Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

We're going round in circles. ...

As I understand it from Bir's arguments, the TCs deserve their own state because they lived in fear of the GCs in the 60s.

The evidence for this unilateral "fear" can be gleaned from memoirs of 'personal experience', and little else.

Yet we are told, there can be no hope for future coexistence because the "fear" will still be present. How? How would this fear be passed on to the future TC generations since Bir has only addressed GCs passing on "bitterness and hatred". The kindly TCs would never pass on hatred about GCs. So, why would they continue to live in fear of GCs?

I'm sorry, but my conclusion, thus far, is that Bir's excuse should be confined to the trashcan of historical misinformation ....

[Piratis]

As I understand it from Bir's arguments, the TCs deserve their own state because they lived in fear of the GCs in the 60s.

So the TCs "deserve" to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of innocent Cypriots and have their own state on stolen land because they suffered for a decade during a conflict they started?

Then how many Turks do we "deserve" to ethnically cleanse for the 10s of thousands of innocent people killed and the 100s of years of oppression we suffered by the Turks?

We would deserve most of Turkey as a compensation for what the Turks have done to us from 1751 until 1878, and the rest of it for what they have done to us from 1958 until 2010 (and counting).

If Bir thinks that we owe to them something because of the past, then he should remember that they owe to us a ton more, and if we were to "settle the account", they are the ones who would have to give, not us. If I owe you a couple of thousands, and you owe to me several millions, then I don't think you are the one who should want such account to be settled. But of course the Turks don't want to settle the account. They are just looking for excuses in order to commit yet more crimes against us, just like they have done for the 359 out of the 439 years they exist on this island.

How would this fear be passed on to the future TC generations

The TCs have the right to pass their fears and their hate to the future generations for as long as they want. It is only the GCs who are supposed to forget all the hardships and crimes that the Turks have committed against us. We are supposed to even forget the crimes that they commit against us NOW and pretend that nothing is happening.

[Piratis]

.I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74

Nobody ignores what happened to TCs before 74. But you do ignore what happened to GCs before 74. The suffering of GCs from 1958 until 1974, and from 1571 until 1878, is something you refuse to acknowledge.

So yes, you do minimize the suffering of GCs after 74, you totally ignore the GC suffering before 74, and you greatly exaggerate the TC suffering in that one decade. All this in order to excuse yet more crimes against us.

[denizaksulu]

.I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74

Nobody ignores what happened to TCs before 74. But you do ignore what happened to GCs before 74. The suffering of GCs from 1958 until 1974, and from 1571 until 1878, is something you refuse to acknowledge.

So yes, you do minimize the suffering of GCs after 74, you totally ignore the GC suffering before 74, and you greatly exaggerate the TC suffering in that one decade. All this in order to excuse yet more crimes against us.

No comment needed

Doesnt he get bored?

[Pyrpolizer]

I have no personal problem with B25,DT..He keeps singling me out for attack,for some reason...I suspect he is somebody we know who doesn't want to attack me under his/her real /original Nick...all will be revealed I suppose...

DT,I have been trying to bring you guys into the reality of the situation...
I know you believe a BBF is a big compromise for the GCs ,but you fail to see that it would be an even bigger compromise for the TCs...Whether you or the World recognise it or not,the TCs now have their own state,and their worst fears,fear for their lives,have been put to rest...You do not see this,because you do not appreciate how much the TCs suffered during the 63-74 period...It was my realisation of that which made me try to tell you...Only to cop a lot of abuse...I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74..There is an attitude on this forum that if you talk about the suffering of one side,you must be blind to the suffering of the other..That is not the case...We have to face the realities,DT...It was like this in the past,it is like this now,and it will be like this forever..."This" that I am talking about is the fact that what has been "won" at war cannot possibly be given at the negotiation table, unless there are big compromises made by the losing side...That is the way of the world...look at the Israeli situation if you dont agree with me...

Just sit back and watch all the abuse that will rain on me now...For telling you the way things happen in this world...I always thought you were giving too much weight to the EU card...And understood that you were hoping for a miracle to come along...It is not going to happen...There will not be a solution if that means the TCs will again risk being in the same weak, minority position they were during 63-74...They would rather become totally Turkified than risk going back to those dark years...And I keep telling you for the average TC that would mean going back "Home"!


I am your Friend, DT,that is why I am telling you all this...It is a bitter pill to swollow,but it is the reality I am afraid...

I understand your thoughts dear Bir and I think they are valid to some degree.

The difference in our case and other cases like Israel is that both sides have something to exchange which is almost equally valuable. The GC side will get properties and land back, the TCs will get a recognised state albeit Federal, double Standard of living, and a clear future for their children.

For some TCs the fear of the past is indeed unsurpassed so the only thing they would be happy with is the status quo, or annexation or partition. HOWEVER there is another percentage of TCs that were trained by Denktash to immitate this fear in a theatrical way which often reaches the point of comedy. And there is another percentage who do not share this fear.
Therefore I partially agree/disagree with you regarding the "fear" factor.

The fear factor together with nationalism are responsible for the internal battle/or hope if you like among the TC people that by getting recognition they get it all without having to give anything in return. This expectation extends also to hopes for legal partition. And this will be the official stance if Eroglu is elected. Therefore no agreed solution here.

If we exclude the fear factor and nationalism (which is what the case of Talat right now) we still have other difficulties in solving the problem:
a)The matter of properties
b)Turkey's dream to continue having a say over Cyprus.

If these two difficulties remain, then obviously we will not have an agreed solution with Talat either.

So there will be no other option than wait and see whether there will be anything else for exchange in the future.

[Oracle]

.I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74

Nobody ignores what happened to TCs before 74. But you do ignore what happened to GCs before 74. The suffering of GCs from 1958 until 1974, and from 1571 until 1878, is something you refuse to acknowledge.

So yes, you do minimize the suffering of GCs after 74, you totally ignore the GC suffering before 74, and you greatly exaggerate the TC suffering in that one decade. All this in order to excuse yet more crimes against us.

No comment needed

Doesnt he get bored?

Would you like Admin to allow the "Old Gramophone" picture, you are so attached to, for your Avatar?

It does so suit you!

[denizaksulu]

.I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74

Nobody ignores what happened to TCs before 74. But you do ignore what happened to GCs before 74. The suffering of GCs from 1958 until 1974, and from 1571 until 1878, is something you refuse to acknowledge.

So yes, you do minimize the suffering of GCs after 74, you totally ignore the GC suffering before 74, and you greatly exaggerate the TC suffering in that one decade. All this in order to excuse yet more crimes against us.

No comment needed

Doesnt he get bored?

Would you like Admin to allow the "Old Gramophone" picture, you are so attached to, for your Avatar?

It does so suit you!

Aaaa, the defender of the meek. How sweet.!!

Sorry, I am happy with my Avatar.

I gift it to your 'protege' Piratis.

[Pyrpolizer]

.I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74

Nobody ignores what happened to TCs before 74. But you do ignore what happened to GCs before 74. The suffering of GCs from 1958 until 1974, and from 1571 until 1878, is something you refuse to acknowledge.

So yes, you do minimize the suffering of GCs after 74, you totally ignore the GC suffering before 74, and you greatly exaggerate the TC suffering in that one decade. All this in order to excuse yet more crimes against us.

No comment needed

Doesnt he get bored?

Would you like Admin to allow the "Old Gramophone" picture, you are so attached to, for your Avatar?

It does so suit you!

Aaaa, the defender of the meek. How sweet.!!

Sorry, I am happy with my Avatar.

I gift it to your 'protege' Piratis.

All 7 of them to Piratis?
Shesh he will get rich.
Any other eligible?

[denizaksulu]

[BirKibrisli]

I have no personal problem with B25,DT..He keeps singling me out for attack,for some reason...I suspect he is somebody we know who doesn't want to attack me under his/her real /original Nick...all will be revealed I suppose...

DT,I have been trying to bring you guys into the reality of the situation...
I know you believe a BBF is a big compromise for the GCs ,but you fail to see that it would be an even bigger compromise for the TCs...Whether you or the World recognise it or not,the TCs now have their own state,and their worst fears,fear for their lives,have been put to rest...You do not see this,because you do not appreciate how much the TCs suffered during the 63-74 period...It was my realisation of that which made me try to tell you...Only to cop a lot of abuse...I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74..There is an attitude on this forum that if you talk about the suffering of one side,you must be blind to the suffering of the other..That is not the case...We have to face the realities,DT...It was like this in the past,it is like this now,and it will be like this forever..."This" that I am talking about is the fact that what has been "won" at war cannot possibly be given at the negotiation table, unless there are big compromises made by the losing side...That is the way of the world...look at the Israeli situation if you dont agree with me...

Just sit back and watch all the abuse that will rain on me now...For telling you the way things happen in this world...I always thought you were giving too much weight to the EU card...And understood that you were hoping for a miracle to come along...It is not going to happen...There will not be a solution if that means the TCs will again risk being in the same weak, minority position they were during 63-74...They would rather become totally Turkified than risk going back to those dark years...And I keep telling you for the average TC that would mean going back "Home"!


I am your Friend, DT,that is why I am telling you all this...It is a bitter pill to swollow,but it is the reality I am afraid...

I understand your thoughts dear Bir and I think they are valid to some degree.

The difference in our case and other cases like Israel is that both sides have something to exchange which is almost equally valuable. The GC side will get properties and land back, the TCs will get a recognised state albeit Federal, double Standard of living, and a clear future for their children.

For some TCs the fear of the past is indeed unsurpassed so the only thing they would be happy with is the status quo, or annexation or partition. HOWEVER there is another percentage of TCs that were trained by Denktash to immitate this fear in a theatrical way which often reaches the point of comedy. And there is another percentage who do not share this fear.
Therefore I partially agree/disagree with you regarding the "fear" factor.

The fear factor together with nationalism are responsible for the internal battle/or hope if you like among the TC people that by getting recognition they get it all without having to give anything in return. This expectation extends also to hopes for legal partition. And this will be the official stance if Eroglu is elected. Therefore no agreed solution here.

If we exclude the fear factor and nationalism (which is what the case of Talat right now) we still have other difficulties in solving the problem:
a)The matter of properties
b)Turkey's dream to continue having a say over Cyprus.

If these two difficulties remain, then obviously we will not have an agreed solution with Talat either.

So there will be no other option than wait and see whether there will be anything else for exchange in the future.

You are so right,dear Pyro,about the equally valuable things two sides have to exchange..The problem is that both sides do not see it like that..Most TCs who insist on Turkey staying in the picture think their compromise will be too big and too dangerous...I keep coming back to the trauma factor...The emotional baggage is too heavy on TC shoulders.We have wasted so many years and we still don't know how to go about healing this...The best we can come up with is "lets forget it and have the solution,after which all will be okey,trust and understanding will follow"...I wish it could be like that but I am afraid it is wishful thinking...The GC trauma is no less I am sure...But you have had your compensations...You have had the whole running of the RoC for many years now,recognised by the World...You have had the opportunities to rebuild your lives and had the luxury of being able to plan the future for your children...The TCs have been stuck in exactly the same muddle as during the 63-74 period...They now live in a larger enclave,still very much dependent on Turkey for survival,still very much the forgotten and neglected party in the equation...they still feel very much like second class citizens in their own country...so they have embraced the one and only positive outcome from the conflict : the peace of mind about their physical security...We all have to understand this,and find some way of accomodating the TCs on that score...The other factor they will not risk is losing effective control of their own state after a federal solution...Come up with answers to these two difficult problems and you have Cyprus problem solved...Turkey's territorial ambitions have been greatly exaggerated by your own leaders in the past ,for political reasons...The EU incentive,used properly,can offset this...You need to understand one more thing...Cyprus has become a matter of national pride for the Turkish people and hence for their governments...Even Erdogan cannot ignore this...