Cyprus-Forum.com

[Byron]

Sorry!


The split is 70/30 as opposed to the 37% we hold now. The recognition of the TRNC would be the 30%. Compensation to all that have lost land at current market prices. Thats it really...The rest is up to the two separate countries........Don't really understand what you mean by no preconditions though.......Can it happen without them?

A 7% reduction in land to be given back to the GC's and compensation to be paid to those that lost their homes on both sides with recognition of the TRNC as a seperate state. Have I understood correctly ?

I think so!

So if this was accepted by the GC's we would have a done deal. Am I right ? If so what do other GC's think of this proposal ?

That about sums it up Byron.

Instead of discussion we get abuse.

I read the proposal made by Kifeas: he advocates a 97% / 3% split between the two communities. Zan is offering 70% / 30% ; I do not think we are making any progress at all here. The Turks want to keep what they have, the Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots want to restore the status quo but the Turks disagree while the world at large looks on bemused.

This is a problem that nobody wishes to solve !

What do you understand the status quo is Byron....

Pre 1974 !

Well! In 1960 we had our rights in government...By 1963, we didn't......The Greeks used every trick in the book to see to that. Can you be more specific on your date or did you not know about 1960 or 63???

I am not too sure where you are leading too. I said that the Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots wish to restore the Cyprus Republic to the position it was before the 1974 Turkish Invasion when the Cyprus Republic represented 100% of Cypriot territory. This may not necessarily be my view but how I perceive the wishes of most Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots but I may be wrong.

The 1960 constitution has never been changed and I am not too sure what 1963 has got to do with it. You are advocating for a 70/30 split with recognition of the TRNC so what the Greek side believes is irrelevant to you.

Since there is such a wide difference of opinion, no solution will be possible that is my message. There is no need to heat up the fire further.

Byron, I sincerely suggest you read up on The events in Cyprus since 1960. There seems to be a wide gap in your knowledgfe as to the events and situation pre-1974.

The year now is 2008 !!! almost 2009 !!!

Thanks for that very useful info; but it was you who mentioned 'Going back to Cyprus pre-1974'.

Read the English carefully before posting silly remarks !!! You are asking me to look at the history which is something completely different.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, I do not have time to argue endlessly on this issue, but I will give it another try and hopefully you will understand what I am talking about.

You said:
“It was legal under the Treaty of the Guarantee,Kifeas.”

The 1960 treaty of guarantee was an international agreement which indeed gave the so-called guarantor powers, including Turkey, the right to unilateral intervention, for the purpose of establishing the constitutional order. However, international legality does not depend on any one agreement, (just like national legality on just one law,) but instead it is a system of laws, treaties and agreements. The highest international law treaty is the UN Charter. The UN Charter, by virtue of article 103, nullifies the provision of the 1960 treaty of guarantee -not the entire treaty but only the particular provision- that allows for unilateral intervention. It nullifies it because it is in conflict with other articles of the UN Charter that prohibit unilateral military action of one UN member country into the territory of another country, for any reason, prior and /or without UN SC explicit approval or authorization. Therefore, under international law, 1974 Turkish invasion was not legal.

If it was legal, resolution 354 of the UN SC, on the 20th of July 74, would not have demanded the immediate end of military action and the withdrawal of Turkish and any other (all) troops from the soil of Cyprus, outside those explicitly provided by international agreements. If it was legal, Turkey would not have consistently refused the calls of the RoC to have the issue examined by the ICJ of The Hague.

I am willing to discuss the issue of it being objectively justified or not, (and I have arguments in this direction to prove it was not objectively justified,) however, on the issue of it been legal or not, as far as I am concerned (but also according to many international law experts I happened to have come across their opinions,) it is as clear as a Mediterranean sunny day. It was not legal! It was not legal under international law, the only legal system or basis on which it is possible to examine its legality. The 1960 treaty of guarantee is an international agreement, and not an intra-national one, and as such it falls under international law system.

Dear Kifeas,
I am not an expert on international law,or on the UN charter...And you are probably technically right about this...But...If the 103 article nullifies the provision of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee that allows unilateral intervention,why on earth would it be in the agreement...It is obviously not worth the paper it is written on??? And like Kikapu I am wondering why all this fuss, if it is not a valid right???

I agree with Kikapu too that all the so-called guarantors have failed Cyprus badly...If a natiion is to be fully independent she would not need any foreign gurantees from anyone...But we need to find an agreement to get Turkey out of our hair...And at this rate,I cannot see how we will do that...

[denizaksulu]

Sorry!


The split is 70/30 as opposed to the 37% we hold now. The recognition of the TRNC would be the 30%. Compensation to all that have lost land at current market prices. Thats it really...The rest is up to the two separate countries........Don't really understand what you mean by no preconditions though.......Can it happen without them?

A 7% reduction in land to be given back to the GC's and compensation to be paid to those that lost their homes on both sides with recognition of the TRNC as a seperate state. Have I understood correctly ?

I think so!

So if this was accepted by the GC's we would have a done deal. Am I right ? If so what do other GC's think of this proposal ?

That about sums it up Byron.

Instead of discussion we get abuse.

I read the proposal made by Kifeas: he advocates a 97% / 3% split between the two communities. Zan is offering 70% / 30% ; I do not think we are making any progress at all here. The Turks want to keep what they have, the Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots want to restore the status quo but the Turks disagree while the world at large looks on bemused.

This is a problem that nobody wishes to solve !

What do you understand the status quo is Byron....

Pre 1974 !

Well! In 1960 we had our rights in government...By 1963, we didn't......The Greeks used every trick in the book to see to that. Can you be more specific on your date or did you not know about 1960 or 63???

I am not too sure where you are leading too. I said that the Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots wish to restore the Cyprus Republic to the position it was before the 1974 Turkish Invasion when the Cyprus Republic represented 100% of Cypriot territory. This may not necessarily be my view but how I perceive the wishes of most Greeks, Greek Cypriots or Cypriots but I may be wrong.

The 1960 constitution has never been changed and I am not too sure what 1963 has got to do with it. You are advocating for a 70/30 split with recognition of the TRNC so what the Greek side believes is irrelevant to you.

Since there is such a wide difference of opinion, no solution will be possible that is my message. There is no need to heat up the fire further.

Byron, I sincerely suggest you read up on The events in Cyprus since 1960. There seems to be a wide gap in your knowledgfe as to the events and situation pre-1974.

The year now is 2008 !!! almost 2009 !!!

Thanks for that very useful info; but it was you who mentioned 'Going back to Cyprus pre-1974'.

Read the English carefully before posting silly remarks !!! You are asking me to look at the history which is something completely different.

Where are your manners woman!!

[wolf]

Do we TCs really want to live in a state where "majority" GCs rule supreme and you have to deal with GCs in government offices, courts, police, officials where you will always be discriminated to the back of the queue. Minority status is akin to the Indians in the UK, although British citizens they are always at the back of the queue in a country where racism is 1000 times less than in the GC south.

If you say you don't mind and trust GCs to treat you as equals with equal rights with discrimination then why the hell don't you go live in the GC south?

I don`t

[Viewpoint]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!

Kifeas give MrH a chance the majority of what he has put forward is very relevent as do you think we will ever find a solution to force both sides to live united? obviously neither community trusts or wants to live with the other unless it is on their own terms and those terms are unaceeptable to both sides, so the only real alternative is agree partition with added incentives to both sides to encourage them to work side by side as 2 states.

Viewpoint- are you saying that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of Partition.

YES because the alternative is clear and would force TCs to live in a GC state run by GCs leaving us exposed with no community rights just classed as another minority, foreigners in our own country.

Armenians and Maronites are not foreigners in their own country. Are they?

Best to ask them how they feel about being ruled by GCs in a GC state.

[Viewpoint]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!

Kifeas give MrH a chance the majority of what he has put forward is very relevent as do you think we will ever find a solution to force both sides to live united? obviously neither community trusts or wants to live with the other unless it is on their own terms and those terms are unaceeptable to both sides, so the only real alternative is agree partition with added incentives to both sides to encourage them to work side by side as 2 states.

Viewpoint- are you saying that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of Partition.

YES because the alternative is clear and would force TCs to live in a GC state run by GCs leaving us exposed with no community rights just classed as another minority, foreigners in our own country.

Armenians and Maronites are not foreigners in their own country. Are they?

Best to ask them how they feel about being ruled by GCs in a GC state. Maybe they have summited to the idea of being a minority in the GC south they did side with them in 1974.

[denizaksulu]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!

Kifeas give MrH a chance the majority of what he has put forward is very relevent as do you think we will ever find a solution to force both sides to live united? obviously neither community trusts or wants to live with the other unless it is on their own terms and those terms are unaceeptable to both sides, so the only real alternative is agree partition with added incentives to both sides to encourage them to work side by side as 2 states.

Viewpoint- are you saying that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of Partition.

YES because the alternative is clear and would force TCs to live in a GC state run by GCs leaving us exposed with no community rights just classed as another minority, foreigners in our own country.

Armenians and Maronites are not foreigners in their own country. Are they?

Best to ask them how they feel about being ruled by GCs in a GC state. Maybe they have summited to the idea of being a minority in the GC south they did side with them in 1974.

If I am not mistaken, they are not ruled by the Greek Cypriots, they take part in the system. They also have or had representation in the goverment too. ( I remember someone mentioning that it was an Armenian holding a top post in the gov) Perhaps Kafenes or Armenian Cypriot could enlighten us. Unless you know otherwise.

Regards

[Viewpoint]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!

Kifeas give MrH a chance the majority of what he has put forward is very relevent as do you think we will ever find a solution to force both sides to live united? obviously neither community trusts or wants to live with the other unless it is on their own terms and those terms are unaceeptable to both sides, so the only real alternative is agree partition with added incentives to both sides to encourage them to work side by side as 2 states.

Viewpoint- are you saying that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of Partition.

YES because the alternative is clear and would force TCs to live in a GC state run by GCs leaving us exposed with no community rights just classed as another minority, foreigners in our own country.

Armenians and Maronites are not foreigners in their own country. Are they?

Best to ask them how they feel about being ruled by GCs in a GC state. Maybe they have summited to the idea of being a minority in the GC south they did side with them in 1974.

If I am not mistaken, they are not ruled by the Greek Cypriots, they take part in the system. They also have or had representation in the goverment too. ( I remember someone mentioning that it was an Armenian holding a top post in the gov) Perhaps Kafenes or Armenian Cypriot could enlighten us. Unless you know otherwise.

Regards

I am sorry to say but you are very naive and the minorities in the south have been wiped off the map by GC politics and have near enough no say or impact in the running of the GC state.

[denizaksulu]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!

Kifeas give MrH a chance the majority of what he has put forward is very relevent as do you think we will ever find a solution to force both sides to live united? obviously neither community trusts or wants to live with the other unless it is on their own terms and those terms are unaceeptable to both sides, so the only real alternative is agree partition with added incentives to both sides to encourage them to work side by side as 2 states.

Viewpoint- are you saying that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of Partition.

YES because the alternative is clear and would force TCs to live in a GC state run by GCs leaving us exposed with no community rights just classed as another minority, foreigners in our own country.

Armenians and Maronites are not foreigners in their own country. Are they?

Best to ask them how they feel about being ruled by GCs in a GC state. Maybe they have summited to the idea of being a minority in the GC south they did side with them in 1974.

If I am not mistaken, they are not ruled by the Greek Cypriots, they take part in the system. They also have or had representation in the goverment too. ( I remember someone mentioning that it was an Armenian holding a top post in the gov) Perhaps Kafenes or Armenian Cypriot could enlighten us. Unless you know otherwise.

Regards

I am sorry to say but you are very naive and the minorities in the south have been wiped off the map by GC politics and have near enough no say or impact in the running of the GC state.

Remember that the numbers of Armenians and Maronites are far less than TCs in Cyprus.

[zan]

"MrH," the only comment I wish to make is that the scull you picked up as your avatar, very accurately reflects the kind of dead-end ideas you posses, as they appear in the above post and in this forum! They indeed made a really good job on you, and I can only feel sorry for you, for the halusinating utopian stage of world you seem to go through! You have no touch with reality, whatsoever, and a very childish way of thinking!

Kifeas give MrH a chance the majority of what he has put forward is very relevent as do you think we will ever find a solution to force both sides to live united? obviously neither community trusts or wants to live with the other unless it is on their own terms and those terms are unaceeptable to both sides, so the only real alternative is agree partition with added incentives to both sides to encourage them to work side by side as 2 states.

Viewpoint- are you saying that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of Partition.

YES because the alternative is clear and would force TCs to live in a GC state run by GCs leaving us exposed with no community rights just classed as another minority, foreigners in our own country.

Armenians and Maronites are not foreigners in their own country. Are they?

Best to ask them how they feel about being ruled by GCs in a GC state. Maybe they have summited to the idea of being a minority in the GC south they did side with them in 1974.

If I am not mistaken, they are not ruled by the Greek Cypriots, they take part in the system. They also have or had representation in the goverment too. ( I remember someone mentioning that it was an Armenian holding a top post in the gov) Perhaps Kafenes or Armenian Cypriot could enlighten us. Unless you know otherwise.

Regards

I am sorry to say but you are very naive and the minorities in the south have been wiped off the map by GC politics and have near enough no say or impact in the running of the GC state.

Remember that the numbers of Armenians and Maronites are far less than TCs in Cyprus.

Have they ever had our status in Cyprus and had it taken away from them by force?????? I would not dream of asking for such a position in the UK.....So not in the UK...Not in Cyprus...Where the hell do I belong.....In my own country in Cyprus having full representation as signed to in the Zurich agreement.