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Do TCs want to live in a GC state as a minority?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:02 am

BirKibrisli wrote:
Piratis wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Piratis wrote:Most of them are. They even have the British flag as part of their own flag and they have the Queen of England as their own Queen. They simply choose to be separate from the UK because that would serve their own interests better. Did you see any non-English Australians staring a war demanding that the British flag being taken off the Australian flag, and the official language of Australia to stop being English? They all accept these facts, and all feel Australia as their own country with no problem.



Try telling Anglo-Celtic Australians that they are British or English and you will get a bloody nose in no time...Piratis,in 200 odd years ,the overwhelming majority of Australians from British background have evolved into a distinct nationality of Australians....They might still have the British flag in one corner of their own,and the Queen as head of state,but that is fast becoming an embarassment for the majority of Australians...The cunning Howard made sure the referandum to turn Australia into a Republic in 1999 failed,but the next one will definitely succeed as both the Labour PM Rudd and the Leader of the Opposition Turnbull are ardent republicans...We will probably wait till the Queen dies to respect the sensibilities of some older Austalians,but it is only a matter of time before we have a Republic with its own flag...We already have a distinct Australian national anthem...The fact that after thousands of years and nearly 400 years respectively the GCs and TCs cannot call themselves Cypriot above all else is totally bewildering...It shows some other insidious factor at work behind the collective consciousness of the majority of Cypriots...This is what we have to fight against...You insisting that Cyprus is a Greek island does nothing to advance our national interest, or the causes of peace and reconciliation...I am surprised you cannot see this simple point... :(


Bir, the Australians democratically choose that they want to be separate and how close or separate they are now or they will be in the future will always be their choice. As you said regarding the Queen as the Head of state the Australians had a referendum and they choose to keep her. Did the Australians that were the minority in that referendum started to attack and kill everybody else just because what they wanted didn't pass in the referendum? If they did such thing who would be blamed? The people who took a democratic decision, or the ones who didn't respect the democratic decision and started the attacks?

So why can't you accept the same thing for Cyprus? I am not saying that Cyprus should unite with Greece or that we should have a Greek national anthem or a Greek flag. All I am saying is: Let the Cypriot people to decide in democratic way what they want for their own island, just like Australians do. Why do you have to force your own will on the Cypriot people by colaborating with foreigners? Why can't you accept that the Cypriot people should be the ones who should democratically take the decisions for their own island?


You are ignoring the fact that histories of Australia and Cyprus are very different...And you seem to have reduced democracy to the rule of the majority by all means,including tyranny...Democracy is a very mature form of government...It needs a very educated,tolerant,consultative and compassionate people to make it work... Else it would be reduced to the oppression of a hated minority...You will have to agree that in the 50s Cypriots were not really interested in democracy...The majority were only intereseted in giving their country away to their "mothers" in one form or another...One could look at the demands for Enosis and Taksim as acts of treachery...There were a small minority in both communities which wanted independence to build their nation and their country as Cypriots...The forces of "democracy" wiped these people out by threats,intimidation and murder....How can you talk about democracy in such a climate...???? What we had back then is the opportunistic majority wanting to punish the opportunistic minority by bringing about their worse fears under the historical circumstances....It was about revenge for all that happened since 1571...Because the GCs essentially held the TCs responsible for all the pain and suffering they endured under the Ottomans...This is what you need to come to terms with,Piratis...The minute GCs decided they were Greeks and not Cypriots,was the minute they gave the right to the TCs to say they were Turks and not Cypriots...
And all the rest followed as we know it...You insisting now that the GCs are Greeks and Cyprus is a Greek island shows you have learned nothing from the bloody events since the 50s ....And it tells me ,as a TC who wants to be Cypriot above my ethnicity,that you are not interested in democracy even today,but to punish and destroy the TCs for the deeds of their ancestors going back to 1571...I cannot trust you today any more than my father and mother did back in the 50s....You can dress up your Hellenic nationalism as democracy for all you like....I will see through it...
Until you can admit that it was our Greekness and Turkishness which brought us here,and we need to give them the boot and embrace our Cypriotness together,geographically,historically and politically,I will not take your democracy plea very seriously....And you will find very few TCs would...Lets move forward from this Cyprus is Greek or Turkish shit,and you will find many Cypriots,myself included, who will fight along with you to achieve real democracy,real independence,real human rights,real rule of the law...Not before...


I am not the one who mentioned Australia as the most similar example, but even there, as I exhibited, people are free to democratically make their own choices even when those choices include things like having the flag of another country in their own flag, or have the Queen of another country as their own Queen. I don't see you crying "tyranny" about Australia because of their democratic choices. Why are you doing this for Cyprus?

If you want a similar example to the one of Cyprus, the most similar one is the one of Bulgaria. They also have a Turkish minority which is in fact older than the TC minority in Cyprus. Does the Turkish minority of Bulgaria get the undemocratic privileges that you demand on our expense?

We didn't become Greeks in the 50s. We have been Greeks for 1000s of years. So stop denying to us our ethnicity, like you are doing with the Kurds who you occupy their lands and call them "Mountain Turks".

Our demand for union with Greece didn't start in the 50s either, but right from the beginning of the Greek revolution in 1821. Read a bit of the history of Cyprus and then you will see that since then we always wanted to be free in a free Greek state along with all other Greeks, and not the slaves of some Ottoman or British empire. If you call "Hellenic nationalism" the desire of the Greek people (including the Cypriots) to overthrow their foreign rulers and create a free Greek state, then so be it.

We had no desire to "punish and destroy" the TCs. In fact after the Ottoman rule ended we lived in peace with TCs and our revolution was against the British colonialists, not against you. You are the ones who in 1958 decided to side with the colonialists and attacked us, so get your facts straight.

In Cyprus we also have a Latin minority, and if we believe the Turks, the Latins were even more brutal against us during their rule than the Ottomans. Did you see any "punish and destroy" against the Latins??

We never sought any collective punishments of others due to past events. What we always sought is freedom, democracy and our self-determination, and we always fought only those who choose to attack against us in order to deny to us the above rights. So don't make up stories against us trying to justify your actions.

Cyprus is what Cyprus is and Cypriots are what they are. I accept you for what you are, and you should accept us for what we are, especially if you consider that we have been what we are today for long long long time before any Turks appeared on this island. If you didn't like us for what we are then you shouldn't have come.

You can't violate our rights and keep our land hostage, threatening us that we should give up our ethnicity and the history of our island.

Yes, Cyprus is above all else Cypriot, and that is exactly why the Cypriots, and not some foreigners, should democratically decide where Cyprus should belong.

When we united with EU and we confirmed that Cyprus is European, did this make Cyprus any less Cypriot? Would you come and tell us that we should be "just Cypriot" and to "stop the Cyprus is European shit" and force Cyprus not to unite with EU just because that is what suited you and Turkey? I still remember how Turkey was threatening to invade Cyprus again if we united with EU! Fortunately this time they didn't manage to find some lame excuse to do so. And of course the reason that Turkey didn't want Cyprus to unite with either Greece or EU is not because Turkey have the super-special scientists who concluded that Cyprus is not Greek or European, but because they want Cyprus alone and weak so they can manipulate us easier.
Last edited by Piratis on Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:29 am

Nothing I say seems to penetrate your Greek nationalist armour,Piratis...
If you insist that Cyprus is a Greek island...the TCs will insist that Cyprus is half Turkish (or the might up the ante and start demanding all of Cyprus,as it was stolen from the Ottomans by stealth)...There will never be a solution or peace...The mighty will rule the roost...And you will have to wait for" the balance of power to change" to attack and liberate your country of birth,killing if necessary 20% of those who also call Cyprus home...All in the name of Greekness...Fine,have it your way...History will be the judge...Even if you one day manage to liberate Cyprus of all her TCs and the settlers,you will never get to live in peace...Because those TCs and settlers will lay in wait for you and strike back when the balance of power changes yet again...Enjoy the merry-go-round...All in the name of what??? Democracy???? Human rights??? Don't make me laugh... :( :(
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:32 am

Piratis wrote:
or have the Queen of another country as their own Queen.


Just a small point of order if I may:

The Queen of Australia is not a foreign Queen or a Queen of a foreign country. Australia is not a country ruled by another, but is a completely free and independent nation.

Ergo, Australia does not have a Queen from a "foreign country" but has its very own monarch - The Queen of Australia, which just so happens to be the same Queen of Canada, Queen of NZ and so forth etc etc.

And before I get labelled, I would also like to point out that I am not a Royalist.

Also, I have no time for people who actually live in Australia and piss in their own backyard. The Australian flag is the flag chosen to represent Australia.

Migrants who come to Australia have absolutely no right to disrespect the nation's flag just because they don't like the look of The Union Jack. I too am of ethnic background but accept the nation's flag no matter what.

The only way it can be changed is by referendum where a majority is achieved in each state.

BIR wrote
the overwhelming majority of Australians from British background have evolved into a distinct nationality of Australians....


This is true. Australians have become their own nation.

But you have to be a complete idiot to not recognise that Australia has a typically British character and heritage.

You will find that the Anglo Saxons in Australia respect it. They do not reject their heritage, and they will not give you a bloody nose, unless you call them British, whilst they are watching an Ashes Cricket match. :lol:
Last edited by Paphitis on Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:47 am

BirKibrisli wrote:Nothing I say seems to penetrate your Greek nationalist armour,Piratis...
If you insist that Cyprus is a Greek island...the TCs will insist that Cyprus is half Turkish (or the might up the ante and start demanding all of Cyprus,as it was stolen from the Ottomans by stealth)...There will never be a solution or peace...The mighty will rule the roost...And you will have to wait for" the balance of power to change" to attack and liberate your country of birth,killing if necessary 20% of those who also call Cyprus home...All in the name of Greekness...Fine,have it your way...History will be the judge...Even if you one day manage to liberate Cyprus of all her TCs and the settlers,you will never get to live in peace...Because those TCs and settlers will lay in wait for you and strike back when the balance of power changes yet again...Enjoy the merry-go-round...All in the name of what??? Democracy???? Human rights??? Don't make me laugh... :( :(


What I insist is simple Bir: Let the Cypriots decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

You live in a country where the British have a mere 200 years of history and which has many people form many different ethnic backgrounds, and you don't have a problem that the Australian flag has the British flag in it, or that the Queen of England is the the head of State.

And for Cyprus which has 3500 years of Greek history, and where the 80% of the population is Greek, and you don't accept any association of Cyprus with anything Greek. Instead you are threatening us, that unless we give up our ethnicity and our history you will continue committing crimes against us.

Yes Bir, with your mentality there will not be peace. All you had to do for Cyprus is what you do for Australia. Accept to have a multi-ethnic united and democratic nation, where the human rights of all are respected, but the democratic decisions of the people as a whole are respected as well, even if you don't agree with all of them.

There are only 2 ways to take decisions:

1) Democratic way.
2) Force way.

You choose the second, and you are giving us no option than to try to counter the force you put against us.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:58 am

Migrants who come to Australia have absolutely no right to disrespect the nation's flag just because they don't like the look of The Union Jack. I too am of ethnic background but accept the nation's flag no matter what.


This is a good attitude. This is the attitude of most people of different ethnic background in all countries, including those in Cyprus - with the TCs as the sole exception.

I understand if somebody doesn't like a flag, or a national anthem or a democratic decision. But collaborating with foreigners in order to force on the people of that country your minority opinion amounts to treason.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:20 am

Piratis wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:Nothing I say seems to penetrate your Greek nationalist armour,Piratis...
If you insist that Cyprus is a Greek island...the TCs will insist that Cyprus is half Turkish (or the might up the ante and start demanding all of Cyprus,as it was stolen from the Ottomans by stealth)...There will never be a solution or peace...The mighty will rule the roost...And you will have to wait for" the balance of power to change" to attack and liberate your country of birth,killing if necessary 20% of those who also call Cyprus home...All in the name of Greekness...Fine,have it your way...History will be the judge...Even if you one day manage to liberate Cyprus of all her TCs and the settlers,you will never get to live in peace...Because those TCs and settlers will lay in wait for you and strike back when the balance of power changes yet again...Enjoy the merry-go-round...All in the name of what??? Democracy???? Human rights??? Don't make me laugh... :( :(


What I insist is simple Bir: Let the Cypriots decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

You live in a country where the British have a mere 200 years of history and which has many people form many different ethnic backgrounds, and you don't have a problem that the Australian flag has the British flag in it, or that the Queen of England is the the head of State.

And for Cyprus which has 3500 years of Greek history, and where the 80% of the population is Greek, and you don't accept any association of Cyprus with anything Greek. Instead you are threatening us, that unless we give up our ethnicity and our history you will continue committing crimes against us.

Yes Bir, with your mentality there will not be peace. All you had to do for Cyprus is what you do for Australia. Accept to have a multi-ethnic united and democratic nation, where the human rights of all are respected, but the democratic decisions of the people as a whole are respected as well, even if you don't agree with all of them.

There are only 2 ways to take decisions:

1) Democratic way.
2) Force way.

You choose the second, and you are giving us no option than to try to counter the force you put against us.


Yours is a twisted logic,Piratis...You can't have democracy by force...You can't say you stand for human rights while threatening to take the most basic of all human rights,the right to life,away from some of your compatriots...

And stop using Australia as a parallel example...The original inhabitants of this land might object....There was nothing democratic about how the British colonised Australia,and how they refused to accept till 1992 (yes,you read it right!) that this land was inhabited when they arrived...They treated the aboriginals as animals,and didn't give them the right to own property or vote till 1967....The plight of the aboriginal people is a disgrace on any civilised nation...Yet the aboriginal people do not insist that Australia is Aboriginal...And they have been here far longer (some 60,000 years) than the Greeks in Cyprus...They are realistic enough to want to turn the clock back...Their only true demand is to be respected as the original Australians,and be left in peace to run their lives according to their cultural norms...Yet , one of the most advanced democracies in the world cannot cope with this simple demand...Aboriginals remain an oppressed and downthrodden people ruled by white Australian Bureaucracy...Given our bloody history in Cyprus,the TCs have a lot to fear from your type of enforced democracy...Remember how the USA saved the Vietnamese people from communism by killing them on mass????? Well the TCs are obviously worried that you will bestow democracy on them by killing them if necessary... :) :)

Before you accuse my mentality of stopping peace in Cyprus have a good look at yours...You might be surprised to find out you are the real culprit... :wink:
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:49 am

And stop using Australia as a parallel example...The original inhabitants of this land might object....There was nothing democratic about how the British colonised Australia,and how they refused to accept till 1992 (yes,you read it right!) that this land was inhabited when they arrived...They treated the aboriginals as animals


Since we are using Australia as a parallel example to Cyprus...

The original inhabitants of Australia would more likely object to the TCs than they would the GCs. That is because there was nothing democratic with the way the TCs invaded in 1571, and even to this day refuse the indigenous inhabitants, the GCs, their right for self determination, freedom, democracy and equal human rights for all.

GCs and Aboriginal Australians are united against the same oppression..... 8)
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:11 am

ours is a twisted logic,Piratis...You can't have democracy by force


Of course you can. There are anarchists, fascists, Nazis etc everywhere. Those extremist minorities are forced to accept democracy and they are not allowed to impose their undemocratic systems.

You can't say you stand for human rights while threatening to take the most basic of all human rights,the right to life,away from some of your compatriots...


???? And where did I threaten them?? What I said is that I will fight for my rights only against those who want to take my rights away. It is your choice to collaborate with foreigners and try to violate our rights. If it was up to me every Cypriot citizen would get the 100% of his human and democratic rights, with no restrictions and derogations.

And stop using Australia as a parallel example...The original inhabitants of this land might object....There was nothing democratic about how the British colonised Australia,and how they refused to accept till 1992 (yes,you read it right!) that this land was inhabited when they arrived...They treated the aboriginals as animals,and didn't give them the right to own property or vote till 1967....The plight of the aboriginal people is a disgrace on any civilised nation


So that is the same with what the Turks did in Asia Minor and are now trying to do in occupied Cyprus. They call the land they occupy as "Turkish Cyprus" and they are trying to erase 1000s of years of history.

Yet the aboriginal people do not insist that Australia is Aboriginal...And they have been here far longer (some 60,000 years) than the Greeks in Cyprus...They are realistic enough to want to turn the clock back...Their only true demand is to be respected as the original Australians,and be left in peace to run their lives according to their cultural norms


Unfortunately for them they became a small minority and I 100% agree that they way this was done was barbaric. It is the same with Asia Minor. We do not claim that Asia Minor is Greek, because at a time long before the UN and the declaration of Human Rights, the Turks managed to annihilate most of the Greeks, Armenians and everybody else. Unfortunately the Turks want to continue with the same criminal ways in Cyprus in the 21st century!!

The Aboriginals recognize that they are a minority and as you said all they want is to be equal Australian citizens. The same with the Greeks of Asia Minor. So why don't the TC minority accepts this as well? What gives to the TC minority more rights in Cyprus than the Aboriginals have in Australia? Can you answer this question Bir? Are you maybe the chosen race of God and each one of you is equal to 5 of us?

A closer example to what TCs want is South Africa of Apartheid. The TCs are a minority formed in Cyprus during colonial rule, and they do not accept to be equal citizens along with the rest of the people of the country, who inhabited the territory long before the Turks arrived. Same in SA with Whites and Blacks.

Did you support the Apartheid Bir? The whites of SA would have a lot of lame excuses like yours to support it, since the blacks often reacted violently to the unfair treatment against them, and of course, according to your logic, it was the Blacks fault that they didn't just sit there and accept without reacting that some minority will take the decisions undemocratically.

Given our bloody history in Cyprus,the TCs have a lot to fear from your type of enforced democracy...Remember how the USA saved the Vietnamese people from communism by killing them on mass????? Well the TCs are obviously worried that you will bestow democracy on them by killing them if necessary


Bir I am sorry, but the examples that you give can only be associated with imperialistic and expansionistic powers like Turkey, who invade other countries and try to impose their rule by force (the Americans also has some minority of Vietnamese supporting their invasion, by the way), and not with small Cyprus who all it wants is freedom, democracy and self-determination.

You have never allowed a true, one person one vote democracy during the time we lived together. Neither during your 300+ year rule of Cyprus, nor after 1960. Such democracy was only formed in the free parts of Cyprus after 1974, and although Cyprus was a very young democracy with no experience at all, we still do a lot better in that respect than many others, including Turkey. So you coming to criticize how democratic we are is rather hypocritical.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:28 am

And Bir, let me make one point clear. When I say that "Cyprus is Greek" this is how I see it. I didn't ask from you to accept this fact if you don't want to, or such thing to be written in the constitution.

What I ask is to allow Cypriots to be what they have always been, and to live were they have always lived, without forceful destruction of our historical heritage, without name changes of our villages, and to accept the whole history of our island without erasing anything from it.

Beyond that, everybody can decide for himself how Greek or how Turkish Cyprus is, or if it is really irrelevant with anything Greek or Turkish.
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Postby miltiades » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:15 am

BIR WROTE:
"""""""Until you can admit that it was our Greekness and Turkishness which brought us here,and we need to give them the boot and embrace our Cypriotness together,geographically,historically and politically,I will not take your democracy plea very seriously....And you will find very few TCs would...Lets move forward from this Cyprus is Greek or Turkish shit,and you will find many Cypriots,myself included, who will fight along with you to achieve real democracy,real independence,real human rights,real rule of the law...Not before... """

In line with my own beliefs that the two foreign nations responsible for our present day predicament . Greece and Turkey . We can be G/Cs and T/Cs but above all the emphasis should be on our own true status , nationality , after all its hard for anyone to judge that my ancestors going back 2 thousand years , or those of Piratis , did come from Greece. Highly unlikely , Greek influenced undeniably so , but what exactly is it wrong with being a Cypriot , an independent Cypriot , just as a Briton who might be of Scottish , Irish , Spanish , Italian or Cypriot background.
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