Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

utu why dont you direct your questions to the GCsand EU as why they will not allow us to become economically independent of Turkey?

I see your logic: "the isolations imposed from outside have forced us to be dependent upon Turkey", is what you are saying. If your entity was recognized, do you think that it would be all that different? Given Turkey's position in relation to the north of Cyprus (plus the use of the New Turkish Lira as your currency), there would still be a disproportionately large chunk of economic influence from Ankara. Also, I had mentioned Somaliland. They are not recognized by ANY country, yet their economy is actually very stable.

A financially indepedent unrecognized TRNC would mean we could stand on our own 2 feet and show more flexibilty towards GC demands, plus it would be less of a financial burden if we should decide to unite. The GCs are cutting their noses off despite their faces.

[BirKibrisli]

My question to all of you is ......... who will pick up the mess once Turkey has turned the tap off? hmmmmmmmm .... the RoC perhaps? As you would have read the article I posted earlier this week Turkey has turned the tap off cause the holding tank is running dry for the 70 od million ppl in Turkey itself.

This is purely a wishful thinking on behalf of the GCs, they love to churn out doom and gloom..Turkey will never turn off the tap...in 10 years time you will still be saying the same things.

VP is right,Turkey would never turn off the tap completely or permanently...The reason for the present funding disagreement is simple...People who live in the trnc,especially the real TCs who hold most of the government jobs,have a much higher standard of living than the average person in Turkey...This is causing resentment amongst some of the AKP apparatchikis who want to bring the TCs into line...Plus put pressure on them to be more appreciative of what their "motherland" is doing for them... In other words the TCs are not considered good arse lickers by certain Turkish politicians and their supporters...They like to make them beg for their supper,which might have a silver lineing to it after all...Some more TCs might decide enough is enough,they have been saved for long enough by their 'saviours'....But the tap will never be turned off...It's consequences would be too humiliating for Turkey internationally...Not because they have much regard for the "British" and "Gavur" bastards they really think we are...

[BirKibrisli]

No TC out there want to live with GCs in a GC state run by GCs? anyone?

But do TC's want to live in a state run from Ankara? The current situation has made the north of Cyprus into a Turkish colony. Not exactly independent, is it?

Why does it bother you so much?

My thesis talked about Taksim and what it meant: split Cyprus between Greece and Turkey, OR split off a seperate state for Turkish Cypriots. The 1983 UDI would have meant the latter meaning, but the actions of Turkey more clearly indicate the former. A facade of "independence" whilst controlling the economy, the military, and the north's "government" is what is happening. For those TC's who believe in independence, it rather makes their views irrelevent, doesn't it? So when Ankara claims to be fighting for 'TRNC independence', they're actually llying to both the TC's and the outside world. That's what bothers me.

Utu...Is there any way one can access your Thesis????
I for one would love to read it...Feel free to PM me if need be...Thanks,mate...

[utu]

I'm still writing it, and I'm not supposed to show any of it to anyone until it is completed, presented, and graded. It is a year-long acodemic project. Gotta play by the rules.

[Tim Drayton]

...I think that Limassol today is a wonderful place to live and find it hard to believe that anybody would not wish to return here.

You are one of the foreigners he wants to avoid Timbo...

If you read my post a little more carefully, GRbo, you would see that I made that joke.

[Tim Drayton]

Iceman,
A couple of genuine questions:

Do you dream one day of returning to Limassol?
Do you have no wish to return to Limassol now because you will be a member of a minority?
If, following a solution you could do so as a member of a community with equal political rights, would you then return to Limassol?

Tim
I am way past the age to do a fresh start anywhere,so although own property there i have no desire to return to Limassol.

Even if i was younger the reason for not returning would not be security or political but purely social.
Even tho we shared a lot of things with fellow GC's we did live in our own community before 1974..

Limassol is not the same place i left 34 years ago..Its full of non Cypriots i have no desire in being neighbours with.
(having said that Kyrenia is also full of non Cypriots i don't like as neighbours either but i am stuck with it)

Being old enough to remember Cyprus as a whole,it breaks my heart to see it divided.
Not one day passes where i don't curse the people responsible for this separation.

Cyprus is my home and i will never support the mentality which treats any part of my home as foreign land..
Being realistic i also accept the fact that a pre74 Cyprus will only be a dream,but what ever the solution,i want all the Cypriots to be free to choose where they want to live.

Thanks for your genuine and considered response. Obviously I do not know the Limassol that you left 34 years ago, but I think that Limassol today is a wonderful place to live and find it hard to believe that anybody would not wish to return here. This is a superficial view, of course, and maybe I am one of the non-Cypriots that you do not wish to live next to! Halil told me that a survey of Turkish Cypriot refugees showed that very few people wished to return to their old homes. As I see from your reply above, the reasons for this are quite complex, but I can't help feeling that at the same time this situation "spreads butter on the partitionists' bread" (to use the Turkish idiom) i.e. helps their cause without meaning to.

Tim, I am afraid you missed what Iceman was trying to say, which sums up what and how I would describe the prospects of me living in Kyrenia. What he says is that the only meaning Limassol has, for him, is the life experience he had being with his fellow TC neighbours and childhood friends, and if those are not returning back to it in order to recreate the old times, in a way, then there is not point in him coming alone to live in Limassol nowadays. Limassol is indeed a cosmopolitan city in its broader sense -probably the only one in Cyprus to such an extent, however it is also a city that does or should also belong to its indigenous inhabitants, part of which is also the TC limassonians. If this feeling -which the GC Limassonians do enjoy, cannot be established in iceman and the rest of the TCs, and instead they will feel just like all the rest of new-comers in Limassol, then what is the point of ever relocating into an estranged city? These are the very sad and traumatic circumstances the division of Cyprus created. I only wished that more TCs would share Iceman’s way of feeling and /or thinking, but unfortunately a lot of brainwashing had run through their minds all these years, to the extent that more and more GCs find it hard to identify with them and see them as fellow Cypriots.

Kifeas, I think you are misrepresenting me. After making the flippant point that I love Limassol as it is now and cannot understand why anybody would not wish to return here, I added the comment "This is a superficial view, of course ...". I have spoken to quite a few Turkish Cypriot refugees from Limassol and have heard of the heartbreak they feel when they return for a visit and find a city that has changed beyond all recognition. I understand the points you are making much better than you imagine, including your own feelings about returning to Kyrenia after so many years. The serious point I am trying to make is that there are very subtle and complex reasons why the vast majority of Turkish Cypriot refugees no longer dream of return, but at the same time, unfortunately, this provides the partitionists with cheap ammunition for propaganda.

[Piratis]

Which came first? Enosis or Taksim?

Enosis = The struggle for freedom of all the Greek territories from foreign rule and the creation of one united free Greek state, come in 1821.

What came first was the invasion and oppression of the Turks against us.

Enosis was the right of the Cypriot people. How was it fine for Cyprus to be part of the British or Ottoman empires against the will of the Cypriot people, but not fine for Cyprus to be part of a free Greek state as the vast majority of Cypriots wanted?

So what came first was your first invasion and occupation from 1571-1878. What came second was your attacks, 80 years later, in 1958, and what came 3rd your invasion in 1974.

In all cases you started the wars and conflicts with the aim to stop Cyprus from being free and Cypriots deciding their own destiny in a democratic way.

The only thing we asked and fought for was for our freedom and self-determination from foreign rulers, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We never asked from you to be our slaves, in the way you treated us like slaves for most of your history on this island, neither we asked from you to give up your human rights or land, the way you have done against us in 1974. If you had not choose to fight against us in order to keep us enslaved, then there would be no conflicts and no suffering for either side. But of course you could never allow Cypriots to decide anything in a democratic way. You always had to attack and try to impose your will by force. (and then come here and cry because in the conflicts which you started you also suffered and also had some casualties!!)

[Piratis]

utu, why you have an obsession with ExpatWiki and you are so sensitive about how he is treated? This is not the first time you do this. Are you the same person?

I see that what bothers you is that the pseudo state is not independent from Turkey, and not the fact that the pseudo state is declared on land which belongs by 80% to Greek Cypriots, and which is the homeland of 5 times more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots, and where Greek Cypriots have a far far longer history on.

How can our own territory be independent from us? If we are not the ones ruling that territory, it exactly means that that territory is not free, it is not independent, but instead it is illegally occupied by some others and not its own people.

[MrH]

utu Wrote:

That's what I mean, Zan. Your loyalty to Turkey is because Turkey is the one thing keeping the north afloat. As you said earlier: if that is the situation you prefer - and that is the economic reality - then why have a facade of independence? Turkey might as well formally annex the north. It would be more honest.

Hi Utu,
Good point, and I also agree with Zan on this point (made above) that this is a situation that we were forced into.

However, we must not forget that April 2004 was a Huge Step for us Turkish Cypriots! Where in our eyes, saying yes to that (Annan Plan) was a large sacrifice for us - don't laugh just yet GR, here me out.

I would even go to say that it substantially "fell short" of our basic, minimum requirements as well: Such as being regarded as a "Constituent" State instead of a "Federated" state, ultimately living under an eventual Dominated GC Cypriot administration (after an number of years time), agreeing to a unification plan without Turkey being a part of the EU (leaving us vunerable if inter-communal fighting should breakout - this can not be dissmissed!), a drammatically reduced control of the entire island - were we not "Partners" of the original 1960 constitution? At no part of the Constitution does it mention that the GCs should occupy more land/terrtory as the Turkish Cypriots should there be a dispute!

Ultimately, and I strongly believe this, the GC "OXI" to the Annan Plan, and the factors that were unanimously based on their "No" campagin, to me, suggests that any unification deal that falls short on what Talat said in his Open statement is truly a waste of time. That's only one of the reasons why I believe in an Independent "Turkish Cypriot Republic" state, a "Peaceful" Divorce of the island as two - so-called "Cypriot" states! (If the GCs want to call it that!). At least then, we, our children and the European Union, Turkey and Greece for that matter, could truly start a new chapter of political affairs in Cyprus. Base future negotiations on "Peace", and not "Resolving a long-term Conflict" as is frequently mentioned when discussing the Cyprus issue, but basing future negotiations on "Partnership", "Agreements" and "Collaboration".

If the GCs can muster the strength to face certain "Realities" on the island and agree to such an amicable Split - I am certain that it would benefit all, AND, you never know, maybe, just maybe the two new "Republic Cypriot" states of Cyprus could build on their newly found state of affairs as Close EU member states, and work closely with Turkey and Greece as opposed to bickering and pointless "stand-offs". Just look at the agreement of Turkey's Finansbank that a 46 pecent stake to Greece's National Bank - Bravo! That's the type of relationship the Greeks and Turks should ultimately build on, making more and building on both of the people's wealth. I have no doubt that the Turkish and Greek businessman, and politicians of both countries, sat down and new that they were making history, breaking the ice of a major historical taboo. Perhaps it's about time our leaders did the same?

The power of such an agreement is obviously in Greek Cypriot hands - honestly speaking, if I were a Greek Cypriot Living in Cyprus, had children and was worried about the future of the island, worried about the amount of refugees from other countries pouring into the south illegally from Northern Cyprus (with no control), worried of a future conflict for my children, worried that the (Weak) EU task force (or whatever they've name it this time) will fail to assist Cyprus should a conflict with Turkey occur (God Forbid) as the EU clearly failed to respond in former Yugoslavia, I would push my political leaders into accepting the Czechoslovakian "Peace" model.

If you look at it logically, such a deal would ultimately promote unification, peace and a very prosperous island. Such a deal could prompt the two Cypriot Presidents to work closely with each other, command complete respect, and even form mergers in areas like the joint use of a central airport for the island, tourism, immigration, economics and even sports.

We all know that Talat and Christofias are good friends and could easily clinch such a deal, but not without the will of its people. I know the Turkish Cypriots and Turkey would accept such a deal - it's only up to the Greek Cypriots.

Let it go.....

[Kifeas]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!