Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

NB. the village were one survived was Tokhni. That was elsewhere, had nothing to do with the 3 above. A different case.

[Pyrpolizer]

We often hear from Bir and other TCs that Talat it totally tied by Turkey in doing what they want.

The question is: did the TCs know what they were upto when they started their Taksim struggle? Have they ever predicted they would eventually end up puppets in the hands of Turkey? When exactly after 1974 did they realize this reality?

Given the fact today the are absolutely certain what it means to be in the hands of Turkey:
Are they in a position to predict what would happen if we have Turkey as a guarantor in a solution?

Pyro,
The TCs did not really know they were struggling for Taksim...Even when they were shouting in the streets "Ya Taksim Ya Olum" (partition or death!) they were only countering the demand for Enosis...Denktas and the TMT knew what they were doing of course,but they were ultra Turkish nationalists,they do not see anything wrong with being subjected to Turkey...They welcome it...After 1963 when over a hundred villages were evacuated and some 30,000 people became refugees (a quarter of the population!),these people saw no other option but keep up with the struggle...During 63-74,the dark years to be a TC in Cyprus,the TCs only managed to survive with Turkey's help,long enough till they found a way to emmigrate...This is what you need to understand,Pyro...The average TC does not see himself as a puppet...He/she is grateful that Turkey came in 74 and saved them from what they truly believed was a terrible fate... And they will always be grateful...

Was taksim the ONLY way to counter the GC demand for Enosis?
Weren't there any other peaceful ways?
Why the TCs started preparing enclaves from the day 1 the Republic was formed? (Kuchuk used the money he took from the British for the varoshia to buy massively lands north of Nicosia from day 1.)
Why they were secretly importing armaments from 1960-1962 when the GCs were practically armless?
Why they chose an armed struggle against the GCs who were the majority? Did they expect to win, or was their loses and suffering predictable?

Dont the average TC bear any responsibility by not even knowing what their Taksim struggle would lead them? Only the average GCs is to be loaded with responsibility for wanting Enosis?

And finally Bir, now this day of 2010 that everything is crystal clear, please also answer my 2nd question (highlighted in red)

[Oracle]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

[denizaksulu]

We often hear from Bir and other TCs that Talat it totally tied by Turkey in doing what they want.

The question is: did the TCs know what they were upto when they started their Taksim struggle? Have they ever predicted they would eventually end up puppets in the hands of Turkey? When exactly after 1974 did they realize this reality?

Given the fact today the are absolutely certain what it means to be in the hands of Turkey:
Are they in a position to predict what would happen if we have Turkey as a guarantor in a solution?

Pyro,
The TCs did not really know they were struggling for Taksim...Even when they were shouting in the streets "Ya Taksim Ya Olum" (partition or death!) they were only countering the demand for Enosis...Denktas and the TMT knew what they were doing of course,but they were ultra Turkish nationalists,they do not see anything wrong with being subjected to Turkey...They welcome it...After 1963 when over a hundred villages were evacuated and some 30,000 people became refugees (a quarter of the population!),these people saw no other option but keep up with the struggle...During 63-74,the dark years to be a TC in Cyprus,the TCs only managed to survive with Turkey's help,long enough till they found a way to emmigrate...This is what you need to understand,Pyro...The average TC does not see himself as a puppet...He/she is grateful that Turkey came in 74 and saved them from what they truly believed was a terrible fate... And they will always be grateful...

To Pyro through Bir's post.:

Last weekend I went to a friends house. They are from Famagusta but originally from Balalan. His father-in-law was over from Cyprus for a visit. As usual, I bring the topic up about the TMT. The father-in-law was the TMT man of the village. I asked a few questions of him. He told us how he was sworn into the TMT over a pistol and Koran. He swore that he would defend his village by whatever means were then available.
One question I asked was, "did they tell you anything about 'Taksim/Partition?". He said definitely NOT. He re-iterated that no one in the village(TMT members that is) ever discussed partition. They only discussed ways to defend themselves against any possible attack by the neighboring Greeks or others. When I pushed him on my original question, he said, the politicians may have discussed this but not themselves.

Make from this what you will. I believe the same was in Kophinou. I knew the people at the top and no one ever mentioned the 'teshkilat/TMT or partition' but only the defence of their villages.

[Pyrpolizer]

Hi,Kikapu...I already said my goodbyes to this thread but i cannot let your post go unanswered...You have put a lot of effort into writing it,and I have no doubt you sincerely believe in what you say...

Let me say this from the start...I am the same person who for years came here and advocated a Unitary state solution based entirely on one vote one value system,and without any ethnic considerations or affirmative actions...I am also the same person who believes that the best way out of this situation is to assert our Cypriotness and push our ethnicity in the background...It makes sense to me to focus on our similarities than our diffrences...Any solution that will highlight our ethnicities will only work to cement the old bittreness and resentment...That is still my belief....However...It takes 2 to tango...I have realised that neither side are ready and able to dance to my or your tunes...I will tell you why...The TCs are not ready and able (and I am talking about those in the dispora as well) for the same reason that a trauma patient would not be able to return to the scene of his/her pain and suffering or be able to face his/her abuser without an intensive therapy and rehabilitation process...Now sometimes this therapy might include taking the patient back to the scene or make her confront her abuser,but that would have to be done under strict guidelines and precautions...In Cyprus this has not taken place...We have wasted precious time in denials and acusations and counter accusations,only to make healing almost impossible...On the other hand the GCs are not ready and able because they have been brainwashed from the beginning by their education and their Church...Enosis was their legitimate right,they believed,and when that was frustrated the TCs became the butt of their bitterness and resentment ..In GC eyes we became a despised minority who always reminded them of the Ottoman times,towards whom they could target their feelings or anger,vengence and hatred...I do not have any doubts that this Forum reflects the reality in the streets of Cyprus...Now,I am NOT saying that the TCs have not been equally brainwashed...I am not saying they are not harbouring similar feelings towards the GCs...I believe they do...So when you have 2 sides with so much physical and emotional baggage,who have no trust,respect or understanding for each other,you cannot expect them to get together and live in harmony,no matter how noble and desirable you or I think that might be...

Just look at the treatment we get here in this Forum...There are notable exceptions I know,and I am sorry I cannot say much to comfort our dear,decent GC compatriots... Unfortunately they find themselves as good apples in a basket of rotten ones and they cannot help the situation any more than you and I can...Day in day out we are told we are Ottoman remnants,unwelcomed guests,neo-imperialists,neo-colonialists,thieves,rapists and murderers...Not to mention more mild insults like liars,idiots,degenerates,and as one famously calls us "Turks" as if that is the biggest insult you could bestow on anyone...

Our pain and suffering is minimised,excused,justified,and most often totally denied...And when we talk about our personal trauma we are ridiculed,and accused of bringing everything upon ourselves as we are tools for Turkey's territorial ambitions...We are not really Cypriots but Turks who are somehow less patriotic or disloyal to our country,because we refused to let them present our motherland to Greece on a plate...

The best solution I can advocate now is a BBF with a "mild" Federal system,as an interim solution...Lets have as much democracy and EU principles as we can accomodate,and lets make sure neither Constituent State can unilaterally cecede from the Federated entity,and make sure as much land as possible changes hands to satisfy the right of return of as many refugees as possible,but let us also have some guarantees which will make the TCs sleep better at night in their own homes... A formula can be found perhaps where all the Turkish soldiers leave the island but the protection and the guarantees remain for some time,till we have the opportunity to build mutual understanding and trust...

I did not move lightly to this position,dear Kikapu,and I know it is very difficult to argue logically or intellectually with your democracy and human rights push...I know my arguments are mostly emotional,but they make sense to me...And they obviously make a lot of sense to the TCs...I am also aware that we have alternative lives now,and we do not live in Cyprus and need never return...We can be as ideological as the sky,and the solution need not affect us in the least...But when I come here and witness the denials,the insults and the abuse,and listen to those members of my family who still live in Cyprus tell me they couldn't possibly return to the bad old days when it was almost a crime to be a TC,I have no other choice but to sympathise...

Very good post Bir, but why do you pay so much attention to the highlighted parts? I don't think anyone has ever called You or Kikapu or Yfred or Deniz "thieves". There is suspicion for VP dealing with the theft matter because VP supports it so much... I don't deny this is a general feeling among GCs as the general feeling among TCs is that the GCs are murderers. But that's that-a general feeling, it does not extend to a personal feeling. So please take things for their true measurement.

Then we also have to think of what happens in REAL life. Do you think within a group of GCs + TCs meeting somewhere -anywhere either in the northern or southern area such name calling and accusasions are easy to come out? In REAL LIFE my friend everybody keeps QUIET. They will keep QUIET after a solution too. What is needed is to have a fair settlement, where the majority of people will get the chance to put everything behind. The 1963 and 1974 generation will soon die, so we have new generations that will not know/remember anything.
We need a fair solution first.

[denizaksulu]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Please reconsider your comment re: the dates. A lot of Greek reports say the Murataga/Sandallar massacre happened at or immediately after the TA actions. The rape of the young Greek girls can only have taken place after the military actions stopped/ceasefire.IMO.

[Oracle]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Please reconsider your comment re: the dates. A lot of Greek reports say the Murataga/Sandallar massacre happened at or immediately after the TA actions. The rape of the young Greek girls can only have taken place after the military actions stopped/ceasefire.IMO.

Forgive me Deniz, but I assumed that July came before August. The dates I had in mind were that the Turkish Invasion and its horrors started on the 20th July 1974 and the villagers were killed, according to halil:

He went on saying that they were taken from their homes on the 14th of August after being told by the Greek Cypriots that they were moving to a safer place.

“However women and children were later killed in persecution” he added.

[denizaksulu]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Please reconsider your comment re: the dates. A lot of Greek reports say the Murataga/Sandallar massacre happened at or immediately after the TA actions. The rape of the young Greek girls can only have taken place after the military actions stopped/ceasefire.IMO.

Forgive me Deniz, but I assumed that July came before August. The dates I had in mind were that the Turkish Invasion and its horrors started on the 20th July 1974 and the villagers were killed, according to halil:

He went on saying that they were taken from their homes on the 14th of August after being told by the Greek Cypriots that they were moving to a safer place.

“However women and children were later killed in persecution” he added.

Dodgy dayes? Perhaps. Then we will have to find out the dates for the rapes. Its all horrible.

Lanet olsun.

[Oracle]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

It is all written In Sevgul Ulutag book. Some GC perverts used those 3 villages as their whore place. They were even sodomizing on TC boys. When they saw the invaders advancing they decided to wipe off the 3 villages to erase evidence.
The result? 1000s of under-aged GC girls were raped by the Turks in revenge.

The dates are wrong for this to be any form of "revenge" by Turks. More likely the other way around, or am I missing something?

Please reconsider your comment re: the dates. A lot of Greek reports say the Murataga/Sandallar massacre happened at or immediately after the TA actions. The rape of the young Greek girls can only have taken place after the military actions stopped/ceasefire.IMO.

Forgive me Deniz, but I assumed that July came before August. The dates I had in mind were that the Turkish Invasion and its horrors started on the 20th July 1974 and the villagers were killed, according to halil:

He went on saying that they were taken from their homes on the 14th of August after being told by the Greek Cypriots that they were moving to a safer place.

“However women and children were later killed in persecution” he added.

Dodgy dayes? Perhaps. Then we will have to find out the dates for the rapes. Its all horrible.

Lanet olsun.

Dodgy days? One or two days here and there perhaps, but there is a huge expanse between the initial Invasion on the 20th July and the normally accepted dates, as verified by halil, of 14th August and after. Or are you disputing that they even happened after the 20th July; perhaps pre-invasion? Now that would require fresh evidence ...

[Piratis]

Whatever,Piratis,Whatever...You go on believing what you want,but we have a saying in Turkish "Gunes balcikla sivanmaz" (Rough meaning: You cannot hide the Truth forever)...The truth will come out and we will all know...In the meanwhile I am still waiting for my gains to be realised on your losses...It has been 41 years and counting,since i lost my country and became a homeless person just to help Denktas achieve his dream of Taksim...Hope to live long enough to see my investment come in...I won't hold my breath however...See you on another thread...perhaps.....

The truth is not hidden Bir. There might be a few uncertainties about specific events, but the big picture is quite clear.

Denktash would tell you that your "investment" was not wasted and that you can return to Cyprus, get a lot of "exchange property" (a lot more than what you left behind), sell it to foreigners and live happily ever after on the expense of the GC refugees.

If you had 10 plots in Insijo, he will give you 15 plots in Lapithos. And then you can sell those plots in Lapithos to some idiot "Oramses" and then come to claim back your own property in the free areas. Now that is what I call "return on investment"!!

And I will tell Denktas where he can stick his "exchange land",but you probably don't believe that,Piratis...We are all thieves and crooks who would sell our mothers ,or our country, for a song,or maybe two songs...

Unfortunately this is the case for the vast majority of TCs. I don't know about you personally. If you asked me some months ago I would say that you are definitely not like that. But it is obvious that you changed. Recently you always agree with Viewpoint.