Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Byron,
What happened in 1963 depends on who you speak to...In pure propaganda terms the GC's will tell you that the 60 agreements were unfair and signed under duress...So President Makarios tried to change the Constitution to make the Sate more fair and more managable...The TCs didn't like this and walked out....

In pure propaganda terms the TC will tell you that it was always the GC ambition to achieve Enosis,Union with Greece...They signed the agreement in order to get rid of the British and then turn on to the real job of achieving Enosis at all cost...That was what Makarios was up to...So the TCs heroically resisted this,and was pushed out of government at gun point....

Both of these points of view are correct, subjectively....The objective truth lies somewhere in the middle...But you will never get anyone to agree on any one version of the truth...This is where most Cypriots go wrong...We are as stuborn as our famour donkeys,hence we believe our version is the gospel truth (and its Islamic equivalent )...

Now see if you can digest this,which is really the easy part...Then we come to the 63-74 ,a somewhat more complicated period...And then the big mama of them all,the 74 events and post 74 era....Let me know how you are managing so far...And we might take it further...

I,m happy with that except for not enough emphasis on the ENOSIS part....Thanks Bir!!!

Just be thankful for small mercies,will you???

[BirKibrisli]

Byron,
What happened in 1963 depends on who you speak to...In pure propaganda terms the GC's will tell you that the 60 agreements were unfair and signed under duress...So President Makarios tried to change the Constitution to make the Sate more fair and more managable...The TCs didn't like this and walked out....

In pure propaganda terms the TC will tell you that it was always the GC ambition to achieve Enosis,Union with Greece...They signed the agreement in order to get rid of the British and then turn on to the real job of achieving Enosis at all cost...That was what Makarios was up to...So the TCs heroically resisted this,and was pushed out of government at gun point....

Both of these points of view are correct, subjectively....The objective truth lies somewhere in the middle...But you will never get anyone to agree on any one version of the truth...This is where most Cypriots go wrong...We are as stuborn as our famour donkeys,hence we believe our version is the gospel truth (and its Islamic equivalent )...

Now see if you can digest this,which is really the easy part...Then we come to the 63-74 ,a somewhat more complicated period...And then the big mama of them all,the 74 events and post 74 era....Let me know how you are managing so far...And we might take it further...

I have read all your replies; quite frankly I am not really interested in discussing the past there are always two sides to an argument. I am more interested in the present and future. As far as I can see and I have commented on it previously, no solution will be possible because both sides are locked in their own positions and not prepared to budge and worst of all the outside world does not care at all. End of story.

To conclude the debate " Do TC's want to live in a GC state as a minority?"; the answer is no the TC's do not wish to live in such a state but neither do the GC's wish to create one - stalemate once again.

But to understand the present we need to look at the past,don't we???

The present makes little sense if you don't consider the period from 50s onwards...Unless you are happy to accept the official GC position (aka propaganda) that Turkey always had an eye on Cyprus and one day decided the international atmosphere were ripe for her armed forces to take a holiday in Cyprus....Or unless you accept the official TC position (aka propaganda) that the TCs were facing imminent massacre by the GCs which forced Turkey's hand....The truth again lies somewhere in the middle,but you will find very few Cypriots to agree on this too...

As to your conclusion...I will say that nobody needs to be a "minority" or "majority" if we all agree that we are Cypriots above all....Our ethnic origins are very mixed and best to be left alone...It should be irrelevant to our lives as Cypriots in our own democratic and independent country...

But because nothing but propaganda has been allowed to take root on both sides about the past and the present,Cypriots are left in an embittered state of mistrust,suspicion,disrespect,resentment and hatred against each other...Only a miracle can now bring about an agreed solution,you are right about that...

[Byron]

Byron,
What happened in 1963 depends on who you speak to...In pure propaganda terms the GC's will tell you that the 60 agreements were unfair and signed under duress...So President Makarios tried to change the Constitution to make the Sate more fair and more managable...The TCs didn't like this and walked out....

In pure propaganda terms the TC will tell you that it was always the GC ambition to achieve Enosis,Union with Greece...They signed the agreement in order to get rid of the British and then turn on to the real job of achieving Enosis at all cost...That was what Makarios was up to...So the TCs heroically resisted this,and was pushed out of government at gun point....

Both of these points of view are correct, subjectively....The objective truth lies somewhere in the middle...But you will never get anyone to agree on any one version of the truth...This is where most Cypriots go wrong...We are as stuborn as our famour donkeys,hence we believe our version is the gospel truth (and its Islamic equivalent )...

Now see if you can digest this,which is really the easy part...Then we come to the 63-74 ,a somewhat more complicated period...And then the big mama of them all,the 74 events and post 74 era....Let me know how you are managing so far...And we might take it further...

I have read all your replies; quite frankly I am not really interested in discussing the past there are always two sides to an argument. I am more interested in the present and future. As far as I can see and I have commented on it previously, no solution will be possible because both sides are locked in their own positions and not prepared to budge and worst of all the outside world does not care at all. End of story.

To conclude the debate " Do TC's want to live in a GC state as a minority?"; the answer is no the TC's do not wish to live in such a state but neither do the GC's wish to create one - stalemate once again.

But to understand the present we need to look at the past,don't we???

The present makes little sense if you don't consider the period from 50s onwards...Unless you are happy to accept the official GC position (aka propaganda) that Turkey always had an eye on Cyprus and one day decided the international atmosphere were ripe for her armed forces to take a holiday in Cyprus....Or unless you accept the official TC position (aka propaganda) that the TCs were facing imminent massacre by the GCs which forced Turkey's hand....The truth again lies somewhere in the middle,but you will find very few Cypriots to agree on this too...

As to your conclusion...I will say that nobody needs to be a "minority" or "majority" if we all agree that we are Cypriots above all....Our ethnic origins are very mixed and best to be left alone...It should be irrelevant to our lives as Cypriots in our own democratic and independent country...

But because nothing but propaganda has been allowed to take root on both sides about the past and the present,Cypriots are left in an embittered state of mistrust,suspicion,disrespect,resentment and hatred against each other...Only a miracle can now bring about an agreed solution,you are right about that...

Under normal circumstances, I agree that you need to understand the past in order not to commit the same mistakes again. That is why we study history. I am going further here : both communities have studied the past but are not prepared to budge on their opinions. I would personally agree that the truth is somewhere in the middle but perhaps I fall into the minority category. As a result no solution is possible or as you say a miracle is found.

On the conclusion point of the debate - if you read between the lines we are saying the same thing nobody wishes to create a majority or minority situation but not everyone sees it that way. Therefore we have stalemate. No winner, no loser just chaos, perhaps we deserve that !!!!

[Paphitis]

Byron,
What happened in 1963 depends on who you speak to...In pure propaganda terms the GC's will tell you that the 60 agreements were unfair and signed under duress...So President Makarios tried to change the Constitution to make the Sate more fair and more managable...The TCs didn't like this and walked out....

In pure propaganda terms the TC will tell you that it was always the GC ambition to achieve Enosis,Union with Greece...They signed the agreement in order to get rid of the British and then turn on to the real job of achieving Enosis at all cost...That was what Makarios was up to...So the TCs heroically resisted this,and was pushed out of government at gun point....

Both of these points of view are correct, subjectively....The objective truth lies somewhere in the middle...But you will never get anyone to agree on any one version of the truth...This is where most Cypriots go wrong...We are as stuborn as our famour donkeys,hence we believe our version is the gospel truth (and its Islamic equivalent )...

Now see if you can digest this,which is really the easy part...Then we come to the 63-74 ,a somewhat more complicated period...And then the big mama of them all,the 74 events and post 74 era....Let me know how you are managing so far...And we might take it further...

I have read all your replies; quite frankly I am not really interested in discussing the past there are always two sides to an argument. I am more interested in the present and future. As far as I can see and I have commented on it previously, no solution will be possible because both sides are locked in their own positions and not prepared to budge and worst of all the outside world does not care at all. End of story.

To conclude the debate " Do TC's want to live in a GC state as a minority?"; the answer is no the TC's do not wish to live in such a state but neither do the GC's wish to create one - stalemate once again.

But to understand the present we need to look at the past,don't we???

The present makes little sense if you don't consider the period from 50s onwards...Unless you are happy to accept the official GC position (aka propaganda) that Turkey always had an eye on Cyprus and one day decided the international atmosphere were ripe for her armed forces to take a holiday in Cyprus....Or unless you accept the official TC position (aka propaganda) that the TCs were facing imminent massacre by the GCs which forced Turkey's hand....The truth again lies somewhere in the middle,but you will find very few Cypriots to agree on this too...

As to your conclusion...I will say that nobody needs to be a "minority" or "majority" if we all agree that we are Cypriots above all....Our ethnic origins are very mixed and best to be left alone...It should be irrelevant to our lives as Cypriots in our own democratic and independent country...

But because nothing but propaganda has been allowed to take root on both sides about the past and the present,Cypriots are left in an embittered state of mistrust,suspicion,disrespect,resentment and hatred against each other...Only a miracle can now bring about an agreed solution,you are right about that...

You look at the past to justify Turkey's invasion and occupation of Cyprus. The GCs are looking towards the future by trying to negotiate a BBF solution with a strong central government, single sovereignty, single citizenship, single international personality and founded on conventional democratic and human rights principles.

You are trying to justify Turkey's invasion despite Turkey contravening the very essence of the Treaty of Guarantee by maintaining the 34 year occupation, and preventing 200,000 refugees from returning to their homes.

[BirKibrisli]

Byron,
What happened in 1963 depends on who you speak to...In pure propaganda terms the GC's will tell you that the 60 agreements were unfair and signed under duress...So President Makarios tried to change the Constitution to make the Sate more fair and more managable...The TCs didn't like this and walked out....

In pure propaganda terms the TC will tell you that it was always the GC ambition to achieve Enosis,Union with Greece...They signed the agreement in order to get rid of the British and then turn on to the real job of achieving Enosis at all cost...That was what Makarios was up to...So the TCs heroically resisted this,and was pushed out of government at gun point....

Both of these points of view are correct, subjectively....The objective truth lies somewhere in the middle...But you will never get anyone to agree on any one version of the truth...This is where most Cypriots go wrong...We are as stuborn as our famour donkeys,hence we believe our version is the gospel truth (and its Islamic equivalent )...

Now see if you can digest this,which is really the easy part...Then we come to the 63-74 ,a somewhat more complicated period...And then the big mama of them all,the 74 events and post 74 era....Let me know how you are managing so far...And we might take it further...

I have read all your replies; quite frankly I am not really interested in discussing the past there are always two sides to an argument. I am more interested in the present and future. As far as I can see and I have commented on it previously, no solution will be possible because both sides are locked in their own positions and not prepared to budge and worst of all the outside world does not care at all. End of story.

To conclude the debate " Do TC's want to live in a GC state as a minority?"; the answer is no the TC's do not wish to live in such a state but neither do the GC's wish to create one - stalemate once again.

But to understand the present we need to look at the past,don't we???

The present makes little sense if you don't consider the period from 50s onwards...Unless you are happy to accept the official GC position (aka propaganda) that Turkey always had an eye on Cyprus and one day decided the international atmosphere were ripe for her armed forces to take a holiday in Cyprus....Or unless you accept the official TC position (aka propaganda) that the TCs were facing imminent massacre by the GCs which forced Turkey's hand....The truth again lies somewhere in the middle,but you will find very few Cypriots to agree on this too...

As to your conclusion...I will say that nobody needs to be a "minority" or "majority" if we all agree that we are Cypriots above all....Our ethnic origins are very mixed and best to be left alone...It should be irrelevant to our lives as Cypriots in our own democratic and independent country...

But because nothing but propaganda has been allowed to take root on both sides about the past and the present,Cypriots are left in an embittered state of mistrust,suspicion,disrespect,resentment and hatred against each other...Only a miracle can now bring about an agreed solution,you are right about that...

You look at the past to justify Turkey's invasion and occupation of Cyprus. The GCs are looking towards the future by trying to negotiate a BBF solution with a strong central government, single sovereignty, single citizenship, single international personality and founded on conventional democratic and human rights principles.

You are trying to justify Turkey's invasion despite Turkey contravening the very essence of the Treaty of Guarantee by maintaining the 34 year occupation, and preventing 200,000 refugees from returning to their homes.

I am not trying to justify anything,Paphidis.
I have often stated my position on Turkey's actions.
I believe that the initial act of intervention was legal and justified.
Turkey was one of the guarantor's of the independence of the Republic which was clearly put in jeopardy by the Sampson coup...Turkey became an occupier when she failed to restore the independence and sovereignty of the Cyprus state. And decided to divide it and bring in the settlers to change the demographics...A BBF is not compatible with democratic and human rights principles however you dress it up...True democracy can only be achieved in a unitary Cyprus state where people's ethnic backgrounds play no part whatsoever...You can then have one-vote-one value,full human rights,equal opportunity,freedom of movement,right of return,rule of the law etc...But we can't have that till people like yourself stop claiming that you are Greeks/Turks before Cypriots... And start showing empathy and compassion for your compatriots who happen to be from the other main Cypriot community...So stop your misguided and pointless indignation and start being objective and realistic about our past and the present. The future would then take care of itself

[Byron]

Byron,
What happened in 1963 depends on who you speak to...In pure propaganda terms the GC's will tell you that the 60 agreements were unfair and signed under duress...So President Makarios tried to change the Constitution to make the Sate more fair and more managable...The TCs didn't like this and walked out....

In pure propaganda terms the TC will tell you that it was always the GC ambition to achieve Enosis,Union with Greece...They signed the agreement in order to get rid of the British and then turn on to the real job of achieving Enosis at all cost...That was what Makarios was up to...So the TCs heroically resisted this,and was pushed out of government at gun point....

Both of these points of view are correct, subjectively....The objective truth lies somewhere in the middle...But you will never get anyone to agree on any one version of the truth...This is where most Cypriots go wrong...We are as stuborn as our famour donkeys,hence we believe our version is the gospel truth (and its Islamic equivalent )...

Now see if you can digest this,which is really the easy part...Then we come to the 63-74 ,a somewhat more complicated period...And then the big mama of them all,the 74 events and post 74 era....Let me know how you are managing so far...And we might take it further...

I have read all your replies; quite frankly I am not really interested in discussing the past there are always two sides to an argument. I am more interested in the present and future. As far as I can see and I have commented on it previously, no solution will be possible because both sides are locked in their own positions and not prepared to budge and worst of all the outside world does not care at all. End of story.

To conclude the debate " Do TC's want to live in a GC state as a minority?"; the answer is no the TC's do not wish to live in such a state but neither do the GC's wish to create one - stalemate once again.

But to understand the present we need to look at the past,don't we???

The present makes little sense if you don't consider the period from 50s onwards...Unless you are happy to accept the official GC position (aka propaganda) that Turkey always had an eye on Cyprus and one day decided the international atmosphere were ripe for her armed forces to take a holiday in Cyprus....Or unless you accept the official TC position (aka propaganda) that the TCs were facing imminent massacre by the GCs which forced Turkey's hand....The truth again lies somewhere in the middle,but you will find very few Cypriots to agree on this too...

As to your conclusion...I will say that nobody needs to be a "minority" or "majority" if we all agree that we are Cypriots above all....Our ethnic origins are very mixed and best to be left alone...It should be irrelevant to our lives as Cypriots in our own democratic and independent country...

But because nothing but propaganda has been allowed to take root on both sides about the past and the present,Cypriots are left in an embittered state of mistrust,suspicion,disrespect,resentment and hatred against each other...Only a miracle can now bring about an agreed solution,you are right about that...

You look at the past to justify Turkey's invasion and occupation of Cyprus. The GCs are looking towards the future by trying to negotiate a BBF solution with a strong central government, single sovereignty, single citizenship, single international personality and founded on conventional democratic and human rights principles.

You are trying to justify Turkey's invasion despite Turkey contravening the very essence of the Treaty of Guarantee by maintaining the 34 year occupation, and preventing 200,000 refugees from returning to their homes.

I am not trying to justify anything,Paphidis.
I have often stated my position on Turkey's actions.
I believe that the initial act of intervention was legal and justified.
Turkey was one of the guarantor's of the independence of the Republic which was clearly put in jeopardy by the Sampson coup...Turkey became an occupier when she failed to restore the independence and sovereignty of the Cyprus state. And decided to divide it and bring in the settlers to change the demographics...A BBF is not compatible with democratic and human rights principles however you dress it up...True democracy can only be achieved in a unitary Cyprus state where people's ethnic backgrounds play no part whatsoever...You can then have one-vote-one value,full human rights,equal opportunity,freedom of movement,right of return,rule of the law etc...But we can't have that till people like yourself stop claiming that you are Greeks/Turks before Cypriots... And start showing empathy and compassion for your compatriots who happen to be from the other main Cypriot community...So stop your misguided and pointless indignation and start being objective and realistic about our past and the present. The future would then take care of itself

It just will not end !!!

Comments like these from both sides do not help our cause at all for a settlement. We can argue and accuse each other for ever but that will not solve the Cyprus problem. As I mentioned before both communities are not prepared to budge; this is clearly evidenced by a number of comments posted also on this site. What happened to democracy !

[MrH]

Shall me just say that, after all this bickering and non-agreements, Partition is the best way forward? Let's at least agree on something - WE DON'T AGREE ON ANYTHING!

Many of the Pro-Partitionists often use the term "Divorce", why? Because that's exactly what we do: We bicker, argue, condemn, where the next stage has to simply be........a clean Legal Divorce Settlement.

Actually, that it! the new Cyprus Negotiations should be known as a

CYPRUS DIVORCE SETTLEMENT

[Get Real!]

Many of the Pro-Partitionists often use the term "Divorce", why? Because that's exactly what we do: We bicker, argue, condemn, where the next stage has to simply be........a clean Legal Divorce Settlement.

Actually, that it! the new Cyprus Negotiations should be known as a

CYPRUS DIVORCE SETTLEMENT

Ever heard of a prenuptial agreement? Well that’s what the London/Zurich agreements mean to us… that is you can remain in the marriage and enjoy the house, contents, and car, but once you walk out you only get to take your personal belongings with you…

[Viewpoint]

Many of the Pro-Partitionists often use the term "Divorce", why? Because that's exactly what we do: We bicker, argue, condemn, where the next stage has to simply be........a clean Legal Divorce Settlement.

Actually, that it! the new Cyprus Negotiations should be known as a

CYPRUS DIVORCE SETTLEMENT

Ever heard of a prenuptial agreement? Well that’s what the London/Zurich agreements mean to us… that is you can remain in the marriage and enjoy the house, contents, and car, but once you walk out you only get to take your personal belongings with you…

Rubbish GR, there was no prenup back then, the 1960 agreement was the marriage document and now its time to to concede that after 48 years we cannot stay married as we do not agree on anything, time to break the cord and go our separate ways.

[Kifeas]

I am not trying to justify anything,Paphidis.
I have often stated my position on Turkey's actions.
I believe that the initial act of intervention was legal and justified.

Bir, legal and justified on what basis?

Legal would have been, had the issue which started been discussed in the UN SC on the evening of Friday the 19th July 74, and the resolution that would have been issued, did not produce any results, and consequently the SC would have authorised the undertaking of military action, always under its auspices. That is what would have been legal under international law, and not the way Turkey acted by invading unilaterally! You have to remember that the provisions of the UN Charter take binding priority over the provisions of any other international agreement (article 103 of the UN Charter.) In the same way that Greece acted illegally, by intervening through its officers in the Cypriot National Guard in order to overthrow Makarios; in exactly the same illegal way acted Turkey, by unilaterally invading Cyprus. They both illegally intervened /invaded into a sovereign UN member country, that only the UN SC has such power to authorise.

Justified? Justified would have been, had the coupists attacked the TCs or had shown intention to do so, and therefore their lives were by fact in an immanent thread. Such was not the case, and the coupist “government” not only did not show such an intent, but to the contrary it proclaimed that the TCs were not in danger and that the intercommunal negotiations would have continued where they had stopped previously, between Klerides and Denktash! Okay, I accept one can say that perhaps that was a trick on their behalf, perhaps to gain time. However, since the issue had begun to be discussed in the UN already by the evening of the 19th of July, Turkey could have waited for the outcome. The UN SC would have in all likelihood issued a resolution, in which it would have asked the coupists to immediately surrender power back to Makarios. Had they failed to do so, then Turkey could have asked the SC to allow or authorise its intervention. Turkey instead, sidestepped all legal diplomatic and political means, and rushed to invade before allowing time for a resolution to be obtained. It only consulted with Britain, which said to them to wait and allow diplomacy and other means of pressure to materialise, and then perhaps consider any other action.