Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

If I say that France is European does this mean:

a) That France can not be French (because it is European)

b) That French people of African or Asian decent can not consider France as their own country since France is European and they are not.

c) That the French people will care as much for Paris as they care for Moscow (another European city)

d) None of the Above. France can be European without any of the above to be true.

I say that the correct answer is (d). The same for Cyprus. Cyprus is Greek (and Cypriot and European) because most of the population is Greek (there are proportionally more Greeks in Cyprus than Turks in Turkey) and the history, culture and religion of this island has been overwhelmingly Greek for several 1000s years (much more than Asia Minor has been Turkish).

This doesn't mean that Cyprus is not Cypriot above all else, nor it means that Cyprus can not have citizens which are not of the Greek ethnicity.

Now you can ignore the facts if you like, and have your own beliefs, but you can't force me to change my opinion which is based on solid facts.

[zan]

If I say that France is European does this mean:

a) That France can not be French (because it is European)

b) That French people of African or Asian decent can not consider France as their own country since France is European and they are not.

c) That the French people will care as much for Paris as they care for Moscow (another European city)

d) None of the Above. France can be European without any of the above to be true.

I say that the correct answer is (d). The same for Cyprus. Cyprus is Greek (and Cypriot and European) because most of the population is Greek (there are proportionally more Greeks in Cyprus than Turks in Turkey) and the history, culture and religion of this island has been overwhelmingly Greek for several 1000s years (much more than Asia Minor has been Turkish).

This doesn't mean that Cyprus is not Cypriot above all else, nor it means that Cyprus can not have citizens which are not of the Greek ethnicity.

Now you can ignore the facts if you like, and have your own beliefs, but you can't force me to change my opinion which is based on solid facts.

Well then the north of Cyprus is Turkish because the majority ther are Turkish.....Simple as you are being.....You have come back with even more for us to laugh at....Only Oracle can apreciate you mate.....Does her husband know

[BirKibrisli]

You are refusing to see my point,Piratis...
As long as you insist that Cyprus is Greek,the TCs will insist that half of it is Turkish...So Partition will be inevitable...You know this and you keep saying it...So I assume you are a partitionist...That is fine...But if you think Turkey will accept a 82-18 split you are mistaken...If Cyprus is to be officially divided between Greeks and Turks,the solution will be at least as good as the status quo for the Turks...Or better...Those of us who want to be Cypriots and live in a united Cyprus democratically will lose big time...I am being realistic...I have never suggested that you forget about your ethnic origins....It is impossible in any case...What I am suggesting is that you see the reality,the fact that insisting of rubbing your Greekness in the faces of the TCs will only make them climb further up Turkey's lap...And I am suggesting that you stop harping on about what happened in 1571...They were imperial times,where the mighty got what they wanted...There was no democracy those days...The British colonised Australia 200 years after the Ottomans Colonised Cyprus...They tried to totally wipe out the original inhabitants...And almost suceeded in just over 200 years...The Ottomans were in power for over 300 years...When they left the GCs were still very much in the majority,with all their cultural and religious institutions in tact...Yet you are blaming the TCs today for the excesses of the Ottoman rule...You are ruled by the bitterness and the desire fior revenge against the TCs today...I can read it in every post of yours...If you were truly interested in democracy,you would be using democratic means to achieve it...Not threatening to wipe out half of Cyprus "when the balance of power changes"...To achieve full democracy you need to convince the TCs that they will be safe under the new enlightened regime...To do that you should not keep showing them the red rug to a bull,your claim that Cyprus is Greek...You should accept your part in bringing about the present situation,and accept the fact that it was the Greek and Turkish nationalist virus which helped bring Cyprus to the brink of Partition...And you take action to show them you have learned the lessons of the past...That we should put our best foot forward,our Cypriotness,and try to unite our country around our shared identity,not around our differences...By insisting on highlighting our differences you essentially become a provocateur,making sure that the past hatreds will keep boiling along...You are making the same mistake our parents and grandparents did back in the 40s and 50s,that of riding roughshot over the fears and trepitations of the TCs...Instead of Enosis you are now using the plea for Democracy....No one will take you seriously until you show some regard for the historical and present plight of the TCs...That is my point...It shall remain my point till I see some signs that you are sincere and mature in your wish for fully democratic majority rule,and you are truly comitted to protecting minority and human rights of all....All I see now is a wolf in sheeps clothing using the democracy mantra to beat the TCs over the head...

[denizaksulu]

You are refusing to see my point,Piratis...
As long as you insist that Cyprus is Greek,the TCs will insist that half of it is Turkish...So Partition will be inevitable...You know this and you keep saying it...So I assume you are a partitionist...That is fine...But if you think Turkey will accept a 82-18 split you are mistaken...If Cyprus is to be officially divided between Greeks and Turks,the solution will be at least as good as the status quo for the Turks...Or better...Those of us who want to be Cypriots and live in a united Cyprus democratically will lose big time...I am being realistic...I have never suggested that you forget about your ethnic origins....It is impossible in any case...What I am suggesting is that you see the reality,the fact that insisting of rubbing your Greekness in the faces of the TCs will only make them climb further up Turkey's lap...And I am suggesting that you stop harping on about what happened in 1571...They were imperial times,where the mighty got what they wanted...There was no democracy those days...The British colonised Australia 200 years after the Ottomans Colonised Cyprus...They tried to totally wipe out the original inhabitants...And almost suceeded in just over 200 years...The Ottomans were in power for over 300 years...When they left the GCs were still very much in the majority,with all their cultural and religious institutions in tact...Yet you are blaming the TCs today for the excesses of the Ottoman rule...You are ruled by the bitterness and the desire fior revenge against the TCs today...I can read it in every post of yours...If you were truly interested in democracy,you would be using democratic means to achieve it...Not threatening to wipe out half of Cyprus "when the balance of power changes"...To achieve full democracy you need to convince the TCs that they will be safe under the new enlightened regime...To do that you should not keep showing them the red rug to a bull,your claim that Cyprus is Greek...You should accept your part in bringing about the present situation,and accept the fact that it was the Greek and Turkish nationalist virus which helped bring Cyprus to the brink of Partition...And you take action to show them you have learned the lessons of the past...That we should put our best foot forward,our Cypriotness,and try to unite our country around our shared identity,not around our differences...By insisting on highlighting our differences you essentially become a provocateur,making sure that the past hatreds will keep boiling along...You are making the same mistake our parents and grandparents did back in the 40s and 50s,that of riding roughshot over the fears and trepitations of the TCs...Instead of Enosis you are now using the plea for Democracy....No one will take you seriously until you show some regard for the historical and present plight of the TCs...That is my point...It shall remain my point till I see some signs that you are sincere and mature in your wish for fully democratic majority rule,and you are truly comitted to protecting minority and human rights of all....All I see now is a wolf in sheeps clothing using the democracy mantra to beat the TCs over the head...

You have a long wait Yegen. Vurdum duymaz, ne-idugubelirsiz herifin biri. No'lacak.

"Talk is cheap - that is what Piratis is good at.

[halil]

You are refusing to see my point,Piratis...
As long as you insist that Cyprus is Greek,the TCs will insist that half of it is Turkish...So Partition will be inevitable...You know this and you keep saying it...So I assume you are a partitionist...That is fine...But if you think Turkey will accept a 82-18 split you are mistaken...If Cyprus is to be officially divided between Greeks and Turks,the solution will be at least as good as the status quo for the Turks...Or better...Those of us who want to be Cypriots and live in a united Cyprus democratically will lose big time...I am being realistic...I have never suggested that you forget about your ethnic origins....It is impossible in any case...What I am suggesting is that you see the reality,the fact that insisting of rubbing your Greekness in the faces of the TCs will only make them climb further up Turkey's lap...And I am suggesting that you stop harping on about what happened in 1571...They were imperial times,where the mighty got what they wanted...There was no democracy those days...The British colonised Australia 200 years after the Ottomans Colonised Cyprus...They tried to totally wipe out the original inhabitants...And almost suceeded in just over 200 years...The Ottomans were in power for over 300 years...When they left the GCs were still very much in the majority,with all their cultural and religious institutions in tact...Yet you are blaming the TCs today for the excesses of the Ottoman rule...You are ruled by the bitterness and the desire fior revenge against the TCs today...I can read it in every post of yours...If you were truly interested in democracy,you would be using democratic means to achieve it...Not threatening to wipe out half of Cyprus "when the balance of power changes"...To achieve full democracy you need to convince the TCs that they will be safe under the new enlightened regime...To do that you should not keep showing them the red rug to a bull,your claim that Cyprus is Greek...You should accept your part in bringing about the present situation,and accept the fact that it was the Greek and Turkish nationalist virus which helped bring Cyprus to the brink of Partition...And you take action to show them you have learned the lessons of the past...That we should put our best foot forward,our Cypriotness,and try to unite our country around our shared identity,not around our differences...By insisting on highlighting our differences you essentially become a provocateur,making sure that the past hatreds will keep boiling along...You are making the same mistake our parents and grandparents did back in the 40s and 50s,that of riding roughshot over the fears and trepitations of the TCs...Instead of Enosis you are now using the plea for Democracy....No one will take you seriously until you show some regard for the historical and present plight of the TCs...That is my point...It shall remain my point till I see some signs that you are sincere and mature in your wish for fully democratic majority rule,and you are truly comitted to protecting minority and human rights of all....All I see now is a wolf in sheeps clothing using the democracy mantra to beat the TCs over the head...

You have a long wait Yegen. Vurdum duymaz, ne-idugubelirsiz herifin biri. No'lacak.

"Talk is cheap - that is what Piratis is good at.

because of them Deniz and Birkibrisli ..... we put our head between our hands and thinking not twice ..... thinkhing thousand times now ...... never again we want to live those dark days again ...... Yoğurdu Üfleyerek yeriz !!!! Even if he says the things you mationed at above still we might thing ..... how i will be sure wolf is not in the sheep skin ?????

[Viewpoint]

You are refusing to see my point,Piratis...
As long as you insist that Cyprus is Greek,the TCs will insist that half of it is Turkish...So Partition will be inevitable...You know this and you keep saying it...So I assume you are a partitionist...That is fine...But if you think Turkey will accept a 82-18 split you are mistaken...If Cyprus is to be officially divided between Greeks and Turks,the solution will be at least as good as the status quo for the Turks...Or better...Those of us who want to be Cypriots and live in a united Cyprus democratically will lose big time...I am being realistic...I have never suggested that you forget about your ethnic origins....It is impossible in any case...What I am suggesting is that you see the reality,the fact that insisting of rubbing your Greekness in the faces of the TCs will only make them climb further up Turkey's lap...And I am suggesting that you stop harping on about what happened in 1571...They were imperial times,where the mighty got what they wanted...There was no democracy those days...The British colonised Australia 200 years after the Ottomans Colonised Cyprus...They tried to totally wipe out the original inhabitants...And almost suceeded in just over 200 years...The Ottomans were in power for over 300 years...When they left the GCs were still very much in the majority,with all their cultural and religious institutions in tact...Yet you are blaming the TCs today for the excesses of the Ottoman rule...You are ruled by the bitterness and the desire fior revenge against the TCs today...I can read it in every post of yours...If you were truly interested in democracy,you would be using democratic means to achieve it...Not threatening to wipe out half of Cyprus "when the balance of power changes"...To achieve full democracy you need to convince the TCs that they will be safe under the new enlightened regime...To do that you should not keep showing them the red rug to a bull,your claim that Cyprus is Greek...You should accept your part in bringing about the present situation,and accept the fact that it was the Greek and Turkish nationalist virus which helped bring Cyprus to the brink of Partition...And you take action to show them you have learned the lessons of the past...That we should put our best foot forward,our Cypriotness,and try to unite our country around our shared identity,not around our differences...By insisting on highlighting our differences you essentially become a provocateur,making sure that the past hatreds will keep boiling along...You are making the same mistake our parents and grandparents did back in the 40s and 50s,that of riding roughshot over the fears and trepitations of the TCs...Instead of Enosis you are now using the plea for Democracy....No one will take you seriously until you show some regard for the historical and present plight of the TCs...That is my point...It shall remain my point till I see some signs that you are sincere and mature in your wish for fully democratic majority rule,and you are truly comitted to protecting minority and human rights of all....All I see now is a wolf in sheeps clothing using the democracy mantra to beat the TCs over the head...

This is an excellent post well done Bir, well put but again it will fall on deaf ears.

[souroul]

lol this guy is unreal

wait so, does that logic make the kurds majority in turkey? oh wait the turks cant invade their own country.

[doesntmatter]

If I say that France is European does this mean:

a) That France can not be French (because it is European)

b) That French people of African or Asian decent can not consider France as their own country since France is European and they are not.

c) That the French people will care as much for Paris as they care for Moscow (another European city)

d) None of the Above. France can be European without any of the above to be true.

I say that the correct answer is (d). The same for Cyprus. Cyprus is Greek (and Cypriot and European) because most of the population is Greek (there are proportionally more Greeks in Cyprus than Turks in Turkey) and the history, culture and religion of this island has been overwhelmingly Greek for several 1000s years (much more than Asia Minor has been Turkish).

This doesn't mean that Cyprus is not Cypriot above all else, nor it means that Cyprus can not have citizens which are not of the Greek ethnicity.

Now you can ignore the facts if you like, and have your own beliefs, but you can't force me to change my opinion which is based on solid facts.

There's only one answer to so much stupidity.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LSJkMBMEwPk

[repulsewarrior]

Because of "Greeks" and "Turks", Cypriots live as a minority on this island.

...we have identities as Persons as well as Individuals.

And as Cypriots we are striving to allow for this in our Governance; a People who desire a Bicommunal relationship: United serving one Principal in its service as Communities.

[Piratis]

You are refusing to see my point,Piratis...
As long as you insist that Cyprus is Greek,the TCs will insist that half of it is Turkish...So Partition will be inevitable...You know this and you keep saying it...So I assume you are a partitionist...That is fine...But if you think Turkey will accept a 82-18 split you are mistaken...If Cyprus is to be officially divided between Greeks and Turks,the solution will be at least as good as the status quo for the Turks...Or better...Those of us who want to be Cypriots and live in a united Cyprus democratically will lose big time...I am being realistic...I have never suggested that you forget about your ethnic origins....It is impossible in any case...What I am suggesting is that you see the reality,the fact that insisting of rubbing your Greekness in the faces of the TCs will only make them climb further up Turkey's lap...And I am suggesting that you stop harping on about what happened in 1571...They were imperial times,where the mighty got what they wanted...There was no democracy those days...The British colonised Australia 200 years after the Ottomans Colonised Cyprus...They tried to totally wipe out the original inhabitants...And almost suceeded in just over 200 years...The Ottomans were in power for over 300 years...When they left the GCs were still very much in the majority,with all their cultural and religious institutions in tact...Yet you are blaming the TCs today for the excesses of the Ottoman rule...You are ruled by the bitterness and the desire fior revenge against the TCs today...I can read it in every post of yours...If you were truly interested in democracy,you would be using democratic means to achieve it...Not threatening to wipe out half of Cyprus "when the balance of power changes"...To achieve full democracy you need to convince the TCs that they will be safe under the new enlightened regime...To do that you should not keep showing them the red rug to a bull,your claim that Cyprus is Greek...You should accept your part in bringing about the present situation,and accept the fact that it was the Greek and Turkish nationalist virus which helped bring Cyprus to the brink of Partition...And you take action to show them you have learned the lessons of the past...That we should put our best foot forward,our Cypriotness,and try to unite our country around our shared identity,not around our differences...By insisting on highlighting our differences you essentially become a provocateur,making sure that the past hatreds will keep boiling along...You are making the same mistake our parents and grandparents did back in the 40s and 50s,that of riding roughshot over the fears and trepitations of the TCs...Instead of Enosis you are now using the plea for Democracy....No one will take you seriously until you show some regard for the historical and present plight of the TCs...That is my point...It shall remain my point till I see some signs that you are sincere and mature in your wish for fully democratic majority rule,and you are truly comitted to protecting minority and human rights of all....All I see now is a wolf in sheeps clothing using the democracy mantra to beat the TCs over the head...

No Bir, I get your point, and you are absolutely wrong. You also repeat things that I already gave clear answers to (e.g. Ottomans), aren't you reading my posts?

You waste your energy on an irrelevant issue.

So lets say that for the sake of argument we would agree that Cyprus is not Greek.

Wouldn't the Turkish speaking Muslim Cypriots still be a (linguistic/religious/ethnic) minority within a country with Greek speaking Christian Cypriots as the majority? They would. (unless you would also suggest to change the language and religion of everyone).

So go and read the initial post of VP again. According to him (and he is right) TCs do not want to live as a minority. It doesn't matter what you label the majority (Greeks, Greek Cypriots, Greek speaking Cypriots, Christians, non Turkish), it doesn't matter what you label Cyprus (Greek, European, not Turkish) the result is always the same: In a united democratic Cyprus TCs will be a minority and that is what VP and most TCs do not want, because they got used to have more than what belongs to them by collaborating with foreigners.

The TCs want partition (standard style, Annan style, etc) because that would give them a lot more land and a lot more power than what belongs to them. That is the main reason that most TCs want partition, which of course non of them would admit publicly, and unfortunately you seem to be too blind to see. (but as Kikapu said, this was privately admitted to him by his relatives, and anybody with a bit of sense can understand that this is the case with the majority of TCs)

So now lets go back to the "Cyprus is Greek" that bothered you so much. Tell me what would we gain if we accept your demand and say that Cyprus is not Greek?

The sympathy from you and a 1000 more TCs, 100 of which could then maybe accept a free and democratic Cyprus without privilages and land granded to TCs by foreigners? Thats about it, and that is practically zero.

On the other hand what we would lose would be very significant: We would alienate our closest ally, and Turkey would have achieved her objective of isolating Cyprus so it will be easier for them to manipulate us. As I said before this is why they didn't want us to join the EU either, "Cyprus is European" bothered them for the exact same reasons that "Cyprus is Greek" bothers them.

If I knew that it would make a positive difference if I changed my position on this issue, then I would. For me such labels are not important. But it is obvious that this will not make any difference for the vast majority of TCs (of which you are not part of) and it will make absolutely no difference to Turkey, which after all is the one who has the total control over the position of the Turkish side on the Cyprus issue.

So if you want to discuss the real issue of this thread, then maybe you should tell to VP what you told to me about the Aboriginals of Australia. Because VP seems to think that a "minority" is just the "Indians in the UK" and that somehow the 18% of TCs are not a minority and they actually deserve the powers and land granted to them by foreigners on the expense of every other Cypriot.

Finally you can think whatever you want about me. I am a true democrat, and I do not seek collective punishment for any group due to actions of the past, I only care about what each individual is doing during his life time, and during my lifetime I supported no crimes and no illegalities (apart from minor things like braking the speed limit).

When some are trying to use a tiny distorted fraction of the past in order to depict us as the "evils" who deserve to have their lands and their rights taken away, then I am sorry Bir, but I will continue to correct them and say the truth. But, unlike them, I will still support that each Cypriot should have the 100% of their human and democratic rights regardless of what some previous generations of his community did, and I am even willing to forgive those who today insist on commiting crimes and illegalities, as long as they recognize their mistake and change.

If however they do not change, and they insist on keeping our land under occupation and violate our human and democratic rights, then we have every right to fight against them and defeat them if we are given the chance, and nobody can deny to us our right to defend the sovereignty of our island from foreign invaders and those who collaborate with them.