Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Mikki,read carefully what I said...I am talking about the period we were supposed to be partners in a Republic... This is the crucial time,this is what led to everything else inludung the 1974 events

This is where you go wrong Bir. What happened in the 60s didn't happen out of the blue. History is a chain of events, and nothing happens in the vacuum.

As I have shown and provided a ton of evidence, the inter-communal conflict didn't start in the 60s but in the 50s. It was started by the TCs who collaborated with the foreign Imperialists and attacked us. The first burning of homes and shops and the first massacres of innocents were commited by TCs against GCs in 1958.

You were NOT supposed to be "partners in a Republic". You were supposed to be equal citizens, part of an ethnic minority, just like the Muslims/Turks of Greece or Bulgaria, the Greeks in Turkey, or any other minority in any other country. Why should you be "partners" and those others should not? Whats is so special about your tiny community?

All those privileges you extracted on our expense with the 1960 agreements were not fair or what you were supposed to have, but a result of brute force and blackmail. In the 50s you started the inter-communal conflict and people were dying in their 100s, and you (along with Britain and Turkey) were threatening us that if we do not surrender to your demands you will annihilate the whole GC population from half of Cyprus and force partition.

These are the malicious tactics you used against us in order to gain all those privileges and power on our expense, and not because such power and privileges are supposed to be given to an 18% minority.

In 1963 Makarios proposed changes that would make the constitution more fair and democratic. Even after those changes your minority would still have more power and privileges than any other minority in any other country.

But you showed no desire to even negotiate those proposals since you wanted to maintain the 100% of all your ill received gains on our expense. Instead of that you withdrew from the government and you restarted the conflict.

Apparently your plan was to create a conflict so that Turkey could come and "save" you by applying your partition plan (which existed since the 50s). However Lyndon Johnson, the US president, prevented a Turkish invasion in June 1964, and you got yourselves in a conflict which was longer than you initially planned.

And yes, in that conflict you suffered and you had casualties. Nobody denies this. But you were also armed by Turkey and Turkish officers were in Cyprus helping you to harm us. 100s of GCs died too during that conflict, and you had even ethnically cleansed the Armenian Cypriots from their sector in Nicosia!

Today you continue in the same way. You continue collaborating with foreign Imperialists and you blackmail us by keeping half of our island as a hostage trying to extract even more gains on our expense. Or maybe you are going to tell me that your demands are fair and that the TCs are "Supposed to rule north Cyprus"? No mate. Don't confuse what you have the right for, with the ill received gains on our expense. You are NOT supposed to rule over territory which has been inhabited for 1000s of years by a vast majority of GCs. You have no right to legalize the ethnic cleansing against us. So even if your blackmail works, and you force us to accept your terms, this will not be the solution but only part of the problem, just like the 1960 agreements.

Piratis what do you think about reducing a totally unmanageable problem to a lesser but manageable one?

Do you think there was no peaceful way to make the 1960 constitution become fairer and workable?

I don't see anything not peaceful in making proposals.

Obviously that was the idea behind accepting the 1960 agreements. People were dying by the 100s due to the conflict that the TCs started, and on top of that the Turks were threatening us with annihilating the whole GC population from half of Cyprus. So Makarios probably accepted those agreements in order to stop the bloodshed, and later try in a peaceful way to modify them. But as we know the TCs would rather re-start the conflict rather than give up even a single of their ill received gains.

[Piratis]

The TCs did not really know they were struggling for Taksim...Even when they were shouting in the streets "Ya Taksim Ya Olum" (partition or death!)

So you want TCs to be acquitted on the grounds of stupidity?

Very often I see you presenting TCs as the innocent fools that didn't really understand what they were doing and they didn't know what they were saying or demanding. But you don't do the same with GCs. If some GCs did or said something, they are 100% responsible for their words and actions and there can be no "stupidity" excuse for them.

Do you really think that the TCs are more innocent, naive and less intelligent than GCs?

[paliometoxo]

turkey is being backed into a corner and their time is running out in cyprus and they are only digging their grave further by their actions.. so i hope they continue like this

[denizaksulu]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Please reconsider your comment re: the dates. A lot of Greek reports say the Murataga/Sandallar massacre happened at or immediately after the TA actions. The rape of the young Greek girls can only have taken place after the military actions stopped/ceasefire.IMO.

Forgive me Deniz, but I assumed that July came before August. The dates I had in mind were that the Turkish Invasion and its horrors started on the 20th July 1974 and the villagers were killed, according to halil:

He went on saying that they were taken from their homes on the 14th of August after being told by the Greek Cypriots that they were moving to a safer place.

“However women and children were later killed in persecution” he added.

Dodgy dayes? Perhaps. Then we will have to find out the dates for the rapes. Its all horrible.

Lanet olsun.

Dodgy days? One or two days here and there perhaps, but there is a huge expanse between the initial Invasion on the 20th July and the normally accepted dates, as verified by halil, of 14th August and after. Or are you disputing that they even happened after the 20th July; perhaps pre-invasion? Now that would require fresh evidence ...

Sorry, should have been 'dodgy dates'.

[Pyrpolizer]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Probably it was not on "revenge" probably they would have raped them anyway who knows? About the dates obviously you don't know about the rapes on enclaved women that continued up until December 1974...

[YFred]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Probably it was not on "revenge" probably they would have raped them anyway who knows? About the dates obviously you don't know about the rapes on enclaved women that continued up until December 1974...

Considering there were 50000 Turkish soldiers and UN has records of 200 odd rape incidences, are you not creating a mountain out of a mole hill, and bringing all this up now, how does it help in this so called crucial stage of a possible agreement?

[Pyrpolizer]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Probably it was not on "revenge" probably they would have raped them anyway who knows? About the dates obviously you don't know about the rapes on enclaved women that continued up until December 1974...

Considering there were 50000 Turkish soldiers and UN has records of 200 odd rape incidences, are you not creating a mountain out of a mole hill, and bringing all this up now, how does it help in this so called crucial stage of a possible agreement?

Man I just answered the question as to why the TC people in those 3 VILLAGES (which btw are very near to each other) were killed and why at that time. WHY THOSE 3 VILLAGES??? I said it's all in Sevguls book.

About the rapes should I start the same complain story that you TCs accuse the GCs in this forum? You are trying to belittle this tragedy Yfred, I hope Birkibrisli takes a note at last.

[denizaksulu]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Please reconsider your comment re: the dates. A lot of Greek reports say the Murataga/Sandallar massacre happened at or immediately after the TA actions. The rape of the young Greek girls can only have taken place after the military actions stopped/ceasefire.IMO.

Forgive me Deniz, but I assumed that July came before August. The dates I had in mind were that the Turkish Invasion and its horrors started on the 20th July 1974 and the villagers were killed, according to halil:

He went on saying that they were taken from their homes on the 14th of August after being told by the Greek Cypriots that they were moving to a safer place.

“However women and children were later killed in persecution” he added.

Dodgy dayes? Perhaps. Then we will have to find out the dates for the rapes. Its all horrible.

Lanet olsun.

Dodgy days? One or two days here and there perhaps, but there is a huge expanse between the initial Invasion on the 20th July and the normally accepted dates, as verified by halil, of 14th August and after. Or are you disputing that they even happened after the 20th July; perhaps pre-invasion? Now that would require fresh evidence ...

No Oracle, I am not disputing that these terrible things ever happened. We know the dates of the massacres at Murataga and Sandallar, lets have some dates for the rapes of the Greek girls. You are suggesting that Pyros assertions are wrong. I am trying to see how?

[Pyrpolizer]

Mikki,read carefully what I said...I am talking about the period we were supposed to be partners in a Republic... This is the crucial time,this is what led to everything else inludung the 1974 events

This is where you go wrong Bir. What happened in the 60s didn't happen out of the blue. History is a chain of events, and nothing happens in the vacuum.

As I have shown and provided a ton of evidence, the inter-communal conflict didn't start in the 60s but in the 50s. It was started by the TCs who collaborated with the foreign Imperialists and attacked us. The first burning of homes and shops and the first massacres of innocents were commited by TCs against GCs in 1958.

You were NOT supposed to be "partners in a Republic". You were supposed to be equal citizens, part of an ethnic minority, just like the Muslims/Turks of Greece or Bulgaria, the Greeks in Turkey, or any other minority in any other country. Why should you be "partners" and those others should not? Whats is so special about your tiny community?

All those privileges you extracted on our expense with the 1960 agreements were not fair or what you were supposed to have, but a result of brute force and blackmail. In the 50s you started the inter-communal conflict and people were dying in their 100s, and you (along with Britain and Turkey) were threatening us that if we do not surrender to your demands you will annihilate the whole GC population from half of Cyprus and force partition.

These are the malicious tactics you used against us in order to gain all those privileges and power on our expense, and not because such power and privileges are supposed to be given to an 18% minority.

In 1963 Makarios proposed changes that would make the constitution more fair and democratic. Even after those changes your minority would still have more power and privileges than any other minority in any other country.

But you showed no desire to even negotiate those proposals since you wanted to maintain the 100% of all your ill received gains on our expense. Instead of that you withdrew from the government and you restarted the conflict.

Apparently your plan was to create a conflict so that Turkey could come and "save" you by applying your partition plan (which existed since the 50s). However Lyndon Johnson, the US president, prevented a Turkish invasion in June 1964, and you got yourselves in a conflict which was longer than you initially planned.

And yes, in that conflict you suffered and you had casualties. Nobody denies this. But you were also armed by Turkey and Turkish officers were in Cyprus helping you to harm us. 100s of GCs died too during that conflict, and you had even ethnically cleansed the Armenian Cypriots from their sector in Nicosia!

Today you continue in the same way. You continue collaborating with foreign Imperialists and you blackmail us by keeping half of our island as a hostage trying to extract even more gains on our expense. Or maybe you are going to tell me that your demands are fair and that the TCs are "Supposed to rule north Cyprus"? No mate. Don't confuse what you have the right for, with the ill received gains on our expense. You are NOT supposed to rule over territory which has been inhabited for 1000s of years by a vast majority of GCs. You have no right to legalize the ethnic cleansing against us. So even if your blackmail works, and you force us to accept your terms, this will not be the solution but only part of the problem, just like the 1960 agreements.

Piratis what do you think about reducing a totally unmanageable problem to a lesser but manageable one?

Do you think there was no peaceful way to make the 1960 constitution become fairer and workable?

I don't see anything not peaceful in making proposals.

Obviously that was the idea behind accepting the 1960 agreements. People were dying by the 100s due to the conflict that the TCs started, and on top of that the Turks were threatening us with annihilating the whole GC population from half of Cyprus. So Makarios probably accepted those agreements in order to stop the bloodshed, and later try in a peaceful way to modify them. But as we know the TCs would rather re-start the conflict rather than give up even a single of their ill received gains.

The proposals per se were of course peaceful. But did we really stick to improving the 1960 constitution in a peaceful manner? By the term WE I mean both GCs and TCs. Imo no, and imo we should have been wiser in how we should have handled the problems of the 1960 constitution WITHOUT any form of violence.

This brings us to my 2nd question which you did not answer. The situation of today's status quo is not manageable. A solution based 100% on human rights which seems to be your unbent option, is not possible either. All we have to look for is for a solution guaranteeing BASIC human rights.This will bring us to the point where the Cyprus problem will get manageable, and slowly slowly get improved by peaceful means.

[Pyrpolizer]

ON A SIDE NOTE, I HOPE THE DISCUSSION DOES NOT CONCENTRATE ON THIS:

There is absolutely no official names record for the rapes. The obvious reason is because the victims should have been protected from publicity. I am sure you all know how precious the virginity of a woman was at those days.It was almost impossible for non virgins to find a husband...

There were rumors for some girls and women at my neighborhood after 1974 that they were raped by the Turks. NONE of them today lives in Cyprus, they all emmigrated. Accidental???
I still remember one woman at her 40s with 3 children. She was among the enclaved while her husband was shipped captive in Turkey for a few months. That woman was having crises all the time, screaming hysterically she wanted to go back to her "pashias". Rumors said she and other women from the same village were used as whores and were forced to take drugs to participate in the orgy. Today she and her family live in Australia.

The biggest evidence however came from my own mother who was a nurse at the Nicosia General hospital. In late 1974 Klerides legalized the abortions to give the chance to all those who were raped to have a safe medical care.. I can never forget the horror on my mothers face coming home and telling us "My God they brought another 100 of those girls today"