Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Respect to Piratis thoughts plz. U don't have to reply to him.

[Get Real!]

My english dont allow me to argue with this mashine,Bir is doin a good job.

All I want to say to piratis the mashine is......................................f**k off. You are a very badly desined machine. You are only good for the scrap.

So how many sets of those CDs do you want?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis,
repeating the same arguments ad infinitum does not make them right...
You are indeed like a machine...You are programmed to churn out the following arguments...

1.Nobody asked you to come here,your ancestors invaded in 1571....

Which is a fact. The same of course happened with the Latins. But today the Latin minority accepts that the island should be ruled democratically by the Cypriots themselves, so what happened during Latin rule is irrelevant. Today they respect us, and we respect them. The same can not be said for the TC minority, who still today act as if we are living in the middle ages, and collaborate with Turkey to deny democracy and human rights to the Cypriot people.

2.We have suffered terribly under the Ottoman yoke,but we forgive you...

Thats right.

3.Enosis was our right...You collaborated with foreign powers to stop us from achieving it...Because you wanted Taksim and you wanted to gain on our loss...

Yes. Maybe in addition to the above you had some fear about union with Greece, but this fear was not a real one but one put into your heads by the UK and Turkey. Rhodes who also has a turkish minority and who joined Greece just a few years earlier (1947) is an evidence to this fact.

4.The EOKA were freedom fighters,they never posed any threat to the TCs...

They posed a thread to TCs only [b]after the TCs collaborated with the British and attacked us.

5.The 1960 agreements and the constitution was forced upon us...Makarios had no choice but to sign it....His 13 ammendment proposals were legitimate and made only to facilitate better running of the government and more democracy...

Correct.

6.The TCs are responsible for everything...It is all their fault...They started killing GC civilians in 58,pulled out of government in 63, to facilitate Taksim and gain on our loss...

No. Who is responsible are the British colonialists and the Turkish imperialists. The TCs are just the pawns of Turkey.

7.It was the TMT that forced them into enclaves,the GCs and the goverment had nothing to do with it....They were not really afraid,there was nothing to be afraid of...

Wrong. There was a conflict, which TCs started, and therefore of course they should have been afraid because people were getting killed on both sides. But TMT did encourage them to do so, and along with Turkey they discouraged TCs from accepting a fair solution that would end the conflict.

8. The Sampson coup was our internal affair,not aimed at the TCs at all...
Turkey had no right to jump the gun and invade...They were only intending to topple Makarios to stop him getting too freindly with the Soviets...

The coup was a criminal act which the Cypriot people did not support, just like the many coups that happened in Turkey. Nobody invaded Turkey to protect the Greek or Kurdish minorities whenever a coup was happening there. The fact is that in 1974 no TC was killed by the coupists until after Turkey along with TCs invaded and started to put into action their partition plan by ethnically cleansing 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots.

9. Turkey practised ethnic cleansing,drove 200,000 GCs out of their homes,violated their human rights...

Nobody denies this.

10.We suffered more than you did and for longer...More GCs were killed and raped than TCs...It was all your fault anyway for starting it...Nobody asked you to come here in the first place...

It is a fact that GCs suffered more and for longer. Still GCs do not seek revenge for what happened in the past, they just want their rights. On the contrary, the TCs who suffered for much less time (and due to a conflict they started), seek revenge and are trying to use the past as an excuse to continue to deny to us our rights.

11.All we want is full democracy,the majority rule with minority rights...You are standing in the way...

That is all we ever wanted and that is what the British and Turks never allowed. (with your help)

12. Cyprus has always been Greek and it is a Greek island now...Cypriots are Greek and will always stay Greek....If you don't like it you know what you can do...[/b]

Cyprus like every other place has minorities which are different from the main population and there is absolutely no problem with that. Yes, if you don't like living among Greeks, Cyprus is the wrong island to be. However I don't see why you can't finally accept us for what we are so we can all live in a mutli-ethnic nation in peace with each other.

How am I going so far????

Average

Now here is my challenge to you,Piratis....
Put yourself in the place of an uncompromising,one-eyed TC and try to come up with the reciprocal arguments for each point I presented above...

I think it will do you a lot of good to try to put yourself in your equivalent TC's position...See what you come up with....

I am not interested in one sided arguments from either side. What I am interested is to the full truth, and truth can not be compromised.

So why don't you go over the points and try to correct me with facts and logical arguments, if you think I got any of them wrong?

I have no problem to acknowledge our wrong doings (e.g. crimes committed against you during the conflict) nor I will ever support criminals like Samson and his likes.

But you can not keep us responsible for things we are not. The intercommunal conflict was in fact started by the TCs in 1958. Also, non of all these would have happened if the British, the Turks and your minority, had accepted democracy and self-determination for the Cypriot people. If you had accepted this right instead of trying to impose your rule by force, then there would be no EOKA, no TMT, no liberation struggle, no inter-communal conflict and no suffering. Just a democratic peaceful referendum.

And the way to end this conflict today is for Turkey and you to finally stop insisting on these injustices that created the problem.

This is the mindset we have to deal with, asked to take litmus test he completly ignores the question and spouts out what we have heard 1000 times, there is noway he can answer the question anyway its an impossible task to ask of someone so narrow minded.

[BirKibrisli]

I am not interested in one sided arguments from either side. What I am interested is to the full truth, and truth can not be compromised.

So why don't you go over the points and try to correct me with facts and logical arguments, if you think I got any of them wrong?

I have no problem to acknowledge our wrong doings (e.g. crimes committed against you during the conflict) nor I will ever support criminals like Samson and his likes.

But you can not keep us responsible for things we are not. The intercommunal conflict was in fact started by the TCs in 1958. Also, non of all these would have happened if the British, the Turks and your minority, had accepted democracy and self-determination for the Cypriot people. If you had accepted this right instead of trying to impose your rule by force, then there would be no EOKA, no TMT, no liberation struggle, no inter-communal conflict and no suffering. Just a democratic peaceful referendum.

And the way to end this conflict today is for Turkey and you to finally stop insisting on these injustices that created the problem.

There is something wrong with me<Piratis...I can't get angry with you...

Look,Viewpoint thinks you can't do what I asked you to do.....
Why don't you prove him wrong????
Just go though each point and write down exactly what you think Rauf Denktash would say....
You have all day today to do this exercise...(All the morning and early afternoon in Cyprus)...If you do not I will do it for you tonight...And then we shall see if you can find any "truth" in them at all....

[Piratis]

So we have a conclusion:

1) Piratis can not think as a Turkish extremist. (I admit it!)

2) Piratis is right about all the facts and nobody here is able to even try to argue against those facts.

I think this concludes this discussion. If your aim was to prove that I can not think as a Turkish extremist then your aim is acheived. My aim was to show that what I say is nothing but the truth, and my aim is achieved as well.

If you want to talk as a Turkish extremist then go ahead, I can't stop you. But you should know that it will be very easy for me to refute any untrue extremist argument that you make, and I will do it, just to prove yet another point and add it to the 2 conclusions we have so far.

Extremist arguments (from both sides) are easy to refute. What nobody can refute are the true facts.

So it would have been much better if you forgot about extremism and concentrated on the truth and the historical facts. If you did so, then you would come to the same conclusions that I did (or very similar) and understand that what is needed to solve our problem is to finally allow human rights, democracy and self-determination to Cyprus.

If those principles were allowed for Cyprus then there would be no conflict and not suffering to begin with. But it is never too late to accept human rights and democracy and the moment those principles are accepted will be the moment that the Cyprus problem is solved. "Solutions" that include things like racist descriminations and human rights violations will solve nothing. If you care for the good of Cyprus this is something you need to understand.

[Viewpoint]

So we have a conclusion:

1) Piratis can not think as a Turkish extremist. (I admit it!)

2) Piratis is right about all the facts and nobody here is able to even try to argue against those facts.

I think this concludes this discussion. If your aim was to prove that I can not think as a Turkish extremist then your aim is acheived. My aim was to show that what I say is nothing but the truth, and my aim is achieved as well.

If you want to talk as a Turkish extremist then go ahead, I can't stop you. But you should know that it will be very easy for me to refute any untrue extremist argument that you make, and I will do it, just to prove yet another point and add it to the 2 conclusions we have so far.

Extremist arguments (from both sides) are easy to refute. What nobody can refute are the true facts.

So it would have been much better if you forgot about extremism and concentrated on the truth and the historical facts. If you did so, then you would come to the same conclusions that I did (or very similar) and understand that what is needed to solve our problem is to finally allow human rights, democracy and self-determination to Cyprus.

If those principles were allowed for Cyprus then there would be no conflict and not suffering to begin with. But it is never too late to accept human rights and democracy and the moment those principles are accepted will be the moment that the Cyprus problem is solved. "Solutions" that include things like racist descriminations and human rights violations will solve nothing. If you care for the good of Cyprus this is something you need to understand.

Another post from Piratis the Greek just proving why the Cyprus problem will never be solved, his versions are always the right ones and any counter arguements are dismissed because he is so blind to the facts and possibilities that he is wrong cannot enter his mind. This is called being despot believing your are 100% right all the time which no one ever is. His whole arguement is you are a minority and should accept living in a GC state holding an axe over our heads, so get rid of your protector and safeguards and trust me I wont chop your head off you can always complain to the EU if I do...well no one in their right mind is going to buy what you are selling Piratis, so repeating continously your version of events does not make them the right ones. You need to wake up to the fact that you have a partner and that any unification will mean you will have to ask us, work with us and get our approval and vice versa when running a new united Cyprus.

[Piratis]

So we have a conclusion:

1) Piratis can not think as a Turkish extremist. (I admit it!)

2) Piratis is right about all the facts and nobody here is able to even try to argue against those facts.

I think this concludes this discussion. If your aim was to prove that I can not think as a Turkish extremist then your aim is acheived. My aim was to show that what I say is nothing but the truth, and my aim is achieved as well.

If you want to talk as a Turkish extremist then go ahead, I can't stop you. But you should know that it will be very easy for me to refute any untrue extremist argument that you make, and I will do it, just to prove yet another point and add it to the 2 conclusions we have so far.

Extremist arguments (from both sides) are easy to refute. What nobody can refute are the true facts.

So it would have been much better if you forgot about extremism and concentrated on the truth and the historical facts. If you did so, then you would come to the same conclusions that I did (or very similar) and understand that what is needed to solve our problem is to finally allow human rights, democracy and self-determination to Cyprus.

If those principles were allowed for Cyprus then there would be no conflict and not suffering to begin with. But it is never too late to accept human rights and democracy and the moment those principles are accepted will be the moment that the Cyprus problem is solved. "Solutions" that include things like racist descriminations and human rights violations will solve nothing. If you care for the good of Cyprus this is something you need to understand.

Another post from Piratis the Greek just proving why the Cyprus problem will never be solved, his versions are always the right ones and any counter arguements are dismissed because he is so blind to the facts and possibilities that he is wrong cannot enter his mind. This is called being despot believing your are 100% right all the time which no one ever is. His whole arguement is you are a minority and should accept living in a GC state holding an axe over our heads, so get rid of your protector and safeguards and trust me I wont chop your head off you can always complain to the EU if I do...well no one in their right mind is going to buy what you are selling Piratis, so repeating continously your version of events does not make them the right ones. You need to wake up to the fact that you have a partner and that any unification will mean you will have to ask us, work with us and get our approval and vice versa when running a new united Cyprus.

"My version of Events"? Really?

Ok, lets take the points that Bir gave with my corrections one by one and lets see if you would be able to prove me wrong:

1.Nobody asked you to come here,your ancestors invaded in 1571....

Supporting facts:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... CID+cy0017)

Do you want to dispute this point or should we move to the next one?

[Piratis]

Some more info for the above point posted by your own Halil:

After the conquer of Cyprus in 1571, Ottoman administration sent some people to the island as a fact of their settlement policy. There were two waves of people settlement to Cyprus. The first one was, from 1572 to the end of the XVI. century and the second, was from 1699 to 1745. The main paper about this settlement is a ferman of Sultan Selim the Second, which was written 20th September 1572. In this ferman it was ordered to the governors of Anatolia, Karamania, Zulkadiria and Rum provinces to select the people whom didn’t have enough land to make agriculture, wasn’t registered in a village population, who was known as a rebel (Turkmen population of those provinces was described with all of these criterias) and beside them ten percent of the industrial people; for sending Cyprus, by force. First of all, we have to say that all of those provinces were old Turkmen tribe governments (called Beylik), which was recently collaberated with the empire. It is known that, population of those provinces were Turkmens. For example, Zulkadiriya people were a mixture of Yureghir and Kynyk tribes and some independent clans, which was called as Zulkadiria Ulusu. Karamania people were Bozdoğan tribe, which was coming from main Oghouz branch, Üçoklar. The people of Rum province was a mixture of Beghdili, Bayat and other tribes which was coming from main branch Bozoklar and even a part of province was called Bozok, itself. And Anatolia province was another Turkmen area which even İbn-Batuta described as a “ Turkmen Yatagy” (Bed of Turkmens) on the Xll. Century.**
Beside of this main “ferman” there are some separated, fermans, which are ordering to settle people Cyprus by force. For example, we’ve found two fermans, written in 1576 and 1577, to the governor of Bozok District and was ordering send the people to Cyprus by force which was suspected them as supporters of Is mail Saphevi of Iran, the Shah of Kizilbash heterodox Islamic belief of Turkmens. (29 no. Muhimme defteri Ferman no: 490 and 30. No Muhimme Defteri, Ferman No: 488) And another ferman, which was written at the same year and ordering to send Ramazan of the Bozdoğan (a branch of Üçoks) to Cyprus, with his family and all of the supporters of him with their own families because of a rebellition. (That rebels called Koseli and even now there is a family living at the settlement area, which is called Koseli)( Anadolu’da Turkmen Aşiretleri Ahmet Refik) In another sample, there is a ferman, written 1576 and ordered to the Hamiteli district’s governor, to send the famous rebel Karahaci to Cyprus. (64 No.lu Muhimme defteri) Even in those days, at the old settlement area if somebody knocks a door at night time and the owners of the house ask, who is it that knocking the door, it is a folkloric joke to say: “ It’s me: Karahaci!” for freighting the hosts!

According to these fermans, it is known that, from 1572 to the end of XVI. Century, 8000 families settled to Cyprus, instead of planned 12000 families. (Muhimme defteri no.43 241 sayılı hüküm) We can easily understand that most of the population which was settled to the island was Turkmens of Anatolia because there is a paper in Ottoman Archive which is ordering “only Turks and Muslims must be sent to Cyprus”.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=254799

[Viewpoint]

So we have a conclusion:

1) Piratis can not think as a Turkish extremist. (I admit it!)

2) Piratis is right about all the facts and nobody here is able to even try to argue against those facts.

I think this concludes this discussion. If your aim was to prove that I can not think as a Turkish extremist then your aim is acheived. My aim was to show that what I say is nothing but the truth, and my aim is achieved as well.

If you want to talk as a Turkish extremist then go ahead, I can't stop you. But you should know that it will be very easy for me to refute any untrue extremist argument that you make, and I will do it, just to prove yet another point and add it to the 2 conclusions we have so far.

Extremist arguments (from both sides) are easy to refute. What nobody can refute are the true facts.

So it would have been much better if you forgot about extremism and concentrated on the truth and the historical facts. If you did so, then you would come to the same conclusions that I did (or very similar) and understand that what is needed to solve our problem is to finally allow human rights, democracy and self-determination to Cyprus.

If those principles were allowed for Cyprus then there would be no conflict and not suffering to begin with. But it is never too late to accept human rights and democracy and the moment those principles are accepted will be the moment that the Cyprus problem is solved. "Solutions" that include things like racist descriminations and human rights violations will solve nothing. If you care for the good of Cyprus this is something you need to understand.

Another post from Piratis the Greek just proving why the Cyprus problem will never be solved, his versions are always the right ones and any counter arguements are dismissed because he is so blind to the facts and possibilities that he is wrong cannot enter his mind. This is called being despot believing your are 100% right all the time which no one ever is. His whole arguement is you are a minority and should accept living in a GC state holding an axe over our heads, so get rid of your protector and safeguards and trust me I wont chop your head off you can always complain to the EU if I do...well no one in their right mind is going to buy what you are selling Piratis, so repeating continously your version of events does not make them the right ones. You need to wake up to the fact that you have a partner and that any unification will mean you will have to ask us, work with us and get our approval and vice versa when running a new united Cyprus.

"My version of Events"? Really?

Ok, lets take the points that Bir gave with my corrections one by one and lets see if you would be able to prove me wrong:

1.Nobody asked you to come here,your ancestors invaded in 1571....

Supporting facts:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... CID+cy0017)

Do you want to dispute this point or should we move to the next one?

Events dating back to 1571 may effect your revenge seeking psychology but for the start for many was the break we made to start an independent state the 1960 agrreements, anything before that was just why we needed the 1960 agreements and the contents there enclosed, you dont want to start here because you again did not get what you wanted and had no inteintion of sticking to the rules, it took you only 3 years before you starting crying that you were forced into this agreement and that if the 13 points changing the whole structure of the agreement were not accepted you would play by your own rules anyway.

[Piratis]

So we have a conclusion:

1) Piratis can not think as a Turkish extremist. (I admit it!)

2) Piratis is right about all the facts and nobody here is able to even try to argue against those facts.

I think this concludes this discussion. If your aim was to prove that I can not think as a Turkish extremist then your aim is acheived. My aim was to show that what I say is nothing but the truth, and my aim is achieved as well.

If you want to talk as a Turkish extremist then go ahead, I can't stop you. But you should know that it will be very easy for me to refute any untrue extremist argument that you make, and I will do it, just to prove yet another point and add it to the 2 conclusions we have so far.

Extremist arguments (from both sides) are easy to refute. What nobody can refute are the true facts.

So it would have been much better if you forgot about extremism and concentrated on the truth and the historical facts. If you did so, then you would come to the same conclusions that I did (or very similar) and understand that what is needed to solve our problem is to finally allow human rights, democracy and self-determination to Cyprus.

If those principles were allowed for Cyprus then there would be no conflict and not suffering to begin with. But it is never too late to accept human rights and democracy and the moment those principles are accepted will be the moment that the Cyprus problem is solved. "Solutions" that include things like racist descriminations and human rights violations will solve nothing. If you care for the good of Cyprus this is something you need to understand.

Another post from Piratis the Greek just proving why the Cyprus problem will never be solved, his versions are always the right ones and any counter arguements are dismissed because he is so blind to the facts and possibilities that he is wrong cannot enter his mind. This is called being despot believing your are 100% right all the time which no one ever is. His whole arguement is you are a minority and should accept living in a GC state holding an axe over our heads, so get rid of your protector and safeguards and trust me I wont chop your head off you can always complain to the EU if I do...well no one in their right mind is going to buy what you are selling Piratis, so repeating continously your version of events does not make them the right ones. You need to wake up to the fact that you have a partner and that any unification will mean you will have to ask us, work with us and get our approval and vice versa when running a new united Cyprus.

"My version of Events"? Really?

Ok, lets take the points that Bir gave with my corrections one by one and lets see if you would be able to prove me wrong:

1.Nobody asked you to come here,your ancestors invaded in 1571....

Supporting facts:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... CID+cy0017)

Do you want to dispute this point or should we move to the next one?

Events dating back to 1571 may effect your revenge seeking psychology but for the start for many was the break we made to start an independent state the 1960 agrreements, anything before that was just why we needed the 1960 agreements and the contents there enclosed, you dont want to start here because you again did not get what you wanted and had no inteintion of sticking to the rules, it took you only 3 years before you starting crying that you were forced into this agreement and that if the 13 points changing the whole structure of the agreement were not accepted you would play by your own rules anyway.

Oh, so that is "too old"? so you don't dispute it as true?

So which of those 12 points posted by Bir and corrected by me do you dispute? None?

Also let me ask you something Viewpoint, do you accept that history is a chain of events and that nothing happens out of the blue?

If history is not a chain of events and what happened in 1958 is not related with what happened in 1963, then what happened in 1974 is not related with what happened before either, right?

Or you want to start and stop history whenever it suits you. Everything that doesn't suit you is either "too old and unrelated", or "too new and excused because of previous events", right VP?

The 1960 constitution was forced on the Cypriot people and your attacks of 1958 are very related because that is how you and the British forced on us that unfair constitution which didn't work. If the Cypriot people were allowed to make their own constitution or decide the destiny of their own island in a peaceful and democratic way, then they would have chosen something that they liked and therefore there wouldn't be any need to change it any time soon.