Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu,
I have just had some visitors from the trnc...Old friends who have never left the island,and who still live and work there...A couple in their 50s....
I questioned them at length about life in the trnc. Yes,they are concerned about the number of settlers and how that is impacting on the TC society and culture..But they still believe that without the Turkish soldiers their lives and the lives of their children would be at risk....So,what Viewpoint says is correct...Most TCs living in Cyprus now would rather assimilate into the Turkish society than risk their physical safety...

You and I can argue from a distance about the virtues of democracy and European civilisation,but it cuts no ice with these people...They think they need special protection...I think it was Samarkeolog who put his finger on the problem, perhaps earlier in this thread..In democracies no one needs special consideration or protection...The state security forces are capable of protecting everyone....But if the state and its security forces are dominated and controled by individuals or groups who are hostile to a certain minority,then this minority does need special protection/safeguards...This was the case in Cyprus during 1963-74....At least that was the perception within TC minds....The times have changed,but nothing has been done to convince the TCs during the past 34 years that this is the case...Old fears are still there almost as fresh as in 1964...This is the tragedy we are facing...All those years lost,where, as miltiades says,much could have been done to instal trust and confidence...
Words of reassurance are not enough...Action is needed to convince the TCs that the present lot of power wielders and controllers of security forces in the RoC are not hostile to the TCs....No action is forthcoming...Only insistance by some that "Cyprus is Greek"....

Don't you think there is a problem here????

Hi Bir,

There are problems all over the place I'm afraid. The question is, whose do you solve first at the expense of the other, because each one will want theirs to be solved first before protection is given to others. Your friends are no exception to the rule, and there are thousands of cases from both sides I'm sure, since both sides did their very best to harm the other, if not all physically, emotionally. Look at the waitress I met in Ayia Napa, the mother of three children who lives close to the Green Line across from Famagusta, that she is constantly afraid that the Turkish Troops will one day shoot her from a distance. How real is that threat really. To me I did not see any, because I happened to have driven to her town, but to her, it was real. Now, we can argue just to make her feel safe, she would like to see the TT leave first before anything else, so where do we statrt first is the question.

I understand the situation more than some people give me credit for. It was no accident, that when I drew up my "Kofi Kikapu's Peace Plan for Cyprus" for what it was worth ( http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055 ) it was to take place over 10 years with gradual changes made. But I'm not in a position of power, and those who are from the TC side are bunch of useless puppets, who really believe they are calling the shots with all the bravado that they spew out with demands that will never be met. Peace is not difficult to achieve. It has been done hundreds of times with wars and atrocities megatons bigger than ours. So the problem is not that we can't put every one's mind at peace eventually, and at some point when all peace starts, it starts with a lot of apprehensions, but we are no longer at the same place where we were in the 60's and 70's when a lot of all this crap happened. Time has moved on, but for some, it really has not.

In all honesty, there is nothing the GC's can do or say to make the TC's feel comfortable with promises. That job lies with the leaders of the TC community, but you watch these idiots, all they talk about negative crap and their unlimited support for Turkey and no peace without guarantors from Turkey, and veto power and 50% power share, and own independent sovereign state just because Talat gives a speech in Turkish somewhere and then says "you see, the fact that I'm speaking Turkish to you right now, then there must be two people in Cyprus", insinuating there should be two sovereign states built on mostly stolen GC land, so yes my friend, I'm not surprised that your friends are confused and untrusting of the GC's, because their leaders are letting them down big time, because since the days of Denktash when they were all kept isolated, they were well and truly brainwashed, which seems to continue today from what I'm seeing and hearing by our so called leaders.

So what is the answer you may ask.? One thing for certain for me, is not to continue violating any one's Democratic and Human Rights and start the ball rolling in the right direction for a change in this 21st century when we are part of the EU. We are never going to please and address every one's concerns. They too need to become active in peace and help build trust rather than wait and see what others are going to do for them. I was very apprehensive when I visited the RoC 2 years ago, and most of that fear was fed to me by all the propagandist on this forum and as it turned out, they were all dismissed after the first two days. I would like to know whether your friends have ever crossed into the south at all in the last 5 years. If they have, are they at least not able to see things are not what they were told it was. Again, it is not for me to judge others level of fear, but at some point, we all need to bite the bullet and move forward.

As far as the security forces which may be in the hands of the GC's at the moment and trust is not given to them, we too can have security forces in the northern state once the BBF is established. Unlike before, 95% of the TC's will live in the northern state, so just there, there will be security in numbers unlike before where we were all spread out. This alone will make confidence building easier. The other option is of course, if all the TC's are shit scared, and if that was the case, I'm sorry to hear that, then why have they not demanded to have a formal partition at much reduced land and build a wall 10 meters high and forget about Democracy European style. They won't even get into the EU as a sovereign state and that will suit some just fine, and then we will see just how much they will be able to tolerate the settlers, or shall I say how much the settlers will tolerate the remaining few thousand TC's when the settlers take over the power structure from the TC's who are enjoying it right now. If I was that scared for my life, I will take the smaller land and the 10 meters wall any day of the week, but NO, that has not been the case. So once again, what is real.? We really don't know for sure. Why not take the security with some land and be done with it, assuming the GC's will go for it of course.!

I have been under the weather lately and have not had the energy to discuss True Federation USA style that I promised VP, that will take away most of the TC's concerns when it comes to "safeguards". Perhaps this weekend. This is the job of our puppets to tell our people what needs to be done, but all hear from them is a lot of complaints about what the GC politicians said or did and a lot of Bravado. If Turkey was to pull her troops, you watch these so called politicians get their crap together and find a suitable solution that can address most peoples concerns, because they will not have anyone to hide behind with all their Bravado talk..

If the Turkish troops go wont that leave us exposed to GC exploitation and danger?

[Nikitas]

"Is it about time that the EUs' largest countries decide to do a Makarios and change the "Constitution" to allow for a one man one vote process? How can the "RoC" have the same voting power as...say....Germany with a hundred million people??? "

Well Zan, it is in the process of changing to reflect the populations of member nations. It is called the Lisbon agreement. And it is the reason why turkey with 80 million will not get it.

And it is not as unfair as you protraty now, the European Parliament has seats allocated per population, it is seats in the Commission that go by nation, and the Veto is there for all countries, it is not the same as a vote.

[BirKibrisli]

Yours is a voice of sanity,dear miltiades...
I have no intension of continuing this discussion with GR! and
Piratis...We will just have to agree that we see things totally differently...
They want me to sympathise and empathise with what happened to the GCs 450 years ago,and all through till 1878, when I was not even a speck of dust flying in my ancestors' universe....But they refuse to sympathise and empathise with what happened to the TCs during 1963-74,which was in my living memory...During which my family lost eveything and had to become refugees and I had to go into exile.....Fine,great...They can carry on showing the finger and see where it will get us...

We will continue to be the voice of empathy,compassion and sanity....
There is too much at stake...We cannot let blame-assigners and war -mongers run riot...

Dont let lost souls like Piratis get to you yegen. His only function here is to play his own trumpet. I am too polite to tell him where to stick it.

The sad thing is,Deniz,I know that Piratis is a decent,intelligent person...
To be this one-sided,this blind about our common history,they must've done a really good propaganda job on him when young...Like they have done a really good propaganda job on certain TCs in this forum who can only see their own side of the story...I have written hundreds and hundreds of posts in the past showing empathy and compassion for the GCs....I said I understood their demand for Enosis given the circumstances...He has not once reciprocated...He has not once said "yes ,I agree this was a very thoughtless and insensitive act which has caused great heartache for the TCs"...Empathy and compassion need to be reciprocated or it burns out....Nobody in their right mind can think that this entire mess is the fault of one side only...Yet there are many people here,apparently intelligent and thoughtful, who refuse out of hand to see their role in the bloody conflict....I am at a loss to explain it...
Do you have any idea why ????

Bir, if what I was saying was one sided and propaganda then you would have arguments to refute the facts that I give. So where are your arguments?

I have many times showed empathy and acknowledged your suffering. I never denied that you suffered as well and that you also had casualties during the conflict. In fact the President of Cyprus has done the same in the most official way, while your side not only it did not reciprocate, but they continue celebrating their crimes against us!

So we don't disagree on the fact that both sides suffered during the conflict. I know you recognize our suffering during the conflict, and be sure that I recognize your suffering as well and I am extremely sorry that innocent people suffered.

Where we disagree, and this is a matter of historical facts and not empathy, is why the conflict started.

You claim that this mess can not be the fault of one side only. It can, when one side is a foreign empire trying to impose its rule and serve its interests, and the other side is the oppressed native people seeking their freedom and self-determination. It happened not only in Cyprus, but in just about every place that colonialists have been.

EOKA was formed to fight for the freedom of Cyprus from colonial rule so the Cypriot people could gain their self-determination so they themselves could decide the destiny of their own island. And as I have shown many times, union with Greece would have been a legitimate option if this is what the Cypriot people democratically chose.

EOKA was formed to fight against the colonialists, not against the TCs. It is only after TCs choose to attack GCs in 1958 that EOKA was forced to retaliate.

And here lies our disagreement Bir. You want me to denounce our self-determination rights, and the organization we formed to fight against our oppressors, just because those oppressors armed you and gave you incentives in order to turn you against us and start the inter-communal conflict! Sorry Bir, but I will not denounce our self-determination rights, neither I will denounce our right to fight with all means possible against foreign invaders.

While during the conflict that followed crimes were committed against innocent people from both sides, the why and how that conflict started lies solely on the colonialists who denied to the Cypriot people their self-determination and armed the TC minority and gave to them incentives to fight against us.

The way the conflict could have been avoided was not by expecting the Cypriot people to sacrifice their self-termination and human rights, but by allowing the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically chose the destiny of their own island with a referendum, something which we have been asking for many many years and was always refused to us.

Piratis,
The frustrating thing about you is that you have already made up your mind..And it is closed to all arguments or logic....Essentially you are saying that because the Ottoman's invaded Cyprus back in 1571 we have to look no further....Everything that happened during the 40s and 50s and 60s was inevitable and it was entirely the fault of the TCs because their ancestors invaded all those years ago...There is nothing I can say that will change anything...You see Enosis as your right to self determination...But you will not admit that it put the fear of death into the TCs and left them open to manipulation....You did not live through or do not remember the events of the 50s and 60s....I did...I can tell you that the fear of EOKA was very real and very big amongst the TCs...And you are wrong about the killings starting in 1958...EOKA had began killing TC policemen and the auxillaries as early as 1956....The trouble with you is,you have organised eveything very neatly in your mind...And you have justified everything bad that was caused by EOKA and the demand for Enosis...You cannot see that your freedom fighters were our terrorists and vice versa...They were terrorist becuase they terrorised us,and some of us still have anxiety attacks today as a result of what we went through as a child in Cyprus....Telling me that it was the fault of the Ottomans for invading Cyprus is not going to make me feel any better...Stop hiding behind intellectual arguments like self-determination and human rights and democracy European style....People who are traumatised want to see their pain and suffering acknowledged first...Then they expect some sort of appology or expression of regret or at least some understanding of their plight...Then they want to make sure that what they went through in the past will not revisit them in the future...Telling them it was the fault of the Ottomans for invading in the fisrst place is so callous and unthinking...

You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge that Makarios and all his GC cronies were committing an act of treachery against the Republic of Cyprus...They held positions of power and took the oath of office which was to upheld the independence and sovereignty of Cyprus,but they were working from the inside to make Cyprus a province of Greece...In any other democratic state they would've been tried for treason and sentenced to life in prison if not to death...The only thing that saved them was that they held all the power and they could do whatever they wanted,so they felt....But this will cut no ice with you I know...you will say the agreement was forced on us etc etc...If you can only see the positive side of the EOKA, and the demand for Enosis, and the breaking up of the Republic and withdrawal of the TCs from power ,and refuse to acknowledge their fight for survival in their enclaves during 1963-74,and put the entire blame on them for "walking out",there is nothing else I can tell you...You are as blind as a bat,and as unmovable as a brick wall...

[BirKibrisli]

Kikapu,
I have just had some visitors from the trnc...Old friends who have never left the island,and who still live and work there...A couple in their 50s....
I questioned them at length about life in the trnc. Yes,they are concerned about the number of settlers and how that is impacting on the TC society and culture..But they still believe that without the Turkish soldiers their lives and the lives of their children would be at risk....So,what Viewpoint says is correct...Most TCs living in Cyprus now would rather assimilate into the Turkish society than risk their physical safety...

You and I can argue from a distance about the virtues of democracy and European civilisation,but it cuts no ice with these people...They think they need special protection...I think it was Samarkeolog who put his finger on the problem, perhaps earlier in this thread..In democracies no one needs special consideration or protection...The state security forces are capable of protecting everyone....But if the state and its security forces are dominated and controled by individuals or groups who are hostile to a certain minority,then this minority does need special protection/safeguards...This was the case in Cyprus during 1963-74....At least that was the perception within TC minds....The times have changed,but nothing has been done to convince the TCs during the past 34 years that this is the case...Old fears are still there almost as fresh as in 1964...This is the tragedy we are facing...All those years lost,where, as miltiades says,much could have been done to instal trust and confidence...
Words of reassurance are not enough...Action is needed to convince the TCs that the present lot of power wielders and controllers of security forces in the RoC are not hostile to the TCs....No action is forthcoming...Only insistance by some that "Cyprus is Greek"....

Don't you think there is a problem here????

Hi Bir,

There are problems all over the place I'm afraid. The question is, whose do you solve first at the expense of the other, because each one will want theirs to be solved first before protection is given to others. Your friends are no exception to the rule, and there are thousands of cases from both sides I'm sure, since both sides did their very best to harm the other, if not all physically, emotionally. Look at the waitress I met in Ayia Napa, the mother of three children who lives close to the Green Line across from Famagusta, that she is constantly afraid that the Turkish Troops will one day shoot her from a distance. How real is that threat really. To me I did not see any, because I happened to have driven to her town, but to her, it was real. Now, we can argue just to make her feel safe, she would like to see the TT leave first before anything else, so where do we statrt first is the question.

I understand the situation more than some people give me credit for. It was no accident, that when I drew up my "Kofi Kikapu's Peace Plan for Cyprus" for what it was worth ( http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055 ) it was to take place over 10 years with gradual changes made. But I'm not in a position of power, and those who are from the TC side are bunch of useless puppets, who really believe they are calling the shots with all the bravado that they spew out with demands that will never be met. Peace is not difficult to achieve. It has been done hundreds of times with wars and atrocities megatons bigger than ours. So the problem is not that we can't put every one's mind at peace eventually, and at some point when all peace starts, it starts with a lot of apprehensions, but we are no longer at the same place where we were in the 60's and 70's when a lot of all this crap happened. Time has moved on, but for some, it really has not.

In all honesty, there is nothing the GC's can do or say to make the TC's feel comfortable with promises. That job lies with the leaders of the TC community, but you watch these idiots, all they talk about negative crap and their unlimited support for Turkey and no peace without guarantors from Turkey, and veto power and 50% power share, and own independent sovereign state just because Talat gives a speech in Turkish somewhere and then says "you see, the fact that I'm speaking Turkish to you right now, then there must be two people in Cyprus", insinuating there should be two sovereign states built on mostly stolen GC land, so yes my friend, I'm not surprised that your friends are confused and untrusting of the GC's, because their leaders are letting them down big time, because since the days of Denktash when they were all kept isolated, they were well and truly brainwashed, which seems to continue today from what I'm seeing and hearing by our so called leaders.

So what is the answer you may ask.? One thing for certain for me, is not to continue violating any one's Democratic and Human Rights and start the ball rolling in the right direction for a change in this 21st century when we are part of the EU. We are never going to please and address every one's concerns. They too need to become active in peace and help build trust rather than wait and see what others are going to do for them. I was very apprehensive when I visited the RoC 2 years ago, and most of that fear was fed to me by all the propagandist on this forum and as it turned out, they were all dismissed after the first two days. I would like to know whether your friends have ever crossed into the south at all in the last 5 years. If they have, are they at least not able to see things are not what they were told it was. Again, it is not for me to judge others level of fear, but at some point, we all need to bite the bullet and move forward.

As far as the security forces which may be in the hands of the GC's at the moment and trust is not given to them, we too can have security forces in the northern state once the BBF is established. Unlike before, 95% of the TC's will live in the northern state, so just there, there will be security in numbers unlike before where we were all spread out. This alone will make confidence building easier. The other option is of course, if all the TC's are shit scared, and if that was the case, I'm sorry to hear that, then why have they not demanded to have a formal partition at much reduced land and build a wall 10 meters high and forget about Democracy European style. They won't even get into the EU as a sovereign state and that will suit some just fine, and then we will see just how much they will be able to tolerate the settlers, or shall I say how much the settlers will tolerate the remaining few thousand TC's when the settlers take over the power structure from the TC's who are enjoying it right now. If I was that scared for my life, I will take the smaller land and the 10 meters wall any day of the week, but NO, that has not been the case. So once again, what is real.? We really don't know for sure. Why not take the security with some land and be done with it, assuming the GC's will go for it of course.!

I have been under the weather lately and have not had the energy to discuss True Federation USA style that I promised VP, that will take away most of the TC's concerns when it comes to "safeguards". Perhaps this weekend. This is the job of our puppets to tell our people what needs to be done, but all hear from them is a lot of complaints about what the GC politicians said or did and a lot of Bravado. If Turkey was to pull her troops, you watch these so called politicians get their crap together and find a suitable solution that can address most peoples concerns, because they will not have anyone to hide behind with all their Bravado talk..

There is little that I can argue against these rather logical and intellectual arguments,Kikapu...And there lies our big problem...If simple logic and intellectual arguments were enough Cyprob would have been solved by now...Both communities have been deeply traumatised by the bloody events,but no one is really acknowledging this,let alone doing anything about it...So much time has been wasted with brainwashing and propaganda on both sides...And very little time on discovering the truth,healing wounds,building trust etc...There are murderer on both side still walking around with immunity...The emotional toll on both communities have been enormous....I am coming to the conclusion that it is impossible to solve this problem...Our famous Cypriot temperament is working against all logic and reason...We like to be right and put the entire blame on others for everything that goes wrong...Then we scream for help and expect 2nd,3rd or 4th parties to come and solve our problems for us...But we refuse all suggestions becuase we do not like to compromise,it is our way or the highway...I don't have the energy or the motivation to keep hitting my head against the brick wall...You have obviously benefited greatly from living amonst the level headed,cool,logical Swiss people...Good luck

[Piratis]

Yours is a voice of sanity,dear miltiades...
I have no intension of continuing this discussion with GR! and
Piratis...We will just have to agree that we see things totally differently...
They want me to sympathise and empathise with what happened to the GCs 450 years ago,and all through till 1878, when I was not even a speck of dust flying in my ancestors' universe....But they refuse to sympathise and empathise with what happened to the TCs during 1963-74,which was in my living memory...During which my family lost eveything and had to become refugees and I had to go into exile.....Fine,great...They can carry on showing the finger and see where it will get us...

We will continue to be the voice of empathy,compassion and sanity....
There is too much at stake...We cannot let blame-assigners and war -mongers run riot...

Dont let lost souls like Piratis get to you yegen. His only function here is to play his own trumpet. I am too polite to tell him where to stick it.

The sad thing is,Deniz,I know that Piratis is a decent,intelligent person...
To be this one-sided,this blind about our common history,they must've done a really good propaganda job on him when young...Like they have done a really good propaganda job on certain TCs in this forum who can only see their own side of the story...I have written hundreds and hundreds of posts in the past showing empathy and compassion for the GCs....I said I understood their demand for Enosis given the circumstances...He has not once reciprocated...He has not once said "yes ,I agree this was a very thoughtless and insensitive act which has caused great heartache for the TCs"...Empathy and compassion need to be reciprocated or it burns out....Nobody in their right mind can think that this entire mess is the fault of one side only...Yet there are many people here,apparently intelligent and thoughtful, who refuse out of hand to see their role in the bloody conflict....I am at a loss to explain it...
Do you have any idea why ????

Bir, if what I was saying was one sided and propaganda then you would have arguments to refute the facts that I give. So where are your arguments?

I have many times showed empathy and acknowledged your suffering. I never denied that you suffered as well and that you also had casualties during the conflict. In fact the President of Cyprus has done the same in the most official way, while your side not only it did not reciprocate, but they continue celebrating their crimes against us!

So we don't disagree on the fact that both sides suffered during the conflict. I know you recognize our suffering during the conflict, and be sure that I recognize your suffering as well and I am extremely sorry that innocent people suffered.

Where we disagree, and this is a matter of historical facts and not empathy, is why the conflict started.

You claim that this mess can not be the fault of one side only. It can, when one side is a foreign empire trying to impose its rule and serve its interests, and the other side is the oppressed native people seeking their freedom and self-determination. It happened not only in Cyprus, but in just about every place that colonialists have been.

EOKA was formed to fight for the freedom of Cyprus from colonial rule so the Cypriot people could gain their self-determination so they themselves could decide the destiny of their own island. And as I have shown many times, union with Greece would have been a legitimate option if this is what the Cypriot people democratically chose.

EOKA was formed to fight against the colonialists, not against the TCs. It is only after TCs choose to attack GCs in 1958 that EOKA was forced to retaliate.

And here lies our disagreement Bir. You want me to denounce our self-determination rights, and the organization we formed to fight against our oppressors, just because those oppressors armed you and gave you incentives in order to turn you against us and start the inter-communal conflict! Sorry Bir, but I will not denounce our self-determination rights, neither I will denounce our right to fight with all means possible against foreign invaders.

While during the conflict that followed crimes were committed against innocent people from both sides, the why and how that conflict started lies solely on the colonialists who denied to the Cypriot people their self-determination and armed the TC minority and gave to them incentives to fight against us.

The way the conflict could have been avoided was not by expecting the Cypriot people to sacrifice their self-termination and human rights, but by allowing the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically chose the destiny of their own island with a referendum, something which we have been asking for many many years and was always refused to us.

Piratis,
The frustrating thing about you is that you have already made up your mind..And it is closed to all arguments or logic....Essentially you are saying that because the Ottoman's invaded Cyprus back in 1571 we have to look no further....Everything that happened during the 40s and 50s and 60s was inevitable and it was entirely the fault of the TCs because their ancestors invaded all those years ago...

Where did I say such thing?? Are you for real?
On the contrary I said about a 100 times, that the GCs forgave the TCs for all that oppression and we lived peacefully with each other until you decided to attack us again in 1958.

What happened in the 50s and 60s was the fault of the Colonialists and those who cooperated with them (=TCs) to deny to the Cypriot people their rights. I am talking about their actions in that time, not before. Get it now?

There is nothing I can say that will change anything...You see Enosis as your right to self determination

It is.

...But you will not admit that it put the fear of death into the TCs and left them open to manipulation....You did not live through or do not remember the events of the 50s and 60s....I did...I can tell you that the fear of EOKA was very real and very big amongst the TCs...

Why the Turks that live in Rhodes who united with Greece in 1947 did not have "the fear of death"? If you had such fear this was not put by our legitimate right for self-determination and union with Greece, but by those who put such fears in your minds, i.e. Britain and Turkey. So how is it our fault that you believed the British and the Turks and allowed youselves to be manipulated by them?

And you are wrong about the killings starting in 1958...EOKA had began killing TC policemen and the auxillaries as early as 1956

Those TCs were volunteers of the British army and police and their job was to kill every Cypriot freedom fighter.
The inter-communal conflict was indeed started by the TCs in 1958 when they attacked and started to kill innocent unarmed people.

Here are British made videos describing both events:

....The trouble with you is,you have organised eveything very neatly in your mind...

I think it is time for you to do the same.

And you have justified everything bad that was caused by EOKA and the demand for Enosis...You cannot see that your freedom fighters were our terrorists and vice versa...They were terrorist becuase they terrorised us,and some of us still have anxiety attacks today as a result of what we went through as a child in Cyprus

No mate. Go and read again my post. I never denied that during the conflict you suffered and you had casulties. That is how conflicts are.

What I am saying here is that you started the conflict which both communities suffered.

....Telling me that it was the fault of the Ottomans for invading Cyprus is not going to make me feel any better

I will write it again: It was your fault for collaborating with the British and attacking us, starting the inter-communal conflict.

...Stop hiding behind intellectual arguments like self-determination and human rights and democracy European style

So that is all human rights and democracy are for you? We are very different.

....People who are traumatised want to see their pain and suffering acknowledged first

Their pain and suffering is acknowledge. They started a war against us and we both suffered. Satisfied? Or you want us to be blamed for the conflict which you started?

...Then they expect some sort of appology or expression of regret or at least some understanding of their plight...

Where is your apology for collaborating with the British and later with Turkey and denying to the Cypriot people their right for self-determination?
You want us to apologize for causing to you suffering in the war which you started against us, but you don't want to acknowledge that it is you who started the conflict. You want to blame everything on us.

Then they want to make sure that what they went through in the past will not revisit them in the future...Telling them it was the fault of the Ottomans for invading in the fisrst place is so callous and unthinking...

No mate. It is their fault for collaborating with the British and denying to the Cypriot people their right for self-determination. If they want to make sure that such things will not happen again they they should accept democracy and human rights for all Cypriots without racist descriminations.

You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge that Makarios and all his GC cronies were committing an act of treachery against the Republic of Cyprus...They held positions of power and took the oath of office which was to upheld the independence and sovereignty of Cyprus,but they were working from the inside to make Cyprus a province of Greece...In any other democratic state they would've been tried for treason and sentenced to life in prison if not to death...The only thing that saved them was that they held all the power and they could do whatever they wanted,so they felt....But this will cut no ice with you I know...you will say the agreement was forced on us etc etc...

Of course the agreement was forced on us. Or maybe you think that we loved those "agreements" in 1960 and the next day we changed our mind. No mate, we never liked them. They were not mate by us. They were by foreigners and they were forced on us. Simple fact.

If you can only see the positive side of the EOKA, and the demand for Enosis, and the breaking up of the Republic and withdrawal of the TCs from power ,and refuse to acknowledge their fight for survival in their enclaves during 1963-74,and put the entire blame on them for "walking out",there is nothing else I can tell you...You are as blind as a bat,and as unmovable as a brick wall...

Again, I will repeat: During the conflict both sides suffered. How did you imagine it? An armed conflict were no one suffers, or only the GCs suffer? Of course such conflict doesn't exist. So how could we avoid the conflict? There was one very easy way:

Long before any conflict started, long before any EOKA or TMT or anything else, our plight for a democratic and peaceful referendum so that the Cypriot people could peacefully and democratically decide their own destiny. No conflicts, no suffering.

Do you know any other way that we could have avoided the conflict? How about: The GCs to write off their human rights, to write off their self-determination rights, and accept to continue to be the nice slaves who never revolt. Then the TC minority will continue to have Ottoman style privileges on our expense in the 21st century, and everything would be great. Right Bir? I hope you will agree with me that this could not be the case.

The same holds true today. How can we end the conflict? By finally doing the right thing: allowing democracy and self-determination to the Cypriot people.

So don't blame the Ottomans. You are just like them. You never changed. 1571, 1821, 1958, 1974, 2009 .... you always deny to the Cypriot people our rights. All you had to do is to accept democracy and human rights for all Cypriots, but you have never done it.

[lovernomore]

Yours is a voice of sanity,dear miltiades...
I have no intension of continuing this discussion with GR! and
Piratis...We will just have to agree that we see things totally differently...
They want me to sympathise and empathise with what happened to the GCs 450 years ago,and all through till 1878, when I was not even a speck of dust flying in my ancestors' universe....But they refuse to sympathise and empathise with what happened to the TCs during 1963-74,which was in my living memory...During which my family lost eveything and had to become refugees and I had to go into exile.....Fine,great...They can carry on showing the finger and see where it will get us...

We will continue to be the voice of empathy,compassion and sanity....
There is too much at stake...We cannot let blame-assigners and war -mongers run riot...

Dont let lost souls like Piratis get to you yegen. His only function here is to play his own trumpet. I am too polite to tell him where to stick it.

The sad thing is,Deniz,I know that Piratis is a decent,intelligent person...
To be this one-sided,this blind about our common history,they must've done a really good propaganda job on him when young...Like they have done a really good propaganda job on certain TCs in this forum who can only see their own side of the story...I have written hundreds and hundreds of posts in the past showing empathy and compassion for the GCs....I said I understood their demand for Enosis given the circumstances...He has not once reciprocated...He has not once said "yes ,I agree this was a very thoughtless and insensitive act which has caused great heartache for the TCs"...Empathy and compassion need to be reciprocated or it burns out....Nobody in their right mind can think that this entire mess is the fault of one side only...Yet there are many people here,apparently intelligent and thoughtful, who refuse out of hand to see their role in the bloody conflict....I am at a loss to explain it...
Do you have any idea why ????

Bir, if what I was saying was one sided and propaganda then you would have arguments to refute the facts that I give. So where are your arguments?

I have many times showed empathy and acknowledged your suffering. I never denied that you suffered as well and that you also had casualties during the conflict. In fact the President of Cyprus has done the same in the most official way, while your side not only it did not reciprocate, but they continue celebrating their crimes against us!

So we don't disagree on the fact that both sides suffered during the conflict. I know you recognize our suffering during the conflict, and be sure that I recognize your suffering as well and I am extremely sorry that innocent people suffered.

Where we disagree, and this is a matter of historical facts and not empathy, is why the conflict started.

You claim that this mess can not be the fault of one side only. It can, when one side is a foreign empire trying to impose its rule and serve its interests, and the other side is the oppressed native people seeking their freedom and self-determination. It happened not only in Cyprus, but in just about every place that colonialists have been.

EOKA was formed to fight for the freedom of Cyprus from colonial rule so the Cypriot people could gain their self-determination so they themselves could decide the destiny of their own island. And as I have shown many times, union with Greece would have been a legitimate option if this is what the Cypriot people democratically chose.

EOKA was formed to fight against the colonialists, not against the TCs. It is only after TCs choose to attack GCs in 1958 that EOKA was forced to retaliate.

And here lies our disagreement Bir. You want me to denounce our self-determination rights, and the organization we formed to fight against our oppressors, just because those oppressors armed you and gave you incentives in order to turn you against us and start the inter-communal conflict! Sorry Bir, but I will not denounce our self-determination rights, neither I will denounce our right to fight with all means possible against foreign invaders.

While during the conflict that followed crimes were committed against innocent people from both sides, the why and how that conflict started lies solely on the colonialists who denied to the Cypriot people their self-determination and armed the TC minority and gave to them incentives to fight against us.

The way the conflict could have been avoided was not by expecting the Cypriot people to sacrifice their self-termination and human rights, but by allowing the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically chose the destiny of their own island with a referendum, something which we have been asking for many many years and was always refused to us.

Piratis,
The frustrating thing about you is that you have already made up your mind..And it is closed to all arguments or logic....Essentially you are saying that because the Ottoman's invaded Cyprus back in 1571 we have to look no further....Everything that happened during the 40s and 50s and 60s was inevitable and it was entirely the fault of the TCs because their ancestors invaded all those years ago...

Where did I say such thing?? Are you for real?
On the contrary I said about a 100 times, that the GCs forgave the TCs for all that oppression and we lived peacefully with each other until you decided to attack us again in 1958.

What happened in the 50s and 60s was the fault of the Colonialists and those who cooperated with them (=TCs) to deny to the Cypriot people their rights. I am talking about their actions in that time, not before. Get it now?

There is nothing I can say that will change anything...You see Enosis as your right to self determination

It is.

...But you will not admit that it put the fear of death into the TCs and left them open to manipulation....You did not live through or do not remember the events of the 50s and 60s....I did...I can tell you that the fear of EOKA was very real and very big amongst the TCs...

Why the Turks that live in Rhodes who united with Greece in 1947 did not have "the fear of death"? If you had such fear this was not put by our legitimate right for self-determination and union with Greece, but by those who put such fears in your minds, i.e. Britain and Turkey. So how is it our fault that you believed the British and the Turks and allowed youselves to be manipulated by them?

And you are wrong about the killings starting in 1958...EOKA had began killing TC policemen and the auxillaries as early as 1956

Those TCs were volunteers of the British army and police and their job was to kill every Cypriot freedom fighter.
The inter-communal conflict was indeed started by the TCs in 1958 when they attacked and started to kill innocent unarmed people.

Here are British made videos describing both events:

....The trouble with you is,you have organised eveything very neatly in your mind...

I think it is time for you to do the same.

And you have justified everything bad that was caused by EOKA and the demand for Enosis...You cannot see that your freedom fighters were our terrorists and vice versa...They were terrorist becuase they terrorised us,and some of us still have anxiety attacks today as a result of what we went through as a child in Cyprus

No mate. Go and read again my post. I never denied that during the conflict you suffered and you had casulties. That is how conflicts are.

What I am saying here is that you started the conflict which both communities suffered.

....Telling me that it was the fault of the Ottomans for invading Cyprus is not going to make me feel any better

I will write it again: It was your fault for collaborating with the British and attacking us, starting the inter-communal conflict.

...Stop hiding behind intellectual arguments like self-determination and human rights and democracy European style

So that is all human rights and democracy are for you? We are very different.

....People who are traumatised want to see their pain and suffering acknowledged first

Their pain and suffering is acknowledge. They started a war against us and we both suffered. Satisfied? Or you want us to be blamed for the conflict which you started?

...Then they expect some sort of appology or expression of regret or at least some understanding of their plight...

Where is your apology for collaborating with the British and later with Turkey and denying to the Cypriot people their right for self-determination?
You want us to apologize for causing to you suffering in the war which you started against us, but you don't want to acknowledge that it is you who started the conflict. You want to blame everything on us.

Then they want to make sure that what they went through in the past will not revisit them in the future...Telling them it was the fault of the Ottomans for invading in the fisrst place is so callous and unthinking...

No mate. It is their fault for collaborating with the British and denying to the Cypriot people their right for self-determination. If they want to make sure that such things will not happen again they they should accept democracy and human rights for all Cypriots without racist descriminations.

You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge that Makarios and all his GC cronies were committing an act of treachery against the Republic of Cyprus...They held positions of power and took the oath of office which was to upheld the independence and sovereignty of Cyprus,but they were working from the inside to make Cyprus a province of Greece...In any other democratic state they would've been tried for treason and sentenced to life in prison if not to death...The only thing that saved them was that they held all the power and they could do whatever they wanted,so they felt....But this will cut no ice with you I know...you will say the agreement was forced on us etc etc...

Of course the agreement was forced on us. Or maybe you think that we loved those "agreements" in 1960 and the next day we changed our mind. No mate, we never liked them. They were not mate by us. They were by foreigners and they were forced on us. Simple fact.

If you can only see the positive side of the EOKA, and the demand for Enosis, and the breaking up of the Republic and withdrawal of the TCs from power ,and refuse to acknowledge their fight for survival in their enclaves during 1963-74,and put the entire blame on them for "walking out",there is nothing else I can tell you...You are as blind as a bat,and as unmovable as a brick wall...

Again, I will repeat: During the conflict both sides suffered. How did you imagine it? An armed conflict were no one suffers, or only the GCs suffer? Of course such conflict doesn't exist. So how could we avoid the conflict? There was one very easy way:

Long before any conflict started, long before any EOKA or TMT or anything else, our plight for a democratic and peaceful referendum so that the Cypriot people could peacefully and democratically decide their own destiny. No conflicts, no suffering.

Do you know any other way that we could have avoided the conflict? How about: The GCs to write off their human rights, to write off their self-determination rights, and accept to continue to be the nice slaves who never revolt. Then the TC minority will continue to have Ottoman style privileges on our expense in the 21st century, and everything would be great. Right Bir? I hope you will agree with me that this could not be the case.

The same holds true today. How can we end the conflict? By finally doing the right thing: allowing democracy and self-determination to the Cypriot people.

So don't blame the Ottomans. You are just like them. You never changed. 1571, 1821, 1958, 1974, 2009 .... you always deny to the Cypriot people our rights. All you had to do is to accept democracy and human rights for all Cypriots, but you have never done it.

Iam begining to belevie this piratis doe not exist.it is not human. It is a very clever computer program that respons automaticly to all the postes from Tcs. Maye sombody can send him a very bad virus and shut him up for ever.

[Get Real!]

Iam begining to belevie this piratis doe not exist.it is not human. It is a very clever computer program that respons automaticly to all the postes from Tcs. Maye sombody can send him a very bad virus and shut him up for ever.

Get all 24 volumes of Piratis’ yarns titled “Mein Cyprus Kampf”, a set of 6 double CDs presented in a beautiful leather case for just $99.99 + VAT!

But hurry!!! There are limited stocks!

Don't delay, get it NOW!

[denizaksulu]

Iam begining to belevie this piratis doe not exist.it is not human. It is a very clever computer program that respons automaticly to all the postes from Tcs. Maye sombody can send him a very bad virus and shut him up for ever.

Get all 24 volumes of Piratis’ yarns titled “Mein Cyprus Kampf”, a set of 6 double CDs presented in a beautiful leather case for just $99.99 + VAT!

But hurry!!! There are limited stocks!

Don't delay, get it NOW!

I bet you are on a commission.

[Kikapu]

Iam begining to belevie this piratis doe not exist.it is not human. It is a very clever computer program that respons automaticly to all the postes from Tcs. Maye sombody can send him a very bad virus and shut him up for ever.

Get all 24 volumes of Piratis’ yarns titled “Mein Cyprus Kampf”, a set of 6 double CDs presented in a beautiful leather case for just $99.99 + VAT!

But hurry!!! There are limited stocks!

Don't delay, get it NOW!

I was wondering what kind of virus loverboy has that would shut Piratis up.!

[Get Real!]

Iam begining to belevie this piratis doe not exist.it is not human. It is a very clever computer program that respons automaticly to all the postes from Tcs. Maye sombody can send him a very bad virus and shut him up for ever.

Get all 24 volumes of Piratis’ yarns titled “Mein Cyprus Kampf”, a set of 6 double CDs presented in a beautiful leather case for just $99.99 + VAT!

But hurry!!! There are limited stocks!

Don't delay, get it NOW!

I was wondering what kind of virus loverboy has that would shut Piratis up.!

The love bug?