Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

[Piratis]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

I never based any argument around genetics.

What you have no right for are the homes, land and property of other Cypriots. If there is one plonker here that is you.

[zan]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

I never based any argument around genetics.

What you have no right for are the homes, land and property of other Cypriots. If there is one plonker here that is you.

Your whole argument is based on Ottomans landing on your island and taking away your rights.....Now you say that we are the same and genetics have got nothing to do with it....If you think that the two can be separated then you need a rethink....

[Piratis]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

I never based any argument around genetics.

What you have no right for are the homes, land and property of other Cypriots. If there is one plonker here that is you.

Your whole argument is based on Ottomans landing on your island and taking away your rights.....Now you say that we are the same and genetics have got nothing to do with it....If you think that the two can be separated then you need a rethink....

Zan, genetically all people are almost the same, especially people from the same region. The Turks, even the ones in Turkey, have very little to do with the original Turks who came from Far East. The fact that genetically we are very similar doesn't change the fact that in many other respects (language, religion etc) we are very different, and that we have been invaded by Muslims (since Bir prefers this term) and oppressed by them.

Furthermore that is not my "whole argument". What happened during the Ottoman times would be absolutely irrelevant if in 1958 you didn't decide that you are a separate "nation" and that you can not accept the democratic choice of the Cypriot people as a whole, and you choose to collaborate with foreigners and attack us instead.

Separation and division was/is your choice, not ours.

[BirKibrisli]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

I agree with your previous post,Piratis...We will agree to disagree,there is nothing more to say..The people who invaded Cyprus in 1571 were the Ottomans...That is a historical fact,and no amount of sarcasm will change that fact...In more recent and more enlightened times people have been given the right to describe themselves in any way they want...If in Greece they want to be called Turks today and not Muslims,that should be their human right,don't you think???Why call them Muslims forcibly??? Personally I prefer to be called a Cypriot...(And if people want further clarification I say I am of Turkish ethnic background...) Why do you insist on calling me Turkish??? If you or other GCs want to be called Greeks,I have no problem with that...it is your right...My point is simply that those who chose to call themselves Greek (or Turkish!) are repeating the same mistake as our parents and grand parents made back in the 50s...And two mistakes will certainly not help correct the present situation...It will make it worse...

[zan]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

I never based any argument around genetics.

What you have no right for are the homes, land and property of other Cypriots. If there is one plonker here that is you.

Your whole argument is based on Ottomans landing on your island and taking away your rights.....Now you say that we are the same and genetics have got nothing to do with it....If you think that the two can be separated then you need a rethink....

Zan, genetically all people are almost the same, especially people from the same region. The Turks, even the ones in Turkey, have very little to do with the original Turks who came from Far East. The fact that genetically we are very similar doesn't change the fact that in many other respects (language, religion etc) we are very different, and that we have been invaded by Muslims (since Bir prefers this term) and oppressed by them.

Furthermore that is not my "whole argument". What happened during the Ottoman times would be absolutely irrelevant if in 1958 you didn't decide that you are a separate "nation" and that you can not accept the democratic choice of the Cypriot people as a whole, and you choose to collaborate with foreigners and attack us instead.

Separation and division was/is your choice, not ours.

But still you use an irrelevance to hide your part.....

[BirKibrisli]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

I never based any argument around genetics.

What you have no right for are the homes, land and property of other Cypriots. If there is one plonker here that is you.

Your whole argument is based on Ottomans landing on your island and taking away your rights.....Now you say that we are the same and genetics have got nothing to do with it....If you think that the two can be separated then you need a rethink....

Zan, genetically all people are almost the same, especially people from the same region. The Turks, even the ones in Turkey, have very little to do with the original Turks who came from Far East. The fact that genetically we are very similar doesn't change the fact that in many other respects (language, religion etc) we are very different, and that we have been invaded by Muslims (since Bir prefers this term) and oppressed by them.

Furthermore that is not my "whole argument". What happened during the Ottoman times would be absolutely irrelevant if in 1958 you didn't decide that you are a separate "nation" and that you can not accept the democratic choice of the Cypriot people as a whole, and you choose to collaborate with foreigners and attack us instead.

Separation and division was/is your choice, not ours.

I have never said Cyprus was invaded by Muslims...I repeatedly said it was the Ottomans...And back in 1571 the Turks were an oppressed minority largely occupied with agriculture...The Turks did not become prominent in the Empire till early 1900s when some progressive university students and military cadets formed the Committe of Union and Progress with the aim of reforming the administration of the Ottoman Empire...(1906)...This led to the Young Turks movement,a revolutionary group whose aim was to establish a parliamentary sytem under a Constitutional Monarch...Which in turn led to Kemal Ataturk's reforms...

The Cypriots of Islamic background was not refered to as Turkish till the early 1920s...

[Piratis]

In more recent and more enlightened times people have been given the right to describe themselves in any way they want...If in Greece they want to be called Turks today and not Muslims,that should be their human right,don't you think???Why call them Muslims forcibly???

Probably the reason is that Greece is afraid that what happened in Cyprus could happen to them. One moment they are a "Muslim minority", the next they are a "Turkish minority", then they don't want to be a minority, they want to be partners with 50% power, trouble starts, Turkey invades Greece to "save her Turkish brothers", takes half of it, and then blames the Greeks for being Greek as the reason why all this happened.

But I agree with you that Greece should recognize those people as Turkish if that is how they want to be called.

Why do you insist on calling me Turkish??? If you or other GCs want to be called Greeks,I have no problem with that...it is your right...My point is simply that those who chose to call themselves Greek (or Turkish!) are repeating the same mistake as our parents and grand parents made back in the 50s...And two mistakes will certainly not help correct the present situation...It will make it worse...

Bir, I already explained it to you, but I will rephrase it: For me labels are not important, certainly not in the way that democracy or human rights are. If your dream could be feasible then I would follow you in the "Just Cypriot" democratic nation of no Turks or Greeks. OK?

What I am saying here, and please pay attention, is that the majority of TCs unlike you, want this separation because with this separation they can have a lot more (power/land) than they would have otherwise. So by giving up our Greenness we would gain nothing, and at the same time we would alienate our only close ally and make it easier for Turkey to pass her distorted history.

[Piratis]

So what you are saying is that TCs are so different from GCs, and basically incompatible with us? Why did Turks came to Cyprus then? Cyprus was already inhabited by a majority of Greek Cypriots when the Turks came.

Piratis...You are now distorting history...Turks never came to Cyprus...
The Ottomans came to Cyprus...They did not call themselves Turks..In fact the Turks were one of the oppressed minorities in the Ottoman empire for a long time...The people who ended up being called Turkish Cypriots have very little resemblance to the Turkic tribes which started to invade Anatolia around 900AD...Just look at us for God' sake...I challenge you to pick me out in a crowd of GCs as the TC....Especially if I shaved my moustache off... Biologically or genetically there is no difference between us....We are the same people....Our differences are in our heads...That simple and that complex....

We can never satisfy you Bir. In Greece they call them Muslims, they don't like it, they say they are Turks. I respect how you want to be called, and I call you Turkish. Again you don't like it!

I agree with you that biologically or genetically there is no difference between us. Genetics and biology was never the problem.

Your whole argument is based around genetics. You saying that we have no right to a part of our own country... Itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttts plonker time!!!!

I never based any argument around genetics.

What you have no right for are the homes, land and property of other Cypriots. If there is one plonker here that is you.

Your whole argument is based on Ottomans landing on your island and taking away your rights.....Now you say that we are the same and genetics have got nothing to do with it....If you think that the two can be separated then you need a rethink....

Zan, genetically all people are almost the same, especially people from the same region. The Turks, even the ones in Turkey, have very little to do with the original Turks who came from Far East. The fact that genetically we are very similar doesn't change the fact that in many other respects (language, religion etc) we are very different, and that we have been invaded by Muslims (since Bir prefers this term) and oppressed by them.

Furthermore that is not my "whole argument". What happened during the Ottoman times would be absolutely irrelevant if in 1958 you didn't decide that you are a separate "nation" and that you can not accept the democratic choice of the Cypriot people as a whole, and you choose to collaborate with foreigners and attack us instead.

Separation and division was/is your choice, not ours.

I have never said Cyprus was invaded by Muslims...I repeatedly said it was the Ottomans...And back in 1571 the Turks were an oppressed minority largely occupied with agriculture...The Turks did not become prominent in the Empire till early 1900s when some progressive university students and military cadets formed the Committe of Union and Progress with the aim of reforming the administration of the Ottoman Empire...(1906)...This led to the Young Turks movement,a revolutionary group whose aim was to establish a parliamentary sytem under a Constitutional Monarch...Which in turn led to Kemal Ataturk's reforms...

The Cypriots of Islamic background was not refered to as Turkish till the early 1920s...

The Ottomans were officially Muslims and promoted Islam. After they invaded and occupied Cyprus they divided Cyprus into Muslims with more rights and Christians will less rights.

The point is that the Christians/Greek Cypriots were the ones who have been screwed the most back then, while the Muslim/Turkish Cypriots had more rights. Similarly, in 1958 the TCs collaborated with foreigners seeking again to have more rights than GCs. And today they insist on the same thing: For Cypriots to be divided in an Aparthait way so they will have more rights than every other Cypriot.

The labels (Ottoman/Muslim/Turk, Christian/Greek) might change, but the essence remains the same: Some foreigner has the control of our land, some minority gets more rights than the rest, and the Cypriot people are denied their freedom and self-determination.

[Viewpoint]

Excellent debate Bir and Piratis I have to thank you both for proving that we cannot live together as the chasm of difference is to wide to bridge. The few utopian thinkers like Bir and Miltiades as not enough to unite this island and people will gradually realize this fact moving more towards agreed division.