always see the GC's as not wanting to compromise for the sake of "peace". The fact that Annan Plan 2004 would have brought about all the things I have described above, is the reason you keep bringing it up, not as a chance lost for "peace", but rather, a chance lost for legal Partition. No wonder Talat would have liked to see the AP 2004 back as the basis for today's negotiations, and since it is not back, we can now see Talat making bold demands in the negotiations for a Partition, just like what was described in the AP 2004, but in a more subtle and disguised manner.

We can no longer be shut out and the last 4 years have for us shown a lot of progress with regards to an easing of isolation, this with the help of the intrangient GC stance and no future solution will fuel the every increasing ideology that TCs have done nothing wrong why are they being punished in 2008 2009 2010 etc....we are in for the long haul what ever it takes.


You want to concentrate on tidbits of "hand-outs" from the EU or others as a means to interpret of the isolation's coming down, then I'm afraid you are missing the BIG picture on what makes a country a COUNTRY. Yes I know that Rome was not built in a day, but lets face the truth shall we. First it was all the UN resolutions against Turkey and the establishment of the "trnc" which gave it's full backing to the RoC, and if that wasn't bad enough, since 2004, we have all the EU demands to meet if the "trnc" or Turkey are ever to become an EU members. In my view, the offers you have suggested to give the GC's is something that does not belong to you in the first place, stands the reason why the GC's are not accepting it. Rather obvious, wouldn't you say VP.? BBF as a True Federation is on the table and if we are talking about reunification, then we should accept it, but if it's a Partition that we are after, then we are wasting every one's time by going through the motion of the so called "peace talks". Talat all but stated that he wants a Partition with the demands that he is making. My guess is, those demands will remain as such and will not be granted.

Oh well, there is always the next round of so called "peace talks" in the future to look forward to since this one will just die on the vine, just like the Annan Plan 2004. Only this time, the TC's will be seen the intransigents and not the GC's, since the talks are based on UN agreements on BBF as in Federation and not as in Confederation, which is what Talat and Turkey wants. Then again, Christmas is fast approaching and that Santa may bring the TC's what they want. Be sure to keep your chimney clean so that Santa will be able to slide down to deliver your "BBC" Confederation present.!
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Postby MrH » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:22 pm

In essence, the ECHR can not demand any compensation from Turkey regarding Cyprus as the island of Cyprus is locked under a United Nations Peace Process in view of reaching a "Comprehensive" settlement and not one that is in part with Court decisions made settled by the ECHR and the other half within a Cyprus Blue print plan, and also that Turkey is not a EU member state! In the Galis Set of Ideas for instance as well as the former Annan Plan, the state borders were clearly defined, the land handed back and any (if any) compensation issue were also clearly defined (obviously, NOT!). If your answer is "No", then obviously a UN Blue Print can NEVER (in a million years) resolve this Compensation issue, leaving only a clear and decisive partition! A 30/70 split, straight down the middle!

All issues of compensation or return are all PART of "The" Comprehensive Settlement of the Cyprus problem, thus it should only be accounted for as part of the overall UN Blue Print agreement - Unless Partition is agreed of course!

This is why an agreement to the Cyprus problem based on a Federal structure will never materialise - it's too complex, involves too much transfer of monies and cases of compensation for both communities/peoples, and above all, is a very highly disputed matter.
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Postby Get Real! » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:40 pm

MrH wrote:A 30/70 split, straight down the middle!

Even die-hard partitionists can laugh at his maths gem… :lol:
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Postby zan » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:48 pm

Get Real! wrote:
MrH wrote:A 30/70 split, straight down the middle!

Even die-hard partitionists can laugh at his maths gem… :lol:


Do you have trouble getting past points, when reading, that bring out the child in you...You do.....Then take two of these three times a dayImageUnless you are GR where a bigger dose is requiredImage
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Postby Get Real! » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:52 pm

zan wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
MrH wrote:A 30/70 split, straight down the middle!

Even die-hard partitionists can laugh at his maths gem… :lol:


Do you have trouble getting past points, when reading, that bring out the child in you...You do.....Then take two of these three times a dayImageUnless you are GR where a bigger dose is requiredImage

That's more like it Zanny, stick to what you do best and forget the CyProb... :lol:
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