Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

I think posts should be judged on the context in which they are presented. That means, it doesn't matter what you said last year or the year before, but what you are saying now!

If Bir is man enough to taunt endlessly with demands that we accept the TCs as they are, and accept the presence of Turkish troops until Turkey or the TCs, or both, decide they are ready to go, then he should also accept criticisms from aggrieved others without pretence to having been "changed" by GCs from some "divine" previous position.

Always the GCs to blame!

Sweetheart. Did I mention 'Greeks are to blame'? I too have been accused of the same charge. Hence I do not post much.........no time to read all.

But you would preder the 'whole picture' and not just 'snap-shots' wouldnt you? Easily taken out of context like that.

Deniz, you know very well it is always the greeks' fault even when it's not.

[denizaksulu]

I think posts should be judged on the context in which they are presented. That means, it doesn't matter what you said last year or the year before, but what you are saying now!

If Bir is man enough to taunt endlessly with demands that we accept the TCs as they are, and accept the presence of Turkish troops until Turkey or the TCs, or both, decide they are ready to go, then he should also accept criticisms from aggrieved others without pretence to having been "changed" by GCs from some "divine" previous position.

Always the GCs to blame!

Sweetheart. Did I mention 'Greeks are to blame'? I too have been accused of the same charge. Hence I do not post much.........no time to read all.

But you would preder the 'whole picture' and not just 'snap-shots' wouldnt you? Easily taken out of context like that.

Deniz, you know very well it is always the greeks' fault even when it's not.

Come on now. We cant blame the Greeks for everything. They wont have anything to moan about.

We are ALL to blame. What we disagree with is who started what?

Pratis says 1958

GR says 1571

DA says with the Venetians and their mal-treatment of the Jews of Cyprus.

I dunno. I am cheesed of somewhat.

[denizaksulu]

and others say 1974............

[YFred]

and others say 1974............

Trust Piratis to pick the year I was born. The problem started in 1960. After the signing of the agreement, to plan to destroy the roc and join it with Greece is the starting point, no matter which way you look at it.

They can quote anything they like, en delya galburin. It does not hold water.

[denizaksulu]

and others say 1974............

Trust Piratis to pick the year I was born. The problem started in 1960. After the signing of the agreement, to plan to destroy the roc and join it with Greece is the starting point, no matter which way you look at it.

They can quote anything they like, en delya galburin. It does not hold water.

Elek or kalbur?

[YFred]

and others say 1974............

Trust Piratis to pick the year I was born. The problem started in 1960. After the signing of the agreement, to plan to destroy the roc and join it with Greece is the starting point, no matter which way you look at it.

They can quote anything they like, en delya galburin. It does not hold water.

Elek or kalbur?

The religous one.

[Get Real!]

Pratis says 1958

Was that intentional?

[denizaksulu]

Pratis says 1958

Was that intentional?

I keep on making that mistake over and over again. Whats wrong with me?

[BirKibrisli]

Thank you both very much for your supportive posts,Pyro and Deniz...

I am just wondering...could B25 got my posts wrong regarding the rapes of the GC Women? In one of them I mentioned that most TCs worshipped the Turkish soldiers and did not think they were capable of such atrocities...Could he have thought I was expressing that opinion now???
But he has singled me out for some reason...I think there might be more to it than meets the eye...

Ok Bir I will just agree to disagree and leave it there. You have your ideas I have mine.

we'll the the politcians do the talking and see what comes.

Have a good day.

But I would like to know if you had got my posts wrong...I was expressing empathy and compassion for the GC victims of this hineous crime...I did not deserve to be kicked in the teeth like that...Can you point to one post of yours where you showed empathy for,say,those massacred in the 3 TC villages??? Why did you think you had the moral right to attack me the way you did??? I deserve an explanation ,at least...

[BirKibrisli]

Hi,Kikapu...I already said my goodbyes to this thread but i cannot let your post go unanswered...You have put a lot of effort into writing it,and I have no doubt you sincerely believe in what you say...

Let me say this from the start...I am the same person who for years came here and advocated a Unitary state solution based entirely on one vote one value system,and without any ethnic considerations or affirmative actions...I am also the same person who believes that the best way out of this situation is to assert our Cypriotness and push our ethnicity in the background...It makes sense to me to focus on our similarities than our diffrences...Any solution that will highlight our ethnicities will only work to cement the old bittreness and resentment...That is still my belief....However...It takes 2 to tango...I have realised that neither side are ready and able to dance to my or your tunes...I will tell you why...The TCs are not ready and able (and I am talking about those in the dispora as well) for the same reason that a trauma patient would not be able to return to the scene of his/her pain and suffering or be able to face his/her abuser without an intensive therapy and rehabilitation process...Now sometimes this therapy might include taking the patient back to the scene or make her confront her abuser,but that would have to be done under strict guidelines and precautions...In Cyprus this has not taken place...We have wasted precious time in denials and acusations and counter accusations,only to make healing almost impossible...On the other hand the GCs are not ready and able because they have been brainwashed from the beginning by their education and their Church...Enosis was their legitimate right,they believed,and when that was frustrated the TCs became the butt of their bitterness and resentment ..In GC eyes we became a despised minority who always reminded them of the Ottoman times,towards whom they could target their feelings or anger,vengence and hatred...I do not have any doubts that this Forum reflects the reality in the streets of Cyprus...Now,I am NOT saying that the TCs have not been equally brainwashed...I am not saying they are not harbouring similar feelings towards the GCs...I believe they do...So when you have 2 sides with so much physical and emotional baggage,who have no trust,respect or understanding for each other,you cannot expect them to get together and live in harmony,no matter how noble and desirable you or I think that might be...

Just look at the treatment we get here in this Forum...There are notable exceptions I know,and I am sorry I cannot say much to comfort our dear,decent GC compatriots... Unfortunately they find themselves as good apples in a basket of rotten ones and they cannot help the situation any more than you and I can...Day in day out we are told we are Ottoman remnants,unwelcomed guests,neo-imperialists,neo-colonialists,thieves,rapists and murderers...Not to mention more mild insults like liars,idiots,degenerates,and as one famously calls us "Turks" as if that is the biggest insult you could bestow on anyone...

Our pain and suffering is minimised,excused,justified,and most often totally denied...And when we talk about our personal trauma we are ridiculed,and accused of bringing everything upon ourselves as we are tools for Turkey's territorial ambitions...We are not really Cypriots but Turks who are somehow less patriotic or disloyal to our country,because we refused to let them present our motherland to Greece on a plate...

The best solution I can advocate now is a BBF with a "mild" Federal system,as an interim solution...Lets have as much democracy and EU principles as we can accomodate,and lets make sure neither Constituent State can unilaterally cecede from the Federated entity,and make sure as much land as possible changes hands to satisfy the right of return of as many refugees as possible,but let us also have some guarantees which will make the TCs sleep better at night in their own homes... A formula can be found perhaps where all the Turkish soldiers leave the island but the protection and the guarantees remain for some time,till we have the opportunity to build mutual understanding and trust...

I did not move lightly to this position,dear Kikapu,and I know it is very difficult to argue logically or intellectually with your democracy and human rights push...I know my arguments are mostly emotional,but they make sense to me...And they obviously make a lot of sense to the TCs...I am also aware that we have alternative lives now,and we do not live in Cyprus and need never return...We can be as ideological as the sky,and the solution need not affect us in the least...But when I come here and witness the denials,the insults and the abuse,and listen to those members of my family who still live in Cyprus tell me they couldn't possibly return to the bad old days when it was almost a crime to be a TC,I have no other choice but to sympathise...

Hello Bir,

Listen my friend, I can't argue with most of what you wrote above and Cypriots have been wasting time for the last 45+ years to find a solution, but unfortunately, some did not want a solution, so here we are. In order to get the parties together to begin a new start is to agree on a Fair & Just solution as well as guaranteeing everyone’s safety concerns. It's really not that difficult once the players agree to it if they had the TCs and GCs best interests in mind. Unfortunately, that has not been the case for a very long time and until they do, we will remain as we are.

I told you that for the GCs, the 74 war still goes on, because that was the last major event in chain of events that has burdened the island and it's people. As a result, they will see the north in a very negative light and all those living there or supporting the north. It is the nature of the beast, and until the war ends, it will continue as such, much to the dislikes of those who do not support the ongoing war and it’s sufferings, but want peace instead.

Bir, I know who you were then and who you are now. It is the same person, but a person who has a very heavy load on his mind and I think I know what it is. Let me just tell you my friend, I understand your situation.!

Thanks,mate..If there is one person here who really understands my dilemma,it is you...followed closely by Pyro...I wish nothing more than a just and lasting solution to our little problem,and I don't really care how we get there...We can put the horse before the cart,the cart before the horse,he horse and the cart on our shoulders,whatever...We need a solution and we need it fast before partition becomes irreversible...I had one hope,one consolation prize if you like : If the worse came to the worse I could go and live in the South,and preserve and enjoy my Cypriotness...The bitterness and hatred exibited on this forum towards all things Turkish and TC have crushed those hopes...I don't think it will be possible for any TC to live in the RoC without being confronted by the ghosts of the past on a daily basis...As long as the average GC believes Cyprus problem started in 1974 by Turkey waking up one morning and deciding it was a nice day to invade little Cyprus across the waters just for the fun of it,we cannot have peace and harmony living together...I just think too much time have been wasted,or ,rather, too many brains have been washed for too long,on both sides,for this to be possible...I hope I am wrong,but I feel nothing will come out of these talks,and Talat will be defeated in April by Eroglu,and we will be back to "No solution Is a Solution" policy of Denktas,and so it will go on forever...

Bir,

i'm not sure what personal thing you've got going with B25 here, but there's one thing I don't want you to misunderstand. There is aggressive and sometimes offensive argument that comes out of GC keyboards on this forum, this does not mean however a racist attitude towards all things Turkish.

Sure there is a hell of a lot of animosity when everyday you wake up, get in your car to drive to work and the first thing you see is Pendadaktylos and a large turkish flag with the words "what a joy it is to be a Turk" inscribed next to it. But these feelings are due to the ceasefire. Because thats what it is....a ceasefire.


Kiks is absolutely right when he talks of empathy coming after the solution. How can you have empathy for a nation that is currently in an offensive formation on your land?

The Cypriots have done something very important that was flagged today by Hadjigeorgiou on TV. They have accepted the fact that the land that was captured by the advancing Turkish army in a WAR, shall be given to the Turkish side to administer after a solution.

All along I though the BBF was our biggest compromise, now I realise that psychologically and practically our biggest compromise has been that the northern part of our island will be under Turkish administration no matter what.

So, I'll repeat:

- we give up the land the turkish army captured as tc administered land
- we turn a blind eye on a war crime and allow 50,000 settlers to remain
- we offer up a rotating presidency which practically means that for a large period of time the executive and all that it entails along with the conflict resolution mechanism of this island will end with 18% dictating to the 82%.
- we offer up separate police forces, separate courts, separate schools separate municipalities.
- we offer up a 50-50 senate between 2 numerically different communities.

We offer all these up and more, and yet we are intransigent. We offer up an apology for all the horrors of the 60's from the 1st Greek Cypriot Citizen and received nothing back regarding the horrors of the invasion and occupation, yet we are racist towards all things Turkish.

All these my friend have not been given up easily by the GC's. All these were given up considering that the status quo gives us the only recognised government on this island, an EU membership, the 3rd best economy in the EU and overall a quality of life envied by many.

If Talat and Turkey refuse all this, then I can see things remaining unchanged or slightly worse for the GC's, worse for Turkey and terminal for the TC's.

I have no personal problem with B25,DT..He keeps singling me out for attack,for some reason...I suspect he is somebody we know who doesn't want to attack me under his/her real /original Nick...all will be revealed I suppose...

DT,I have been trying to bring you guys into the reality of the situation...
I know you believe a BBF is a big compromise for the GCs ,but you fail to see that it would be an even bigger compromise for the TCs...Whether you or the World recognise it or not,the TCs now have their own state,and their worst fears,fear for their lives,have been put to rest...You do not see this,because you do not appreciate how much the TCs suffered during the 63-74 period...It was my realisation of that which made me try to tell you...Only to cop a lot of abuse...I never wanted to minimise the GC suffering during and after the 74 events. But just wanted to tell you you cannot ignore what happened to the TCs before 74..There is an attitude on this forum that if you talk about the suffering of one side,you must be blind to the suffering of the other..That is not the case...We have to face the realities,DT...It was like this in the past,it is like this now,and it will be like this forever..."This" that I am talking about is the fact that what has been "won" at war cannot possibly be given at the negotiation table, unless there are big compromises made by the losing side...That is the way of the world...look at the Israeli situation if you dont agree with me...

Just sit back and watch all the abuse that will rain on me now...For telling you the way things happen in this world...I always thought you were giving too much weight to the EU card...And understood that you were hoping for a miracle to come along...It is not going to happen...There will not be a solution if that means the TCs will again risk being in the same weak, minority position they were during 63-74...They would rather become totally Turkified than risk going back to those dark years...And I keep telling you for the average TC that would mean going back "Home"!


I am your Friend, DT,that is why I am telling you all this...It is a bitter pill to swollow,but it is the reality I am afraid...