Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Bir, first of all thank you for giving the chance to reply to those baseless arguments. It was extremely easy for me, and I didn't try to avoid any of them by saying "oh, but thats too old", or any other lame excuses.

Now instead of hiding behind an imaginary Dektash maybe you should tell us what your own position is on the true historical facts of the Cyprus problem and its roots.

I do not hold extreme positions, I don't go around saying "TCs are evil and should be punished", "TCs never had any losses in the conflicts, they only killed our own", or anything of that sort. I am just stating the historical facts, many of which I have learned from TCs on this site.

So if there is something you think I got wrong, then I ask you again to provide the historical facts and show to me that I am wrong. If I am wrong about a point and you show this to me by providing facts, then I would be glad to modify that point accordingly. Deal?

But don't ask from me to accept things which are untrue just so I will make TCs feel better and make them like me more. I am not that type of person.

In school I was often alone in fighting against the crap of the religion teachers. I never accepted their illogical fairy tales just so they would like me and give me good grades.


_________________

Piratis,

My little exercise has proved its point...

Nothing that one side says would have any impact on the other...

Because both sides believe theirs is the ONLY true version...

AS long as you both believe you have all the facts and the monopoly on TRUTH Cyprus problem will not be solved...Simple as...

As for me,I believe that the truth lies somewhere in the middle...it will be a waste of my time to try to tell you anything...Your mind has been made up,and nothing will change it...Enjoy wallowing in your self-rightious indignation...My job in this thread is done...

Bir, if truth necessarily "lies somewhere in the middle" of two arguments, then the truth would be something variable which would change depending on what the arguments are.

Example:
Argument 1: There were 100 casualties
Argument 2: There were 200 casualties
"Truth": There were 150 casualties

As you understand this encourages extremism. Because one can move the "truth" by making a more extreme argument:

Argument 1: There were 100 casualties
Argument 2: There were 300 casualties
"Truth": There were 200 casualties

So your method not only can not determine the truth, but it also encourages extremism since the one who is the most extreme is the one who moves the "truth" closer to his position. This is therefore a very wrong way of determining the truth.

The way to find the truth, or at least get as close to it as possible, is to examine the historical facts and debate them, which is what I want to do, and you refuse to do so.

If you cared about the truth, then you would have accepted to take a point one by one, examine with historical facts, debate them with open mind, and come to a conclusion. Then move the next point and so on.

That is the way to get to the truth. Beyond that, if some extremists refuse to accept the truth even though they are totally unable to refute it with arguments, that is unfortunate. But I am not going to compromise the truth to make it something untrue, just so some extremists will like it as it would serve their equally extreme and criminal aims.

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis,

Of course we cannot change the historical facts ...But the way we look at them are very subjective...There is no disputing that the Ottomans conquered Cyprus in 1571....And they ruled till 1878....Fine so far...But the interpretation we can put on how they ruled and how tolerant they were etc is open to subjective analysis...What you are doing is putting the spin on the events to make the Ottomans look the villains and the GCs the victims...

The same goes for the British rule,and the 1960 agreements and the Constitution and what happened in 1963 etc....The facts cannot be challenged,but the TRUTH as you are presenting them is nothing but GC propaganda...And the TRUTH as Denktas would present would be nothing but TC propaganda...THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT...You are the chief GC propagandist in this Forum...Your TC equivalent is Viewpoint...

You are both putting your own spin on the events to make your side come up trumps...Even blind Freddie can see this now...So stop wasting your time and ours...What you two would say on any topic is so predictable you truly need not bother...

[Oracle]

Piratis,

Of course we cannot change the historical facts ...But the way we look at them are very subjective...There is no disputing that the Ottomans conquered Cyprus in 1571....And they ruled till 1878....Fine so far...But the interpretation we can put on how they ruled and how tolerant they were etc is open to subjective analysis...What you are doing is putting the spin on the events to make the Ottomans look the villains and the GCs the victims...

I for one would be interested in any examples where the villains were the people who never left their shores to invade anyone, but instead got invaded in their own country and had thousands of their people slaughtered in days, whilst trying to defend themselves against a well-recorded invading force (Ottoman-Turks), feared throughout Europe at the time ... How do you spin that Bir, to make the former people the villains and the latter people the victims in that initial invasion? (since you are the Master Fact-Fudger )

[Piratis]

Piratis,

Of course we cannot change the historical facts ...But the way we look at them are very subjective...There is no disputing that the Ottomans conquered Cyprus in 1571....And they ruled till 1878....Fine so far...But the interpretation we can put on how they ruled and how tolerant they were etc is open to subjective analysis...What you are doing is putting the spin on the events to make the Ottomans look the villains and the GCs the victims...

While your interpretation is what? That the GCs were the villains and the Ottomans the victims? The Ottomans have indeed been conquerors who used brute force to expand their empire and in this way have more people to enslave and exploit. You have any other interpretation? Maybe they came because they loved Cypriots so much and they wanted to save us from the Venetians? But if that was the case then how can the Turkish/Muslim colonization of Cyprus be explained? How can it be explained that GCs (Christians) paid double the taxes than the Muslims? How can it be explained that Christian testimony was not even accepted in courts? How the 1000s of Cypriots that were slaughtered by the Ottomans be explained?

If you disagree with my interpretation then give me yours.

The same goes for the British rule,and the 1960 agreements and the Constitution and what happened in 1963 etc....The facts cannot be challenged,but the TRUTH as you are presenting them is nothing but GC propaganda...And the TRUTH as Denktas would present would be nothing but TC propaganda...THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT...You are the chief GC propagandist in this Forum...Your TC equivalent is Viewpoint...

You are both putting your own spin on the events to make your side come up trumps...Even blind Freddie can see this now...So stop wasting your time and ours...What you two would say on any topic is so predictable you truly need not bother...

You are wrong. The Turkish propagandists do indeed try to manufacture history. It is not just about a different way of interpretation.

Take for example the main excuse that Turks give for their invasion of 1974. They would tell you that in 1974 the GCs were killing the poor TCs by the 100s and that is why they had to "intervene" in order to save the poor TCs from being killed.
But the historical fact is that in 1974 no TC was killed until after the Turks with the help of the TCs invaded Cyprus and started to kill and ethnically cleanse us.

The other main excuse of the TC minority is that the GCs attacked them in 1963, starting the inter-communal conflict and causing suffering to them.
While the historical fact is that it is the TCs who started the conflict in 1958 and collaborated with the British and forced on us the 1960 agreements.

So the main issue here is indeed the historical facts, not their interpretation. When all the facts are shown there is only so much difference in interpretation that can be made. This is why the Turkish propagandists are trying to manufacture history in order to excuse their actions. Because a different interpretation of historical facts is just not enough to give them any excuse.

[CBBB]

Interpretation has nothing to do with this.

It is the facts that are important.

The big problem is that everyone has been taught only the facts that suit their side!

[halil]

BİİİİİİİİİİİRRRRRRRRRRRRR,

you are wasting your valuable time GARDAŞCIĞIM.......


OKUNDURDUM YAZINDIRDIM .......

GENE BALAGUDALI ............................

GENE BALAGADALI...............................

[Piratis]

Interpretation has nothing to do with this.

It is the facts that are important.

The big problem is that everyone has been taught only the facts that suit their side!

Can you be more specific CBBB? Do you think that there is any important historical fact that I don't know about?

The problem is that some people want to consider only their suffering during a specific time. There are some GCs that would consider only what happened in 1974 and after, and think that they are the only ones who suffered, and claim that there was no problem in Cyprus before 1974.

Similarly there are some TCs that would consider only what happened between 63-74, think of themselves as the only victims, and insist that there was no problem before 63.

But I do consider all facts and I recognize the suffering of both sides. So what historical fact do you think I am unaware of (if any)?

[zan]

Interpretation has nothing to do with this.

It is the facts that are important.

The big problem is that everyone has been taught only the facts that suit their side!

Can you be more specific CBBB? Do you think that there is any important historical fact that I don't know about?

The problem is that some people want to consider only their suffering during a specific time. There are some GCs that would consider only what happened in 1974 and after, and think that they are the only ones who suffered, and claim that there was no problem in Cyprus before 1974.

Similarly there are some TCs that would consider only what happened between 63-74, think of themselves as the only victims, and insist that there was no problem before 63.

But I do consider all facts and I recognize the suffering of both sides. So what historical fact do you think I am unaware of (if any)?

Trying the old soft shoe shuffle....

[lovernomore]

Piratis,

Of course we cannot change the historical facts ...But the way we look at them are very subjective...There is no disputing that the Ottomans conquered Cyprus in 1571....And they ruled till 1878....Fine so far...But the interpretation we can put on how they ruled and how tolerant they were etc is open to subjective analysis...What you are doing is putting the spin on the events to make the Ottomans look the villains and the GCs the victims...

While your interpretation is what? That the GCs were the villains and the Ottomans the victims? The Ottomans have indeed been conquerors who used brute force to expand their empire and in this way have more people to enslave and exploit. You have any other interpretation? Maybe they came because they loved Cypriots so much and they wanted to save us from the Venetians? But if that was the case then how can the Turkish/Muslim colonization of Cyprus be explained? How can it be explained that GCs (Christians) paid double the taxes than the Muslims? How can it be explained that Christian testimony was not even accepted in courts? How the 1000s of Cypriots that were slaughtered by the Ottomans be explained?

If you disagree with my interpretation then give me yours.

The same goes for the British rule,and the 1960 agreements and the Constitution and what happened in 1963 etc....The facts cannot be challenged,but the TRUTH as you are presenting them is nothing but GC propaganda...And the TRUTH as Denktas would present would be nothing but TC propaganda...THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT...You are the chief GC propagandist in this Forum...Your TC equivalent is Viewpoint...

You are both putting your own spin on the events to make your side come up trumps...Even blind Freddie can see this now...So stop wasting your time and ours...What you two would say on any topic is so predictable you truly need not bother...

You are wrong. The Turkish propagandists do indeed try to manufacture history. It is not just about a different way of interpretation.

Take for example the main excuse that Turks give for their invasion of 1974. They would tell you that in 1974 the GCs were killing the poor TCs by the 100s and that is why they had to "intervene" in order to save the poor TCs from being killed.
But the historical fact is that in 1974 no TC was killed until after the Turks with the help of the TCs invaded Cyprus and started to kill and ethnically cleanse us.

The other main excuse of the TC minority is that the GCs attacked them in 1963, starting the inter-communal conflict and causing suffering to them.
While the historical fact is that it is the TCs who started the conflict in 1958 and collaborated with the British and forced on us the 1960 agreements.

So the main issue here is indeed the historical facts, not their interpretation. When all the facts are shown there is only so much difference in interpretation that can be made. This is why the Turkish propagandists are trying to manufacture history in order to excuse their actions. Because a different interpretation of historical facts is just not enough to give them any excuse.

when will this mashine blow a fuse. or even better just blow in thousan peices. 9108 post 9000 all same shit.

[growuptcs]

lovernomore:

when will this mashine blow a fuse. or even better just blow in thousan peices. 9108 post 9000 all same shit.

Your mid-evil mindset doesn't let you see past the GC home that your trying to hold on to so bad, that you wish death to any GC or TC that get in your way.